Complicated question about stamp 4EUFAM...

[Monifé]

Hi Guys

Bit of a more complex situation now and wondering does anyone have any advice on this matter.

I have found out that I am eligible for a British passport, I am Irish, and my parents are British.

My Fiancé is from Nigeria and is currently an asylum seeker.

1. I am wondering could I avail of the EU directive, once I obtain the British passport, and get a stamp 4EUFAM for him, without having to leave the country to exercise my treaty rights?

2. And does anyone know that if I obtain a british passport, does that mean I denounce my Irish citizenship or am I able to retain both citizenships?

2. And under the directive, I see that family members can mean, your partner (ie: my Fiancé), whose relationship is durable and duly attested, what does this mean? Just proof of the relationship is it?

Thanks in advance guys

[koded]

It will be highly advisable to stick to your Irish passport. Since your status in Ireland is citizen. If you obtain British passport now it will look suspicious if you want to submit an application to 4EUFAM. they may want to know if you have lived in UK.
It may take time for your husband to be issued with 4EUFAM but it is worth having patient. And I think instead of changing passport it is better to move to another EU country and live there for 6 months after your marriage. Sweden would have been better place to move but for the fact that you dont speak Swedish it will be difficult to get a job. but you can as well study and i think it is recognised as having exercise your right in another EU country if you move back to your home country.
I wish you guys all the best.

[Monifé]

Thanks koded.

Why I was thinking of this option is because we could remain engaged for longer, as my family is not very happy about me getting married so soon as I am still young (22).

Does stamp 4EUFAM recognise relationships/engagements, without getting married?

And I thought by law they had to process stamp 4EUFAM within 6 months?

I think if we were to move, we would go to Northern Ireland, as it is still close to family and friends.

Thanks again

[koded]

Sure if both of you are engaged it is recognised as partners. But you need to register your partnership which is somehow the same process of getting married too. I dont know much about Ireland but in other EU countries it is as simple as going to tax office and register your partnership. But your partner must be legal in the country before you can do it.
And for you to obtain 4EUFAM you need to have a certificate of partnership and so many other documents. such as joint account. etc.
Sure, families are not usually happy when they see their younger child or sister getting married to foriegners. But it is your life and you have to live it.
Goodluck!

[Ben]

If Monifé is a British citizen with the right of permanent residence in Ireland, then Monifé's partner may be the partner with whom a Union citizen is in a durable relationship, duly attested and so entitled to have his residence facilitated by Ireland.

First things first, Monifé should apply for the "document certifying permanent residence" to which she is entitled. This is described in Article 19 of Directive 2004/38/EC. It is referred to in Ireland's Statutory Instrument 656 of 2006 (Ireland's transposition of the Directive), in Section 15 (referred to as a "permanent residence certificate"). Monifé should apply for her permanent residence certificate straight away, using form EU2. It's free and must be issued as soon as possible. Note that submission of Monifé's British passport (better apply for one at the British embassy if not already) will be required with her application.

Now, I'm assuming that Monifé and her chap have been in a "durable relation, duly attested" (living together) for at least two years? Note that two years isn't a requirement in law, but it is in practice. If so, then this fellow is a person described in Article 3(2)(b) of Directive 2004/38/EC:

Without prejudice to any right to free movement and residence the persons concerned may have
in their own right, the host Member State shall, in accordance with its national legislation, facilitate
entry and residence for the following persons:

the partner with whom the Union citizen has a durable relationship, duly attested.

So, he then submits an application for a "Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen" (known in Ireland as "Stamp 4 EUFam"), using form EU1, making explicitly clear that he is applying as the partner with whom a UK national is in a durable relationship, duly attested, and that UK national has acquired the right of permanent residence in Ireland.

Along with the EU1 form, Monifé's chap should submit his passport, Monifé's British passport, proof of their durable relationship, proof of address and, crucially, Monifé's permanent residence certificate.

The application must be processed within six months. The Department of Justice will probably go through it with a fine tooth comb, especially due to his nationality and immigration history here. However, once the criteria for residency under EC law is met, the Department of Justice cannot refuse to issue the Residence Card.

[Monifé]

Thank you very much Ben.

Regards to the proof of relationship. We have been together a year and a half but we are only living together the last few weeks.

No bills in his name yet.

The only paper bill I get is NTL as the ESB is in the landlords name.

So if I change the name on the NTL, then what do I do? Do I need to get PRTB from the landlord? If so I think this will have to be in my name as I have not yet notified the landlord of my Fiancé living with me, as it is not permanent yet because my lease is up on this place in May and if I was to get a job, hopefully, after college, in May, we were going to find a new apartment.

The only proof of relationship we have would be photos and text messages. I could also ask meteor for both our call history as the website only lets you see call history to dec 09. One other thing I could get is to ask my friends and family to write supporting letters, what do you think of that?

any other advice on what do to for proof of relationship??

Thanks a mil

[Ben]

I think what you have suggested is good, Monifé.

You have been together for 18 months but you have been living together for only the last few weeks. However, it cannot be said that the time spent not living together was time not in a durable relationship, since this time of your relationship led to your cohabitation. This is my opinion, however. The Department of Justice may take a different view, but that would be the point I would argue if I were in your position (or the position of your fiancé, I should say).

[kabuki]

You do not have to go the EU route in order to gain permission for your partner to remain in Ireland without getting married. Irish law allows for de facto relationships, and the proof of a durable relationship of at least 2 years is required in both Irish and EU law. However, the de facto relationship will only give the applicant a stamp 4 and not a stamp 4EUFAM, but your partner would be allowed to remain in Ireland and without work restrictions.

De Facto Relationships with an Irish National

Non EEA nationals who wish to remain the State and are in a de facto relationship with an Irish National must be in a position to provide evidence of a durable attested relationship of at least 2 years. The following documents must be provided to General Immigration, INIS, 13-14 Burgh Quay, Dublin 2

* Copies of current passports of both parties.
* Evidence of finances of both parties
* Evidence of relationship of at least 2 years duration (i.e. tenancy agreement, utility bills, bank statements, etc)


Subject to the immigration status of the non EEA national permission to remain may granted. This permission will exempt the non EEA National form work permit condition.

The above is not an exhaustive list, and you may be asked for additional documentation in support of your application

The above info was found here: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP07000278

I hope this helps. This is usually much quicker than going the EU1 route as well. The time varies from application to application, but I've heard of couples receiving approval in as little as 2 weeks.

[Monifé]

* Evidence of finances of both parties

These are two things I think we may have a problem though with this application. He is currently an asylum seeker, so has not much money at all, I am a student, and have little money also. Not finished college til end of April so wont be able to get a job til then, even if I manage to get one.

Subject to the immigration status of the non EEA national permission to remain may granted. This permission will exempt the non EEA National form work permit condition.

His immigration status is that he is an asylum seeker at the moment, so I dont know how that would affect that application, but I dont think it would be positive.

Also another thing, is that we have not been living together for 2 years, and we have only been together 1 year and a half...

I thought that if the non-national has no legal status in Ireland, that applications can take up to 12 months??

Thanks for advice

[koded]

I may suggest that you give the relationship more time. Since both of you have not met most of the requirments. Try to open an account together it does not necesarily mean money will be there for now. Operate the account with the little money you have and when there is money you can deposit in the account. I think what matters is the flow of the account not the huge money deposited in it.
Atleast after you have settled down for a period of 6 months or more you will now know that you have met some requirement.
But if both of you can get married that will solve the whole problem. I dont know the posibility but that is another one time solution.
Going away from Ireland to do the marriage will be another option. It will take time though.
GoodLuck!

[Ben]

Heya

Got my Permanent Residence Certificate yesterday

Can you provide evidence of address Monifé, for you and your partner?

Can you provide evidence of a durable relationship, duly attested, which lasted for at least 2 years?

[Monifé]

Hi Ben

Yes can provide evidence of address. Letter from landlord, rent book, bank statements, still waiting for PRTB but going to send it on anyway.

Proof of relationship that we have is photos, our call history with our calls to each other highlighted, joint bank account, letter from my parents, grandparents, his sister who is a naturalised Irish citizen and a friend of his of professional standing.

Do you think the above will suffice? I might have left a bit out I am just thinking off the top of my head.

We have only been living together for the last 2 and a half months so we dont have an awful lot of documentary evidence of relationship besides the call history, photos and letters.

Thanks Ben

[Ben]

It's a good start Monifé, and I wish you the best of luck. Please do update the thread as things develop and ask any more questions you might have.

[Monifé]

Hi guys,

Went to an immigration solicitor the other day for advise on this. She said that Ireland's tranposition of the directive says we have to be living together for 2 years And she said also another thing that might be a problem is that I have never lived in Britain and the directive is based on the free movement of persons, but I actually never moved...

Very worried about this... She said we can send the application in anyway, with a few extra things to add, and that they might accept it for processing...

[walrusgumble]

You do not have to go the EU route in order to gain permission for your partner to remain in Ireland without getting married. Irish law allows for de facto relationships, and the proof of a durable relationship of at least 2 years is required in both Irish and EU law. However, the de facto relationship will only give the applicant a stamp 4 and not a stamp 4EUFAM, but your partner would be allowed to remain in Ireland and without work restrictions.

De Facto Relationships with an Irish National

Non EEA nationals who wish to remain the State and are in a de facto relationship with an Irish National must be in a position to provide evidence of a durable attested relationship of at least 2 years. The following documents must be provided to General Immigration, INIS, 13-14 Burgh Quay, Dublin 2

* Copies of current passports of both parties.
* Evidence of finances of both parties
* Evidence of relationship of at least 2 years duration (i.e. tenancy agreement, utility bills, bank statements, etc)


Subject to the immigration status of the non EEA national permission to remain may granted. This permission will exempt the non EEA National form work permit condition.

The above is not an exhaustive list, and you may be asked for additional documentation in support of your application

The above info was found here: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP07000278

I hope this helps. This is usually much quicker than going the EU1 route as well. The time varies from application to application, but I've heard of couples receiving approval in as little as 2 weeks.

If you read the inis site on de facto relationships, there are qualifying words! It will be given in certain circumstances. Considering the fact that the same site did or still does warn people that marriage to someone with a deportation order will not save them, i would not be surprised if it would also apply to de facto relationships, even though here, it involves a person still in the asylum system. Point I make here, is that due to Metock and its attitudes to any barriers to mobility and family life, EU law would be kinder here. The Irish situation enjoys discretion whereas the state cant have the same freedom with EU law.

If the op was saying, eg 2 years relationship with at least 1 year - 1 1/2 years co habiting and maybe eg a child, then my fears would not arise

either way, regardless of which route one takes, it might not be a good idea to move straight away, ye have not lived together that long. between asylum decision and subsidiary protection / leave to remain stage, ye have probably plenty of time

[walrusgumble]

Hi guys,

Went to an immigration solicitor the other day for advise on this. She said that Ireland's tranposition of the directive says we have to be living together for 2 years And she said also another thing that might be a problem is that I have never lived in Britain and the directive is based on the free movement of persons, but I actually never moved...

Very worried about this... She said we can send the application in anyway, with a few extra things to add, and that they might accept it for processing...

under british law, you might have been a british citizen since birth. how is the Irish authorities going to know when you decided to exercise your choice to avail of a birthish passport? they don't asked so they won't know. they won't be asking, i don't think on the application form, when you entered the state. although your passport will state that you were born here. What if you were born on the Shankhill Road in Belfast and is from a family who consider themselves 100% British. When they travel down here, they are Brits (errrrrrrrrrr) yet are free to take up Irish citizenship. they could go back to belfast and say, I am Irish (dodge bullet and be outcast lol) give me my eu rights , even though they were not born in the 26 counties)

(that example might not be brilliant considering the old irish attitude towards the north as an island nation)

But what about an american who finds out that he is british or other. despite have little or no connection with britian and never lived there, he could come direct to ireland and fall under eu law, despite never travelling from another eu state

considering metock wasa over ruled any notion of requirement to have even known each in another eu state, and considering historical fact and high possibility to of those in central europe having more than one eu citizenship (eg german, austrian, swiss) as intra travelling in normal, i would believe that there would be strong arguments to sort you out

the reality is, your are british too, therefore an eu citizen living in a host state, your parents after all exercised their rights years ago.

it is something to be concerned, particularily if the department noticed a common trend of claiaming other citizenship at dawn of marriage and the marriage is to an asylum seeker, accusations of trying to side wind the immigration process - that of course would be a limited situation. (no self respecting irish person down here would even entertain the idea of british citizenship - no way hosé, JOKING, HONESTLY , I AM JOKING, NOT INTENDED TO BE A SERIOUS COMMENT)

[Monifé]

If the op was saying, eg 2 years relationship with at least 1 year - 1 1/2 years co habiting and maybe eg a child, then my fears would not arise

But one could argue that time spent in a relationship, not living together, was still in a durable relationship. Just because we didnt rush into living together or having babies does not mean our relationship is not "durable".. But thanks for the info, and the info on the Brit stuff

either way, regardless of which route one takes, it might not be a good idea to move straight away, ye have not lived together that long. between asylum decision and subsidiary protection / leave to remain stage, ye have probably plenty of time

I know we could wait a while but I just want to get this sorted once and for all. I want us to be able to start our lives without this huge stress, be able to go on holidays, him be able to work, basically just be able to start our life properly..

[walrusgumble]

If the op was saying, eg 2 years relationship with at least 1 year - 1 1/2 years co habiting and maybe eg a child, then my fears would not arise

But one could argue that time spent in a relationship, not living together, was still in a durable relationship. Just because we didnt rush into living together or having babies does not mean our relationship is not "durable".. But thanks for the info, and the info on the Brit stuff

either way, regardless of which route one takes, it might not be a good idea to move straight away, ye have not lived together that long. between asylum decision and subsidiary protection / leave to remain stage, ye have probably plenty of time

I know we could wait a while but I just want to get this sorted once and for all. I want us to be able to start our lives without this huge stress, be able to go on holidays, him be able to work, basically just be able to start our life properly..

considering the position that still is held on the institution of marriage, durable relationship likely means co[habiting and nothing less. My example was that under the directive and the Commissions Communication on this matter, whilst, each state has discretion here, they should not stick to it rigidly. the example i gave might be a good example of when the minister can walk away from the 2 year rule.

In due respect, we would only know if a relationship is durable or solid with the passsage of time. An example of this is living together. who knows what would happen during this period. sure if the minister allows durable relationship without solid proof of a relationship (eg share home, mortgage, rent etc) it would be blown wide open to possible abuse

[Ben]

Hi guys,

Went to an immigration solicitor the other day for advise on this. She said that Ireland's tranposition of the directive says we have to be living together for 2 years

She hasn't read the transposition then (it mentions nothing of living together for two years, in the case of unmarried partners). This is precisely why the use of an "immigration solicitor" is totally pointless.

However, I will say something which is worrying me slightly about your case. The ECJ ruling on Metock dealt with "family members". The partner with whom a Union citizen is in a durable relationship, duly attested, is not a "family member" (according to Directive 2004/38/EC), but a "beneficiary".

The DoJ may make reference to this and use it as a reason for refusal.