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walrusgumble
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 Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| newlight1 wrote: | Hi there, thanks for your email. Well the changes have not gone though as of yet. Here is a petition against any planned changes. I hope the changes do not go through or are delayed. WHAT....THE POOR CANT HAVE A FAMILY AND BE HAPPY NOW!!!!! Basically is what they are saying.
https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/32167/signature/new
If you are a EU Citizen you have the right to live anywhere in the EU without restriction with your non EU Wife. Ireland is also included. From what I understand is that even if needed too you would be entilited to housing Benefit in Ireland if you needed it which would be helpful as it would give you time to find a job as its almost impossible to just fly into Ireland and have a job waiting there.
Michelangeli, have you applied for a spouse visa as of yet? |
No that is not what it is saying.
It means, and it pretty much always meant or suppose to mean, that if a person from one EU State comes over to another EU state they must "exercise EU Treaty Rights". If they bring non EU family members, they must be in a position to look after them, and not resort to social welfare. (A few very liberal Judgments in the past, has somewhat being stopped by the real law makers via a provision in the directive - Article 24.2 Directive 2004/38EC - Europe is getting fed up with social welfare tourists)
"The Poor" can be happy, in their own country. Why can't the "Poor" not rely upon their own laws in order to get the family member stay in that country?
If you can't comply with reasonable conditions of EU law (ie actually be coming here with a job and not notions of "Job searching" in a State that is making thousands redundant )and live here without resorting to State Welfare , they EU law free movement rights were never suppose to apply to such persons.
Secondly, you are incorrect to say that you have completely non restrictive rights. You must actually be "exercising your Treaty rights". While job hunting is a right , it is a limited for . It may not help to turn your case into a surindeer singh (ie the case you need to rely upon in order to use EU law when you return to UK)
It is worth nothing that these proposals utterly change the face of the Court Interpretation of a "worker" and the liberal conditions set out by the Court. Can't see these proposals do well in Mainland Europe
Last edited by walrusgumble on Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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walrusgumble
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:29 am Post subject: Re: bump with related question |
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| st pauli wrote: | | Just to bump this thread instead of starting my own, does anyone know what the 'period of time' the OP mentions is exactly - i.e. how long a British citizen has to live with his non-EU spouse in Ireland before they could settle permanently in the UK and be treated as exercising treaty rights in the UK as they were in Ireland? |
There is no actual time limit. Normally 1 year would help |
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agniukas
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| well, without a visa, his spouse won't be able to leave Ethiopia, would she? |
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Directive/2004/38/EC
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Location: does not matter if you are with your EEA family member
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| walrusgumble wrote: | | If you can't comply with reasonable conditions of EU law (ie actually be coming here with a job and not notions of "Job searching" in a State that is making thousands redundant )and live here without resorting to State Welfare , they EU law free movement rights were never suppose to apply to such persons. |
If you read the law, you will see that they is ALWAYS an initial period of 90 days in which there is no requirement that the EU citizen be doing anything. There are "no conditions" on the EU citizen in this period
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Directive 2004/38/EC lays out free movement rules for EU citizens and their non-EU family members
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walrusgumble
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Directive/2004/38/EC wrote: | | walrusgumble wrote: | | If you can't comply with reasonable conditions of EU law (ie actually be coming here with a job and not notions of "Job searching" in a State that is making thousands redundant )and live here without resorting to State Welfare , they EU law free movement rights were never suppose to apply to such persons. |
If you read the law, you will see that they is ALWAYS an initial period of 90 days in which there is no requirement that the EU citizen be doing anything. There are "no conditions" on the EU citizen in this period |
I am referring to after the 90 days. What then? Your comment in no way rebuts or changes what I said
If you read what I had said , I implied the 90 days by asking the post to take that period of job seeking aside.
Either way, you have no right to social during this period, unless you are working etc. |
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st pauli
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| What is this 90 days in relation to? |
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st pauli
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| agniukas wrote: | | well, without a visa, his spouse won't be able to leave Ethiopia, would she? |
Yes is what I imagined would be the case. I obviously can't just say...''yeah, I'm gonna exercise my treaty rights in Ireland and she's coming with me'' and have that be it, as we're motioned onto the plane with a smile. So I'm wondering what paperwork she needs in the first place, to get to Ireland with me before I've even registered to live there. I can't imagine a standard tourist visa would be appropriate for this. |
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Directive/2004/38/EC
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| st pauli wrote: | | So I'm wondering what paperwork she needs in the first place, to get to Ireland with me before I've even registered to live there. I can't imagine a standard tourist visa would be appropriate for this. |
She needs only the equivalent of a tourist visa. You need to provide a copy of your passport, and the marriage certificate. Done.
http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/04/15/requirements-for-a-short-stay-visa-family-of-eu-citizen/
The requirements for the initial entry visa are discussed extensively in ECJ case C-157/03, Commission v Spain [2005]. The judge notes:
| Quote: | | 36. Therefore, those family members are required to carry out the formalities governing residence before entering Spanish territory, failing which the issue of the [visa] will be refused. |
The judge then prohibits Spain from requiring the formalities of a Residence application as part of the visa process:
| Quote: | | 38. Consequently, the residence visa requirement laid down by the Spanish rules in order to obtain a residence permit and, consequently, the refusal to issue such a permit to a third-country national who is a member of the family of a Community national, on the ground that he or she should first have applied for a residence visa at the Spanish consulate in their last place of domicile thus constitutes a measure contrary to the provisions of Directives 68/360, 73/148 and 90/365. |
Directive 2004/38/EC is also clear that the formalities of a Registration Certificate for the EU citizen and a Residence Card for the non-EU family member can only be required after the person has been resident in the host member state for at least three months:
| Quote: | Article 8 - Administrative formalities for Union citizens
1. Without prejudice to Article 5(5), for periods of residence longer than three months, the host Member State may require Union citizens to register with the relevant authorities.
2. The deadline for registration may not be less than three months from the date of arrival.
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| Quote: | Article 9- Administrative formalities for family members who are not nationals of a Member State
1. Member States shall issue a residence card to family members of a Union citizen who are not nationals of a Member State, where the planned period of residence is for more than three months.
2. The deadline for submitting the residence card application may not be less than three months from the date of arrival. |
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Directive 2004/38/EC lays out free movement rules for EU citizens and their non-EU family members
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st pauli
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks a lot for that, article 38 in particular there makes things clearer.
So no registration is required whatsoever for 90 days, but from what I can gather after that time you need to either have a job or show that you can support yourself without becoming a burden on social services - how much savings tends to be sufficient to demonstrate that? |
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walrusgumble
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| st pauli wrote: | Thanks a lot for that, article 38 in particular there makes things clearer.
So no registration is required whatsoever for 90 days, but from what I can gather after that time you need to either have a job or show that you can support yourself without becoming a burden on social services - how much savings tends to be sufficient to demonstrate that? |
There is no limit. Please see Article 8 of the Directive 2004 / 38 EC.
Then google the Commission Guidelines on Interpreting Directive 2004 / 38 EC. Commission Opinion Paper. Summer 2009 |
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Ben
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| newlight1 wrote: | | From what I understand is that even if needed too you would be entilited to housing Benefit in Ireland if you needed it which would be helpful as it would give you time to find a job as its almost impossible to just fly into Ireland and have a job waiting there. |
No Housing Benefit in Ireland I'm afraid. We have Rent Supplement, but it's a pittance and extremely restrictive.
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kay275
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry for bumping this up...
how long do I need to be working in Ireland before I can apply for my spouse visa??
Do we have to live together in Ireland for 6 months before we can apply for a residence permit?? |
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Freda
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:49 pm Post subject: I'm in the same boat |
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Just to add to this.. I am a UK citizen and my husband is Tanzanian. I too am hoping Ireland will be a good alternative to avoid UK immigration. I am currently in the UK, he is in Tanzania, and next week I am going to Dublin. We will then apply for the 'Spouse/Child - Qualifying Family Members who wish to JOIN EU Citizen in Ireland' Visa (see http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Join%20Family#NON_EEA_Family_Member_of_EU_Citizen), and once approved he can fly over and join me.
I really hope this works.
The Visa application states there must be 'Evidence that the EU Citizen spouse is lawfully in Ireland'. Now my plan is to stay in a hostel or with friends until the visa is approved, as I don't want to spend all that money on a deposit and flat, only to have the visa denied and me leave Ireland to go see him in Tanzania.
So my question is, what would be acceptable evidence of being there apart from a flat lease, or work contract (I have no job there yet either). Would a letter from my friend, or from the hostel, be sufficient? Or my flight details? What are they looking for - a photo of me beside the sign for Dublin?
Anyone done this before? |
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Ben
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:40 am Post subject: |
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Yes that's fine. For the first three months following your entry to Ireland, your right of residence is unconditional. Your spouse is entitled to join you. All that needs to be submitted by your spouse in order to receive the EUTR visa to which he is entitled, is his passport, your passport (or copy) and your marriage certificate.
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Monifι
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Ben wrote: | | newlight1 wrote: | | From what I understand is that even if needed too you would be entilited to housing Benefit in Ireland if you needed it which would be helpful as it would give you time to find a job as its almost impossible to just fly into Ireland and have a job waiting there. |
No Housing Benefit in Ireland I'm afraid. We have Rent Supplement, but it's a pittance and extremely restrictive. |
A pittance? (Going slightly off topic) I have to strongly disagree that Rent Supplement is "a pittance." It is HUGE. If I was entitled to Rent Supplement, which I am not because neither me nor my husband are in receipt of any social welfare benefits, we would be able to rent a nice 2 bedroom apartment and only have to contribute 30 per month towards it. Rent supplement is what is propping up the extortionate rental prices.
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Ben
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| Monifι wrote: | | A pittance? (Going slightly off topic) I have to strongly disagree that Rent Supplement is "a pittance." It is HUGE. If I was entitled to Rent Supplement, which I am not because neither me nor my husband are in receipt of any social welfare benefits, we would be able to rent a nice 2 bedroom apartment and only have to contribute 30 per month towards it. Rent supplement is what is propping up the extortionate rental prices. |
I don't know who's been telling you that. As a couple, the very least you'd have to pay would be 151.67 per month.
In the example of a couple with two children, both in receipt of Jobseeker's Benefit and living in Waterford (550 max rent):
Weekly combined JB income = 435.60.
Deduct SWA rate of 370.40 = 65.20 (weekly assessable income).
Add Household Contribution of 35.00 = 100.20 total contribution to rent.
550 * 12 / 52 = 126.92 weekly equivalent rent.
Less 100.20 total contribution to rent = 26.72 weekly rent supplement award.
26.72 = 115.80 Rent Supplement per month. UK Housing Benefit, for a similar sized city in the UK, would be £495 (629) per month - nearly 5 and a half times a much.
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st pauli
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:08 pm Post subject: Re: I'm in the same boat |
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| Freda wrote: | Just to add to this.. I am a UK citizen and my husband is Tanzanian. I too am hoping Ireland will be a good alternative to avoid UK immigration. I am currently in the UK, he is in Tanzania, and next week I am going to Dublin. We will then apply for the 'Spouse/Child - Qualifying Family Members who wish to JOIN EU Citizen in Ireland' Visa (see http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Join%20Family#NON_EEA_Family_Member_of_EU_Citizen), and once approved he can fly over and join me.
I really hope this works.
The Visa application states there must be 'Evidence that the EU Citizen spouse is lawfully in Ireland'. Now my plan is to stay in a hostel or with friends until the visa is approved, as I don't want to spend all that money on a deposit and flat, only to have the visa denied and me leave Ireland to go see him in Tanzania.
So my question is, what would be acceptable evidence of being there apart from a flat lease, or work contract (I have no job there yet either). Would a letter from my friend, or from the hostel, be sufficient? Or my flight details? What are they looking for - a photo of me beside the sign for Dublin?
Anyone done this before? |
I'm still trying to wrap my head around all this EU immigration stuff with relation to Ireland - am I right that this visa is different to the EU4FAM card, which takes quite a few months to get? And the main difference is that on the entry visa (the one you're applying for now for your husband) the spouse is not permitted to WORK, just to remain?
This is the impression I've got but I''m suffering from information overload on the whole thing. |
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Ben
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:26 pm Post subject: Re: I'm in the same boat |
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| st pauli wrote: | | This is the impression I've got but I''m suffering from information overload on the whole thing. |
Why not start a thread with your query? Someone will be happy to help.
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fibonacci0044
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Location: LONDON
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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hi
can any one tell me in order to be a economic migrant worker can i be self employed in Ireland instead of doing a job
or by running my own business will come in the context of being a economic migrant worker?
like for eg :WILL Having an eBay Trading Account running in Ireland is considered as being self employed, Like in UK?
very much thanks |
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Freda
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Ben wrote: | | Yes that's fine. For the first three months following your entry to Ireland, your right of residence is unconditional. Your spouse is entitled to join you. All that needs to be submitted by your spouse in order to receive the EUTR visa to which he is entitled, is his passport, your passport (or copy) and your marriage certificate. |
Just wanted to say we got the Visa wooP!! They asked for bank statements, payslips etc so I wrote them an angry letter quoting bits out of the EU directive saying none of that is needed and they processed, and approved, it without, Hoooraaaaayyy |
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