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RG Junior Member Member # 7098	Posted June 30, 2003 11:13 PM Dear All, I 'am a non EU IT professional. I've been made redundant in the last week of April 2003 and have since stayed in the country (my visa was valid until Sep 2005). Now after almost 2 months I've been offered a job by a company - and they are willing to apply for a work permit. From previous posts on this board, I understand I've not breached any immigration rules, but still want to confirm. Any advice - if I'am in violation of rules - is very much appreciated. Thanks.
Alex Member Member # 54	Posted July 01, 2003 10:32 AM quote: Originally posted by Epiphany: In my opinion, you should be OK. I don't think you are in breach of immigration rules. Not if you haven't been wprking with the old permit. My suggestion would be to get the old Permit changed to the new company's ASAP. Good luck. Actually if you have been stayed without job more than 28 days and if (only IF) the Home Office know about it, you may have trouble - legally you are out of your status after those 28 days. I could not find any information about this on the HO web site, but I know people who had similar problems.
Vinodh Junior Member Member # 7044	Posted July 01, 2003 11:25 AM Hello all I also have smillar experience, last year I was made reduntant and It was three months before I got a new employment and new WP. would that affect my ILR application next year. I am a non EU national IT engineer. please advice. Thanks
RG Junior Member Member # 7098	Posted July 01, 2003 11:27 AM Thanks all for your responses. The company has gone ahead with their workpermit application. I guess, home office would get involved at some stage of the work permit application - so, technically there is a chance of me being caught on the wrong foot. Excuse my paranoia...but is there anything I can do like appeals, etc...if things take this ugly turn? [ July 01, 2003: Message edited by: RG ]
Alex Member Member # 54	Posted July 01, 2003 03:22 PM RG - let us know of the result. Problem is that people asking questions here, but almost never tell us how it's ended.
RG Junior Member Member # 7098	Posted July 01, 2003 03:30 PM Thanks Alex...shall keep you guys posted.
Kayalami Member Member # 5984	Posted July 01, 2003 03:37 PM Technically your work permit is no longer valid after your last day of employment whatever the reason for such may be i.e. redundancy, fired, resigned etc. In this instance you should: 1. Leave the UK - Home Office practice is to give you 28 days to arrange your affairs. 2. Get a new WP approved and Further Leave (permission) To Remain in the UK i.e. FLR. 3. Apply for FLR in any other category. Only non visa nationals can change status in country and even then must meet the requirements of the immigration rules for the particular category. Only exception to switch for visa nationals is they can apply to remain in the UK as the spouse of a settled person. 2 and 3 are tricky because they need to be done before your WP is invalid i.e. before you leave your job as this keeps you in status pending approval of the applications. In any case 2 is difficult as it requires a sponsor. If eligible option 3 is best in that it buys you time. If you did 2 or 3 the Home Office would then be aware that your initial WP is no longer valid. The other way is by the employer informing them when you leave your job. The employer is not legally obliged to tell HO when you leave the job but the HO has stated that such companies will have problems securing WP's in future. Where the employer has advised the HO they (HO) will write to you and give you 28 days to leave the country or change status if eligible. The HO is a large bureacracy so it may be several months before the HO actually send you this letter. The same applies to a change in status - it will take several weeks. You can only appeal against the refusal of an application if: 1. The submitted application was complete i.e. it was on the right form for the right category of FLR, all the required documents have been submitted and the applicant has personally signed the form. 2. On the date the completed application was received by the HO you had valid leave to remain (LTR). In your case you did not have valid LTR after you ceased employment so have no rights of appeal. Remember the WP is 2 step: 1. Approval of WP 2. Change of immigration status to WP Your employer may consider getting the work permit and you then apply in person for a new WP visa at the British Embassy in your country of normal residence/nationality. If you are a non visa national no need to go to embassy - just present the WP at a UK Port of Entry and get Leave To Enter for the duration of the WP. Good Luck [ July 01, 2003: Message edited by: Kayalami ] -------------------- ---audi alteram partem---
RG Junior Member Member # 7098	Posted July 01, 2003 03:52 PM Thanks Kayalami. That was very informative. Wouldn't have hanged around after redundancy had I known this earlier. Was led to believe by past experiences of peers to the contrary...but ignorance of law is no excuse ;-). Shall see how it goes and keep you all informed.
Kayalami Member Member # 5984	Posted July 01, 2003 03:59 PM Forgot to mention - the HO have the discretion to approve applications outside the immigration rules as in your case. My experience is that WP applications in your example are normally not a problem especially given that you only relatively recently left the job i.e. 1-2 months the HO will turn a blind eye to..its when you get to the 3+ months stage when you have a problem. Only thing is that a refusal (of the immigration part of the WP application)in your case can't be appealed. Good Luck [ July 01, 2003: Message edited by: Kayalami ] -------------------- ---audi alteram partem---
Vinodh Junior Member Member # 7044	Posted July 01, 2003 06:36 PM hello kayalami Could you please let us know, simillar situaltion like this will affect the ILR applicaition in future ?.. Thanks
Kayalami Member Member # 5984	Posted July 02, 2003 05:47 PM WP based ILR requires you to have been on WP status for 4 consecutive years. Strictly speaking i.e. according to the Immigration Rules if there is a break between two or more WP issuances as in that of the initial poster then the ILR clock is reset to zero because you lose the WP status after the last date of your employment on the first WP. However if the gap is minimal (INMHO<2mths) then the HO can chose to use their discretion and power to consider cases outside the rules and ignore the break in WP status then issue ILR. This is why it is crucial to get a second WP when you are still working on the initial one then switch to the new employer/role accordingly. Good Luck -------------------- ---audi alteram partem---
Vinodh Junior Member Member # 7044	Posted July 02, 2003 05:59 PM Hello Kalayami thanks very much for your reply. Acutally i was out of job for 4 months when I was made reduntant, after 4 months I managed to get a job and got a new work permit. While I was umemployed I was living in UK with the work permit sponsered by my last employer who made me reduntant. I am due to apply for a ILR early next year, could you let me know whats the likely chances of getting ILR ? many thanks
bhavna Member Member # 6216	Posted July 02, 2003 06:07 PM hi kayalami, as i understand if you lose job, go back to your country and come back with in 3 months (in a category leading to settlement) you can still get ILR. So why there is a need to have the second WP issued while working on the first one ?
Vinodh Junior Member Member # 7044	Posted July 02, 2003 06:20 PM hello kayalami could you please have a look at my prev. message please.. and also If anybody has a simillar experience of mine and got a ILR please advice me.. thanks to all
Alex Member Member # 54	Posted July 02, 2003 06:46 PM quote: Originally posted by bhavna: hi kayalami, as i understand if you lose job, go back to your country and come back with in 3 months (in a category leading to settlement) you can still get ILR. So why there is a need to have the second WP issued while working on the first one ? When you come back, the imm. officer will ask you if you are still working - if you say NO - you will have problems; if you say YES - you commit immigration fraud.
Vinodh Junior Member Member # 7044	Posted July 03, 2003 11:25 AM Hello Epiphany/Kayalami/All others many thanks for your advices, which is very useful and guiding us here in the right direction. once again thanks for this. Epiphany : When I was made reduntant, I haven't received any communication from home office because I was living in a different address than one I gave in the application submitted for WP. But when I was made reduntant my employer had my correct address on the file. Now is there anyway Can I check any communication from HO was sent to me? Many thanks
Kayalami Member Member # 5984	Posted July 03, 2003 12:25 PM Vinodh Junior Member Member # 7044 posted July 02, 2003 05:59 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- " Hello Kalayami thanks very much for your reply. Acutally i was out of job for 4 months when I was made reduntant, after 4 months I managed to get a job and got a new work permit. While I was umemployed I was living in UK with the work permit sponsered by my last employer who made me reduntant. I am due to apply for a ILR early next year, could you let me know whats the likely chances of getting ILR ? many thanks Vinod," >>>The fact that HO approved second WP shows they applied their discretionary powers in your case - I am assuming you did not apply for a new status e.g. student/ visitor between the redundancy and new WP? Consequently they are likely to apply the same discretion when you apply for ILR. Certainly Epiphany's case shows that this is possible. --------------------------------------------- bhavna Junior Member Member # 6216 posted July 02, 2003 06:07 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "hi kayalami, as i understand if you lose job, go back to your country and come back with in 3 months (in a category leading to settlement) you can still get ILR. So why there is a need to have the second WP issued while working on the first one ?" >>>Category's leading to settlement (CLS)require you to maintain this status for a specific time and meet residence criteria. As soon as you leave your job your WP is no longer valid so you fall out of the CLS. However if you have another WP you go back to the status of being in a CLS. Now if your 2nd WP is obtained after your 1st WP is not valid (you left the job) there is a break in CLS. Under the Immigration Rules the Home Office do not have to consider an ILR application in this instance because of the celar break in being in a CLS. However as Epiphany's case shows the Home Office have discretionary powers which they actually use in very many cases. In contrast if your 2nd WP is issued whilst your 1st WP is still valid you remain in CLS - no doubts here and as long as you meet tthe other requirements i.e. able to maintain etc your ILR application is straightforward. Vinodh Junior Member Member # 7044 posted July 03, 2003 11:25 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Hello Epiphany/Kayalami/All others many thanks for your advices, which is very useful and guiding us here in the right direction. once again thanks for this. Epiphany : When I was made reduntant, I haven't received any communication from home office because I was living in a different address than one I gave in the application submitted for WP. But when I was made reduntant my employer had my correct address on the file. Now is there anyway Can I check any communication from HO was sent to me? Many thanks" >>>The Home Office send communication to the address they have on their files. Where the employer notifies the HO that you are no longer working with them they would normally give your latest address to the HO. You may wish to contact the owner of the property you last resided in. Alternativley if you are still on good terms with someone in HR they may tell you if they did inform the HO - only problem is if they haven't they may well do. INMHO I would suggest you leave things as they are. Good Luck [ July 03, 2003: Message edited by: Kayalami ] -------------------- ---audi alteram partem---
Alex Member Member # 54	Posted July 03, 2003 01:01 PM quote: Originally posted by Epiphany: ALEX, Get real mate. Its a real world out out there and things don't always go by the friggin rule book and the Immig officer at the Port of Entry. I PERSONALLY know a guy who was refused a WP because he was without a job for just 2 months - his new employer honestly mentioned in the application form that the guy left his previous job 2 months ago - the Work Permits (UK) immediately refused the application. So - it's real. Besides that my experience shows that the Home Office takes the rules seriously, by the way - if you spent 3 months abroad between your work permits, in most cases it doesn't affect your ILR application - problems start from 6 months and more. But if you are a visa national, lost your job, left the country and trying to come back using visa issued with your WP - you are committing a fraud, because your visa is not valid anymore.
Alex Member Member # 54	Posted July 03, 2003 01:08 PM About discretionary powers - I think real explanation is very simple - in most cases the HO doesn't have a clue if you are still working on your WP or you have lost your job several months ago. If they know - they refuse, if not - they don't.
bhavna Member Member # 6216	Posted July 03, 2003 01:59 PM Hi what i was trying to say is that you were on a work permit.. 1. you lost your job. you go back to your home country.. 2. you get another job in UK with a adifferent company for which you get a new visa stamp issued from consulate in your home country. you come back to UK within 3 months time. So where is any rule being broken upon here ?ILR should be straightforward. Sorry if i am not able to understand your point Kayalami.
Kayalami Member Member # 5984	Posted July 03, 2003 03:19 PM 1. If you are on WP for 4 years continuously you can apply for ILR. 2. If you lose your job anytime during these 4 years are up your WP is not valid anymore. 3. Because your WP is invalid the ILR clock stops counting and is now back to zero. 4. You get a new WP. You start on the 4 year route to ILR again. 5. If the Home Office don't know you lost 1st job and approve 2nd job's WP they will continue counting to 4 years between the 1st and 2nd WP. 6. Because you have left the country the HO will know your 1st WP expired and your thus ILR clock went back to Zero. How do they know this? they will see the visa from embassy for 2nd WP when you apply for ILR. They will only accept 4 years from 2nd WP to give you ILR. 7. If you stay in UK i.e. step 5 your employer can tell the HO you left the job. Even if the employer does not tell HO, the HO will see there has been a gap between 1st and 2nd WP when the application for 2nd WP is submitted how? - You need a reference from previous employer detailing duites and employment period. The HO often ignores this gap especially when its of a short duration (INMHO<3mths) but it does not have to - its doing you a favour. In any case you are double asset to the UK economy because you are pay income tax and NI contributions but not entitled to state help (public funds) if things get tough. 8. Because you left the UK i.e. step 6 its unlikely HO will ignore the gap - but it may do. In this case you need a good lwayer to put forward your case. Good Luck [ July 03, 2003: Message edited by: Kayalami ] -------------------- ---audi alteram partem---
Vinodh Junior Member Member # 7044	Posted July 03, 2003 04:44 PM Hello All many thanks for all of your advices, just wanted to know one more thing, is that advicible to file ILR applicaion through a professional immigration cosultant or on my own ?. Please let me know which is the best and safe way of doing that ? and also if anybody could give me some idea's of how to find a suitable immigration consultant will be much appreciated. thanks
Alex Member Member # 54	Posted July 03, 2003 04:53 PM quote: Originally posted by Kayalami: how? - You need a reference from previous employer detailing duites and employment period.[ July 03, 2003: Message edited by: Kayalami ] Nope - you do not need a reference from previous employer when you apply for a change of employment. People in the Home Office understand that you do not want to inform your employer before you really got a new permit.
Kayalami Member Member # 5984	Posted July 03, 2003 05:30 PM http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/default.asp?PageId=2133 -------------------- ---audi alteram partem---
Alex Member Member # 54	Posted July 03, 2003 06:01 PM quote: Originally posted by Kayalami: http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/default.asp?PageId=2133 This reference applies only to new Tier 2 applications, but about Change of Employment, the Work Permits (UK) says the following: quote: The information you need to send us will depend on the category of application. For most change of employment applications we will already have details of the person, so you do not need to send evidence of their qualifications and experience. http://www.workpermits.gov.uk/default.asp?PageId=2021 Besides that I personally changed my job about 1 year ago and nobody asked me to provided a letter from my current employer to confirm that I am still working for him - however the application form has questions about your employment and putting wrong information there will be (IMHO) considered as a fraud. [ July 03, 2003: Message edited by: Alex ]