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fysicus
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Joined: 17 May 2008
Posts: 699
Location: England
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 Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:42 am Post subject: |
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Reading and logical thinking are clearly not your strongest skills!
ca.funke's example clearly is about the situation that an ID is not accepted for the single reason that it states the "wrong" nationality. Of course, that is discrimination on the basis of nationality! What else can it be?
And if the transaction for which the ID was requested is refused as a result, the repercussions are very clearly not just emotional.
And I am also not a "Fella" |
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ca.funke
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Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 1411
Location: Zürich, CH (Schengen)
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:53 am Post subject: Re: account |
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| fysicus wrote: | | ...I was referring to ca.funke's example that I highlighted in bold in the quote above. Please go ahead, open a booze shop and put a sign like that clearly visible to all customers, refuse to take it away when asked to do so, and see how long it takes before you end up in court... |
While I do not approve of anp´s tone, I think he´s factually right.
Official EU-state agencies are, by law, obliged to accept all EU-issued IDs. How they establish their respective authenticity is their problem.
A private business, however, may IMHO differentiate on factual differences:
- Some European countries (by heart German, Belgium, Finland, Netherlands, possibly more) issue credit-card sized IDs, which all have similar security features, which can easily be verified by everyone.
- France and Italy (only two I know by heart) issue paper based IDs. Personally I don´t like this form, and it can surely be more easily forged.
If a private business sais: We will sell liquor to everyone over 18, who can prove their age through the use of a credit-card type ID, OR credit-card type driving license, OR Passport, is IMHO not discriminating.
Firstly, because they just want to be on the safe side themselves, secondly because everyone (irrespective of nationality) can get a foreign driving license in credit-card size.
Effectively they would be differentiating IDs they consider "secure" vs. "easily forgeable", and every private business should (IMHO) be allowed to do so.
On another note, I find it pretty unbelievable that the European "Union" cannot manage to establish a common form of ID issued to everyone. But that´s another topic.
Rgds, Christian |
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ca.funke
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Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 1411
Location: Zürich, CH (Schengen)
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| fysicus wrote: | | ca.funke's example clearly is about the situation that an ID is not accepted for the single reason that it states the "wrong" nationality. Of course, that is discrimination on the basis of nationality! What else can it be? |
In my example, the poor lady had no idea what she wanted herself. She wanted a passport, saying she cannot accept any IDs.
My Belgian ID was this credit-card type (it shows a little too big here):
And the German ID was this laminated funny type (it shows a little too small here, it´s actually sort-of passport size, although only single layer w/o attached "book"):
So the (helpless) lady said she cannot accept the Belgian ID card, since she considered it an ID, accepting the German "thing" because she thought it is a passport.
Only reason I didn´t object but shut up was, that I didn´t want to come back but wanted the process finished. I was sure that she would be allowed to open the account with either card, but since she was only willing to accept the German one I thought it´s better not to say that this one equally clearly states "Identity Card". She must have overlooked that.
Differentiation was (although not properly executed) ID vs. Passport, NOT Belgian vs. German.
To make it clear: I think any private business should be allowed to differentiate by whatever they want ("Only people wearing yellow shirts will be served"), as long as it´s not something clearly against the law such as "skin colour" or "nationality". |
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fysicus
Sage
Joined: 17 May 2008
Posts: 699
Location: England
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:35 am Post subject: Re: account |
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| ca.funke wrote: | | fysicus wrote: | | ...I was referring to ca.funke's example that I highlighted in bold in the quote above. Please go ahead, open a booze shop and put a sign like that clearly visible to all customers, refuse to take it away when asked to do so, and see how long it takes before you end up in court... |
While I do not approve of anp´s tone, I think he´s factually right.
Official EU-state agencies are, by law, obliged to accept all EU-issued IDs. How they establish their respective authenticity is their problem. |
A business that is legally obliged to check identity of customers, has of course also the obligation to make sure that they can actually do that. And if they choose not to train their staff properly, they can expect problems in this area from time to time, and will not have a valid excuse.
And I maintain that every document that is sufficient to enter the UK, must be accepted as proof of identity, period.
| ca.funke wrote: |
A private business, however, may IMHO differentiate on factual differences:
- Some European countries (by heart German, Belgium, Finland, Netherlands, possibly more) issue credit-card sized IDs, which all have similar security features, which can easily be verified by everyone.
- France and Italy (only two I know by heart) issue paper based IDs. Personally I don´t like this form, and it can surely be more easily forged.
If a private business sais: We will sell liquor to everyone over 18, who can prove their age through the use of a credit-card type ID, OR credit-card type driving license, OR Passport, is IMHO not discriminating. |
That is a completely different situation as in your earlier example. If you had worded it like that, I might have reacted differently. Read your original example again, and see how horribly discriminating it is (of course, I understand it is just an extreme example for the sake of the discussion; not your personal opinion...).
Please note that discrimination is very widely interpreted. If you discriminate, for example, on the basis of hair length (without being a hairdresser) that can be seen as indirect discrimination on the basis of gender, because women tend to have longer hair than men.
| ca.funke wrote: | ... secondly because everyone (irrespective of nationality) can get a foreign driving license in credit-card size.
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There are people who have never passed a driving test, but they should still be able to open bank accounts or buy a bottle of wine. |
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ca.funke
Moderator
Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 1411
Location: Zürich, CH (Schengen)
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:52 am Post subject: Re: account |
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| fysicus wrote: | A business that is legally obliged to check identity of customers, has of course also the obligation to make sure that they can actually do that. And if they choose not to train their staff properly, they can expect problems in this area from time to time, and will not have a valid excuse.
And I maintain that every document that is sufficient to enter the UK, must be accepted as proof of identity, period. |
I think we have two logically comprehensive opinions:
- Whatever allows entry into the UK must be accepted as proof of identity, even by private businesses. VS.
- State agencies are bound by 1), while private businesses may differentiate between what they consider "forge-proof" vs. "not forge-proof", as long as this does not discriminate by nationality, skin colour or any other obviously illegal criteria.
Which of these opinions holds true would be a question for a lawyer/the courts. I guess both sides can find good arguments for their side, and I could live with either outcome.
I tend to support option 2), as I do not see how every sales-clerk in any random corner shop can be trained to verify passports and IDs of ~180 countries in the world, but that´s my opinion only. |
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fysicus
Sage
Joined: 17 May 2008
Posts: 699
Location: England
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:28 am Post subject: Re: account |
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| ca.funke wrote: | | ...as I do not see how every sales-clerk in any random corner shop can be trained to verify passports and IDs of ~180 countries in the world, ... |
I thought we were mainly discussing about EEA-issued ID's here.
If someone shows a passport of an exotic country in a random corner shop, it should have a UK visa (which also mentions a date of birth) in it, and surely this poor sales-clerk should be able to verify the visa (at least to some extent) without having a clue if the country really exists or where on the globe it is located. If they can be trained to recognize forged banknotes, than recognizing forged visas is not a big step. Of course we need to be realistic, and accept that the corner shop is likely to have a lower detection probability of forged documents than Immigration Control at the airport.
However, to avoid being charged with under-age selling they need to be able to prove that they made a genuine effort to establish the age of customers. |
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javelin
Junior Member
Joined: 18 Jul 2012
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| Directive/2004/38/EC wrote: | | javelin wrote: | | Directive, I was asking if you have experienced what you said about the Commission's interest in all sorts of things that hinder free movement.. |
I am not sure what you are asking |
When you say that about the Commission's interest, is it wishful thinking, something you read somewhere or do you have any concrete examples to back it up? Sorry if it is still not clear. |
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anp
Member of Standing
Joined: 05 May 2009
Posts: 158
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:34 am Post subject: |
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Talking about "discrimination", these are only a few examples of the ID cards across Europe. At least in UK, there is none of that crap, and we should all be thankful for that.
In Germany, Driving Licenses are not acceptable form of ID.
In Greece, if you get stopped and cannot produce the so-called POLICE ID you could be taken into a police station. Except name, surname, birthday etc, also included was (is?) RELIGION!! Can you believe it?
In Hungary, businesses are required by law to accept PASSPORTS or DRIVING LICENSES, but they DO NOT. They only accept ID cards. If stopped and you don't have it with you you may be detained for 24 hours.
In Latvia, same ID cards are issued to citizens and non-citizens.
In Netherlands, there is a 50 Euro fine if you fail to produce an ID when legally required.
In Poland, non-citizens are required by law to ALWAYS carry ID with them. It is also obligatory (18+) whether you have a passport or not. If not, 1 month of "restriction of freedom" or fine.
In Spain, it is required by law for EVERYONE to carry an ID, ALL THE TIME.
In Italy, it is NOT required by law to carry it, but it's so outdated that if you have one it is probably in the same format as your grandparents'.
Please note that national ID cards were primarily produced to facilitate TRAVELING within EEA and basic services. If you are planning to settle in UK be courteous and respectful enough to get a UK ID. Provisional Driving Licenses are fairly simple to get.
Compared with other EEA countries, UK isn't asking much at all from you.
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fysicus
Sage
Joined: 17 May 2008
Posts: 699
Location: England
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| anp wrote: | In Germany, Driving Licenses are not acceptable form of ID.
In Greece, if you get stopped and cannot produce the so-called POLICE ID you could be taken into a police station. Except name, surname, birthday etc, also included was (is?) RELIGION!! Can you believe it?
In Hungary, businesses are required by law to accept PASSPORTS or DRIVING LICENSES, but they DO NOT. They only accept ID cards. If stopped and you don't have it with you you may be detained for 24 hours.
In Latvia, same ID cards are issued to citizens and non-citizens.
In Netherlands, there is a 50 Euro fine if you fail to produce an ID when legally required.
In Poland, non-citizens are required by law to ALWAYS carry ID with them. It is also obligatory (18+) whether you have a passport or not. If not, 1 month of "restriction of freedom" or fine.
In Spain, it is required by law for EVERYONE to carry an ID, ALL THE TIME.
In Italy, it is NOT required by law to carry it, but it's so outdated that if you have one it is probably in the same format as your grandparents'.
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I have no idea which point you are trying to prove here, your post is more like random shouting. Passports or ID cards issued by any EU country are valid in any other EU country. If you disagree with that simple statement, please provide a counter-example supported by documentary proof. Or just shut up! |
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javelin
Junior Member
Joined: 18 Jul 2012
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:00 pm Post subject: Re: account |
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| fysicus wrote: | | If an organisation (private or not) has a (legal) obligation to establish the identity (or age) of someone they are dealing with (as banks do indeed have, at least for some operations, as well as retailers selling alcoholic drinks), they have to accept the same sort of evidence as government agencies. |
I'm afraid some parts of the UK are somewhat 3rd worldish in this respect.
See here for a long list of people saying that their eea card was rejected. I'm still to hear about one case of someone who complained to the authorities successfully. I wonder what has been like in other EEA countries.
Not much helpful poster from Portsmouth City Council:
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anp
Member of Standing
Joined: 05 May 2009
Posts: 158
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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| fysicus wrote: | | I have no idea which point you are trying to prove here, your post is more like random shouting. Passports or ID cards issued by any EU country are valid in any other EU country. If you disagree with that simple statement, please provide a counter-example supported by documentary proof. Or just shut up! |
We were talking about "discrimination", weren't we?
This proves your ignorance and lack of common sense. You are out of touch with the reality. Read what has been presented to you this far, and just try to put the dots together!!
You can't see the sky through a bamboo tube! (Chinese proverb)
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ca.funke
Moderator
Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 1411
Location: Zürich, CH (Schengen)
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| anp wrote: | | ...Talking about "discrimination", these are only a few examples of the ID cards across Europe. At least in UK, there is none of that crap, and we should all be thankful for that. ... |
I am quite happy to possess my national ID, as it allows me to travel to many places without carrying an impractical passport.
I like to carry my ID with me at all times, as if work requires me to fly to London in 1 hour from now I can go straight to the airport without passing by at home. My ID is always in my wallet.
Additionally I like to have an ID when I travel further afield, as carrying both passport and ID in seperate places allows me (in many cases) to lose one of them, without ending up in an considerably inconvenient situation (=having to go to "my" Embassy in the country I´m stuck in, apply for a new passport + wait until it is issued).
I am convinced that UK citizens would equally embrace IDs, if the general public would understand (and be assured that it will always remain this way) that
- obtaining an ID is voluntary
- carrying it at all times is NOT a requirement
By the way:
- In Germany you are required to possess an acceptable form of ID (meaning an actual ID or a passport), but you're NOT required to carry it on the person (understand exactly what "possess" means
 ).
- In the Netherlands you´re required to carry an acceptable form of ID with you at all times. I´m not sure how this is defined in detail.
- In Belgium you´re required to possess acceptable form of ID and carry it with you, as soon as you are more than 50 metres away from your place of permanent residence (i.e. would be able to take police straight to it within a minute or two...).
If I were a UK citizen, I would be severely p*ss** off for not being able to obtain a credit-card ID, as I don´t like to carry the full blown passport with me, which my work requires me to (for travel).
Also, the way in which the few UK national ID cards were issued and then >>suddenly declared invalid<< isn´t worthy of any normal "first world" state. See also their >>FAQ<< around the matter: | Quote: | What happens if I am already abroad when identity cards cease to be valid as travel documents and I do not have a passport?
You should make arrangements to visit the British embassy/high commission or consular office in the country you are visiting to discuss your circumstances. Depending upon the duration of your stay, they may be able to arrange for either an emergency travel document to be issued or a new passport to be requested. A fee will be payable for either an emergency travel document or a new passport, please consult the Foreign and Commonwealth Office website (Opens in a new window) for details of the office details and requirements.
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May I close by saying that your | anp wrote: | | ...At least in UK, there is none of that crap, and we should all be thankful for that... |
comment, to me, seems pretty drastic:
If my suggestion (voluntary ID, not required to carry it with you at any stage) would become a reality, this wouldn´t influence you in any way. You may remain IDless and won´t suffer in any way.
However, your strict refusal of the scheme in genaral would stop me from getting what I want.
You´re forcing your "ideals" down my throat, while in return I do not want to do the same.
Last but not least, I´d be willing to pay for the scheme in the form of a fee for the ID, so only those who want one have to pay for it. I´m pretty sure that most central European countries issuing IDs make a profit from them, given there is a fee for a card that can be produced for a couple of cents...
Regards,
Christian
Last edited by ca.funke on Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:14 am; edited 4 times in total |
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fysicus
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Joined: 17 May 2008
Posts: 699
Location: England
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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anp, if any one lacks common sense, is out of touch with the reality or is looking through a bamboo tube, it is you.
Ok, let's examine a few quotes of yours:
| Quote: | | In Spain, it is required by law for EVERYONE to carry an ID, ALL THE TIME. |
Very helpfully, you wrote EVERYONE in capitals, emphasizing that there is no discrimination involved here.
Same in the Netherlands, EVERYONE (over the age of 14) must be able to prove their identity if asked so by a police officer. Acceptable forms of identification include passports (issued by any country), ID cards and driving licences (issued by any EU country), again no discrimination involved as far as I can see.
| Quote: | | In Germany, Driving Licenses are not acceptable form of ID |
Again, who is being discriminated against here? |
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thsths
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Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Posts: 704
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| anp wrote: | | Surely, not accepting for instance a silly old ITALIAN Carta d´Identita (still very much in use by the way) will not get me into prison, will it? |
With this tone I think it very much could. You really should read up on discrimination legislation and casework - it is quite an interesting field. I think the bottom line is that if it is good enough for the UK government, then you are really asking for trouble if you think it is not good enough for you. Especially if you single out a specific nationality, as you keep doing. |
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anp
Member of Standing
Joined: 05 May 2009
Posts: 158
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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EEA ID Cards would be welcomed by all countries and would not be met with resilience should they there be common requirements, elements and legislation. Don't get me wrong, they are a good thing to have. My previous examples prove that as it stands, it's a total mess. Every government apply them as they see fit. Unless they implement the 2006 draft http://www.statewatch.org/news/2006/dec/eu-id-cards.pdf, (especially the biometric identifiers) then there will always be issues.That is my disagreement with some of you. It is about the lack of uniformity of the EEA ID cards across Europe. It is for this reason that the "discrimination" claims are just baseless and embarrassing.
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Last edited by anp on Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Directive/2004/38/EC
Guru
Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 6420
Location: does not matter if you are with your EEA family member
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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OK, time to move on. If you want to discuss this further, please start a new thread.
_________________
Directive 2004/38/EC lays out free movement rules for EU citizens and their non-EU family members
See blog |
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javelin
Junior Member
Joined: 18 Jul 2012
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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You guys easily give in to futile arguments on unsubstantiated opinions about what the law is but when it comes to facts, solutions, results, they're nowhere to be seen.
Now I see why Directive won't answer. A quick read through this forum and one can easily see that the commission doesn't give a bucketload of warm spit to individual cases. Six months for a reply and a referral to solvit who I also had the privilege of finding that they are very skilful at impersonating moronic idiots.
The commission websites are very encouraging but a good advice would have been: this treaties and laws and whatever are fairy tales bollocks as far as enforcement for ordinary people is concerned and you are better of making your own law and avoid being extorted VAT and duties by all means possible. |
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Directive/2004/38/EC
Guru
Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 6420
Location: does not matter if you are with your EEA family member
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| javelin wrote: | You guys easily give in to futile arguments on unsubstantiated opinions about what the law is but when it comes to facts, solutions, results, they're nowhere to be seen.
Now I see why Directive won't answer. A quick read through this forum and one can easily see that the commission doesn't give a bucketload of warm spit to individual cases. Six months for a reply and a referral to solvit who I also had the privilege of finding that they are very skilful at impersonating moronic idiots.
The commission websites are very encouraging but a good advice would have been: this treaties and laws and whatever are fairy tales bollocks as far as enforcement for ordinary people is concerned and you are better of making your own law and avoid being extorted VAT and duties by all means possible. |
Ok, so now that you are an expert in why I don't answer, why don't you tell us what the Commission should do? How many people working full time would that take? How should they filter what they receive?
Try to describe it in less than 100 paragraphs. And try not to be gratuitously rude in the process. Go...
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Directive 2004/38/EC lays out free movement rules for EU citizens and their non-EU family members
See blog |
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habibcs
Junior Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2012
Posts: 33
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| EUsmileWEallsmile wrote: | | anp wrote: | | I believe Danish ID should be sufficient for your EEA1 & EEA2 applications |
must be |
Denmark does not have ID card.
Only photo card is the Driving License card, but one will not submit this for EEA1 or EEA2 because then the person either cannot drive the car both in London (UK) and Denmark.
If one applies with the Denmark passport, then one cannot fly out from UK to DK or Fly from DK to UK.
Is there any better way? ... in case somebody know this related to Denmark citizen and their visa national spouse.
_________________
Visa National married to EEA National for 3 years. |
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EUsmileWEallsmile
Moderator
Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 4584
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| Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| habibcs wrote: | | EUsmileWEallsmile wrote: | | anp wrote: | | I believe Danish ID should be sufficient for your EEA1 & EEA2 applications |
must be |
Denmark does not have ID card.
Only photo card is the Driving License card, but one will not submit this for EEA1 or EEA2 because then the person either cannot drive the car both in London (UK) and Denmark.
If one applies with the Denmark passport, then one cannot fly out from UK to DK or Fly from DK to UK.
Is there any better way? ... in case somebody know this related to Denmark citizen and their visa national spouse. |
Thanks, I stand corrected. My comment was that a EU issued ID card can be used instead of a passport. Of course, if the EU country doesn't issue them, then the passport is the only option.
Drivers licenses are not accepted by UKBA.
It is possible to submit passport and ask for it to be returned. This does not stop the application for residence documentation from proceeding. |
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