Date first entered UK

so777 · Post by **so777** » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:10 pm

Hi there everyone!
I am an EU citizen, has lived here in the UK lawfully since July 2013. I have been self-employed continuously since then and have filed tax returns for 2013-14, 2014-15, 2015-16, 2016-17, 2017-18 (recent tax year that ended 5 April 2018).
My wife, non EU, and I married in September 2013. She got an EEA family permit in Nov 2013 and granted a temporary residence card in March 2014.
As far as I know, she'll be eligible for a permanent residency card from September 2013 and I'll be eligible from July 2013.

We would like to stay here, of course, and we were wondering what is the best next step.
The home office of course claims we should wait to the new 'settled status' scheme to open for applications, but I am unsure if we should actually wait, for two main reasons:

1. My wife is a non-EU, here residence card expires in mid March 2019, around 2 weeks before the UK leaves the EU. I know she can still live here lawfully, but I do not want any issues. She doesn't have a biometric card, so either way I think the settled status for her will require providing fingerprint etc so isn't it better just apply for a residence card?

2. We would like to become British citizens next year (lawfully I'm pretty sure we'll be able to do it in September 2019). Will we be able to do it with a mere settled person document or would a permanent residence card be better?

Many thanks in advance!

kam999 · Post by **kam999** » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:50 pm

Hi so777,

Have a look at the below EU Settlement Scheme:Statement of Intent link, HO released it today:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... e_2018.pdf

it seems that applying under settled status will be way easier than PRC. Your choice though.

so777 · Post by **so777** » Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:26 pm

Hi there,
Yes I saw it. Thank you.

I was wondering if this will be a problem, considering my wife's residency will expire before the day of brexit. Also, will it be easier to apply for British citizenship with permanent residency?

kam999 · Post by **kam999** » Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:48 pm

The deadline for applications to the scheme will be 30 June 2021 so there will be plenty of time for you to apply (I got this message from Home Secretary as i was registered for EU citizens status updates).

You can apply for citizenship under both scenarios i.e having PRC or settled status (as long as you meet that criteria, usually means staying 1 year after acquiring PRC or indefinite leave to remain with some other conditions). To my understanding Settled status merely means infidelity leave to remain, she can even apply pre-settled status (limited leave to remain for five years) and then acquire Settled status once she completes her 5 years here. It means once the settled status scheme opens she can apply for pre-settled status straight away and in mid March 2019 she can switch it with Settled status. Further, if you acquire B citizenship prior to your non eea family member as per EU Settlement Scheme:Statement of Intent she can still apply Settled status later, please read page 24 and Lounes judgement for more details. I am not en expert, you can double check it with a moderate or guru.

so777 · Post by **so777** » Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:52 pm

Thanks very much. Sure, will also wait for more opinions

mufc69 · Post by **mufc69** » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:57 am

kam999 wrote: ↑
Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:50 pm
Hi so777,

Have a look at the below EU Settlement Scheme:Statement of Intent link, HO released it today:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... e_2018.pdf

it seems that applying under settled status will be way easier than PRC. Your choice though.

Does this settlement scheme also protect those who are in the UK through Surinder Singh?

kam999 · Post by **kam999** » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:56 pm

mufc69 wrote: ↑
Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:57 am

kam999 wrote: ↑
Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:50 pm
Hi so777,

Have a look at the below EU Settlement Scheme:Statement of Intent link, HO released it today:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... e_2018.pdf

it seems that applying under settled status will be way easier than PRC. Your choice though.
Does this settlement scheme also protect those who are in the UK through Surinder Singh?

Well i am not an expert here, but if you read the above attachment, on page 30 it says:

6.12. In addition, in respect of the following categories involving a British citizen in
circumstances which are not protected by the Withdrawal Agreement, we have decided, as
a matter of domestic policy, that:
• A non-EU citizen family member of a British citizen who is lawfully resident in the
UK by the end of the implementation period on 31 December 2020, by virtue of
regulation 9 of the EEA Regulations (the ‘Surinder Singh’ route, which leads to a
right of permanent residence under EU law), will be eligible to apply for status under
the EU Settlement Scheme.

mufc69 · Post by **mufc69** » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:27 pm

Thank you so much for getting back to me, would just like to know must a residence card be renewed once it’s expired after the 5 years? Or can you stay beyond that or must you renew or apply for PR?

kam999 · Post by **kam999** » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:56 pm

Again I am not an expert, someone knowledgeable might take this query.

In my humble opinion it is a bit of a grey area, on Gov.uk website it says:

You can currently apply for a permanent residence document if you’ve lived in the UK for 5 years.
However, you do not need a document to confirm your residence status in the UK unless:
you want to apply for British citizenship
you want to sponsor your partner’s visa application under the Immigration Rules

Currently HO stresses that don't rush and wait for the scheme to launch. yet your employer might request for your current status update. So having a Permanent residence document is handy given it will be free of charge/hassle while switching with Settled status. There are pros n cons: If you apply for Permanent residence now it will take time and a lot of supporting document but later you will be stress free and if you wait until new scheme launches, you have to be in the queue among 3.5 million others, but once your application starts, you will get results within weeks.

so777 · Post by **so777** » Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:19 pm

Hi there,
My wife (non-eu) and I (EU) are about to submit our application for our permanent residency.
We lived here since 2013. In July 2013 I started working as self employed and in September 2013 we married.
In October 2013 my wife left to come back with a family permit and in March 2014 she got her 5 years temporary residency card.
Please help with 3 points following, I couldnt find the answers:

1. As far as I know, we are eligible to apply after 5 years from the day we married (since I was already excersing my treaty right). Correct me if I'm wrong but otherwise September 2018 is our first 5 years completed, meaning next month...(?)

2. We are gathering all the documents, and I have some trouble with the requirements. As self employed, the Home Office asks me to provide "proof of self assessment with HMRC" or P60s, which I don't have.
I called the HMRC and they said the only proof of self assessment they can provide is tax calculation statement (SA302). However, the EEA PR guidance note PDF says that such documents can be provided only if the applicant cannot provide proof of self assessment or P60s, and in which case the applicant must also provide invoices, bank statements to confirm payments and contacts of customers. I can provide it all, but that would mean about 25 documents. Can anyone please let me know what does the home office mean by proof of self assessment other than tax calculation?

3. Also, with regards to proof of residency this is what we plan to send. Let me know if you have any tips or comments:
One piece of bank statement for each year (joint account)
One piece of electricity bill for each year (joint account)?

Many thanks in advance!

so777 · Post by **so777** » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:59 pm

any ideas/tips/answers from anyone? would be highly appreciated. Thanks!

Richard W · Post by **Richard W** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:12 am

so777 wrote: ↑
Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:19 pm
In October 2013 my wife left to come back with a family permit and in March 2014 she got her 5 years temporary residency card.
Please help with 3 points following, I couldnt find the answers:

1. As far as I know, we are eligible to apply after 5 years from the day we married (since I was already excersing my treaty right). Correct me if I'm wrong but otherwise September 2018 is our first 5 years completed, meaning next month...(?)

Provided she was out of the UK for less than 6 months. The date that matters is when she returned, not when she got her RC.

so777 · Post by **so777** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:25 am

She never left for more than 6 months in any single year. In fact, I'm not sure either of us have been out of the UK for 6 months in total in the past 5 years!
So is she eligible from date of marriage? Do I need to tell them that or would they know?

Another question, on that matter-of-fact
My wife actually entered the country in May to be with me before we married, although I started my work only in July and we married in September. When she is asked about date first entered the UK, what shall we put? Is May ok assuming she entered as a tourist? Or shall we write a different date, or a date a year earlier we were here for a visit?

Thanks!

so777 · Post by **so777** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:19 pm

Richard W wrote: ↑
Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:12 am

so777 wrote: ↑
Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:19 pm
In October 2013 my wife left to come back with a family permit and in March 2014 she got her 5 years temporary residency card.
Please help with 3 points following, I couldnt find the answers:

1. As far as I know, we are eligible to apply after 5 years from the day we married (since I was already excersing my treaty right). Correct me if I'm wrong but otherwise September 2018 is our first 5 years completed, meaning next month...(?)
Provided she was out of the UK for less than 6 months. The date that matters is when she returned, not when she got her RC.

Sorry not sure I replied properly. Any thoughts, though?

Richard W · Post by **Richard W** » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:18 pm

so777 wrote: ↑
Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:25 am
She never left for more than 6 months in any single year. In fact, I'm not sure either of us have been out of the UK for 6 months in total in the past 5 years!
So is she eligible from date of marriage? Do I need to tell them that or would they know?

Yes, the 5 years start from the date of marriage. They ought to know, but mistakes are often made.

so777 wrote: ↑
Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:25 am
Another question, on that matter-of-fact
My wife actually entered the country in May to be with me before we married, although I started my work only in July and we married in September. When she is asked about date first entered the UK, what shall we put? Is May ok assuming she entered as a tourist? Or shall we write a different date, or a date a year earlier we were here for a visit?

Discoverable deception is usually unwise. I cannot see how telling them the date she *first* entered the UK can hurt, while making false statements on immigration-related matters can cause trouble later.

so777 · Post by **so777** » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:34 pm

Richard W wrote: ↑
Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:18 pm

so777 wrote: ↑
Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:25 am
She never left for more than 6 months in any single year. In fact, I'm not sure either of us have been out of the UK for 6 months in total in the past 5 years!
So is she eligible from date of marriage? Do I need to tell them that or would they know?
Yes, the 5 years start from the date of marriage. They ought to know, but mistakes are often made.

so777 wrote: ↑
Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:25 am
Another question, on that matter-of-fact
My wife actually entered the country in May to be with me before we married, although I started my work only in July and we married in September. When she is asked about date first entered the UK, what shall we put? Is May ok assuming she entered as a tourist? Or shall we write a different date, or a date a year earlier we were here for a visit?
Discoverable deception is usually unwise. I cannot see how telling them the date she *first* entered the UK can hurt, while making false statements on immigration-related matters can cause trouble later.

That makes sense. Thanks!

so777 · Post by **so777** » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:21 pm

My wife (non-eea) and I (eea) are submitting our EEA PR application soon. We are in the process of gathering all our supporting documents.

Apart from the 2 passport photos for each one of us and our marriage certificate, we are quite confused as to what to send and need your help please!

1. We have a joint bank account, is it sufficient to send one bank statement for each year (5 in total) to prove my wife's residence, my own residence and our mutual shared residence as a couple? Or do we need 3 bank statements per year? We can send electricity bills for all those years if needed, so like 2 bank statements and 1 electricity bill for each year. Does that makes our application better?

2. As for passports - we plan on using the european passport return. My wife, non-eea, as far as I understand, can also use this service, right?
The other confusion is - will they scan her EEA family permit and residence card too (part of the passport)? because the HO are asking for it.

Finally, do we really need to send her old expired passport if it didn't have any visas (she was 18 and younger).

Many thanks!

so777 · Post by **so777** » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:22 pm

I need prove my self-employment I really am not sure what to do!
It says:
We accept any one of the following, covering the relevant qualifying period:
• proof of self-assessment with HMRC
• business accounts
• P60s, including tax and National Insurance contributions for the relevant qualifying period

I might be able to send the first one, although I am not sure what it is. Otherwise they ask for one item of each three categories per year, meaning a total of 15 documents. The only "proof of self-assessment with HMRC" I think I have are either tax calculations or copies of my submitted self assessment although these seem to be part of the first category so I am assuming those aren't sufficient enough to be considered as "proof of self-assessment with HMRC". If anyone knows what that means - please say so. Otherwise I think I have to send Tax calculation (Category 1) + bank statements with received payment for work (Category 2), 2 copies of invoices (Category 3). That's at least 20 documents.

Please help! kind of lost here. Thanks!

NikiGio · Post by **NikiGio** » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:01 am

so777 wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:22 pm
I might be able to send the first one, although I am not sure what it is.

It's form SA300/SA302, one per tax year - phone HMRC/Inland Revenue direct to get them.
Make sure your evidence shows a UK address.

so777 wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:22 pm
Otherwise I think I have to send Tax calculation (Category 1) + bank statements with received payment for work (Category 2), 2 copies of invoices (Category 3). That's at least 20 documents.

Yes, I would send all these - despite the HO saying you need 'any' of these. Self-employed applications are normally quite bulky.

As example - somebody I know applied as sole-trader (not Ltd) - she requested HMRC to send her an SA302 per tax year of the qualifying period. She also included their very latest tax return. Finally, she asked for HMRC to confirm in writing the original date she had registered as self-employed.

Post by **CR001** » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:11 am

All topics merged (click to read)

so777 · Post by **so777** » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:31 am

NikiGio wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:01 am

so777 wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:22 pm
I might be able to send the first one, although I am not sure what it is.
It's form SA300/SA302, one per tax year - phone HMRC/Inland Revenue direct to get them.
Make sure your evidence shows a UK address.

so777 wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:22 pm
Otherwise I think I have to send Tax calculation (Category 1) + bank statements with received payment for work (Category 2), 2 copies of invoices (Category 3). That's at least 20 documents.
Yes, I would send all these - despite the HO saying you need 'any' of these. Self-employed applications are normally quite bulky.

As example - somebody I know applied as sole-trader (not Ltd) - she requested HMRC to send her an SA302 per tax year of the qualifying period. She also included their very latest tax return. Finally, she asked for HMRC to confirm in writing the original date she had registered as self-employed.

I see what you are saying. But what is the proof of self-assessment with HMRC? It can't be the SA300/SA302 because it clearly says that if you CAN'T provide proof of self-assessment then you have to provide one proof for EACH one of the three categories (meaning at least 15 documents), not from any as you suggested.
The SA300/SA302 in that case appears indeed as part of Category A, therefore, logically, it can't be the proof of self-assessment (although this is the only thing HMRC can provide, by the way!).

NikiGio · Post by **NikiGio** » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:22 pm

so777 wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:31 am
I see what you are saying. But what is the proof of self-assessment with HMRC? It can't be the SA300/SA302 because it clearly says that if you CAN'T provide proof of self-assessment then you have to provide one proof for EACH one of the three categories (meaning at least 15 documents), not from any as you suggested.
The SA300/SA302 in that case appears indeed as part of Category A, therefore, logically, it can't be the proof of self-assessment (although this is the only thing HMRC can provide, by the way!).

Ok, I get what you mean after re-reading the Guidance Notes. They're confusing I think - effectively, the Guidance Notes say that in case you don't have 'proof of self-assessment with HMRC' or business accounts or P60s, you can provide one piece of evidence from Categories 1-6, and Category 1 includes SA300 and SA302, meaning therefore that these two forms would be an alternative/different from the 'proof of self-assessment with HMRC' they have in mind.

so777 wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:22 pm
The only "proof of self-assessment with HMRC" I think I have are either tax calculations or copies of my submitted self assessment although these seem to be part of the first category so I am assuming those aren't sufficient enough to be considered as "proof of self-assessment with HMRC"

Tax calculations or copies of my submitted self assessment *are* enough as proof of self-assessment with HMRC.

so777 wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:22 pm
Otherwise I think I have to send Tax calculation (Category 1) + bank statements with received payment for work (Category 2), 2 copies of invoices (Category 3). That's at least 20 documents.

I think you should send the Tax Calculations/SA302 (Category 1), copies of your submitted self-assessments if you have them, bank statements with payment for work - I would provide 3 bank statements for each year (Category 2), copies of invoices for services provided for the five years - say three invoices for each year if you have them (Category 3). Then, depending on the type of business you have (partnership, Ltd or franchise), I would provide one piece of evidence from Categories 4-6. If you're a sole trader, look at the evidence I mentioned in an earlier response.

Good luck.

so777 · Post by **so777** » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:26 pm

NikiGio wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:22 pm

so777 wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:31 am
I see what you are saying. But what is the proof of self-assessment with HMRC? It can't be the SA300/SA302 because it clearly says that if you CAN'T provide proof of self-assessment then you have to provide one proof for EACH one of the three categories (meaning at least 15 documents), not from any as you suggested.
The SA300/SA302 in that case appears indeed as part of Category A, therefore, logically, it can't be the proof of self-assessment (although this is the only thing HMRC can provide, by the way!).
Ok, I get what you mean after re-reading the Guidance Notes. They're confusing I think - effectively, the Guidance Notes say that in case you don't have 'proof of self-assessment with HMRC' or business accounts or P60s, you can provide one piece of evidence from Categories 1-6, and Category 1 includes SA300 and SA302, meaning therefore that these two forms would be an alternative/different from the 'proof of self-assessment with HMRC' they have in mind.

so777 wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:22 pm
The only "proof of self-assessment with HMRC" I think I have are either tax calculations or copies of my submitted self assessment although these seem to be part of the first category so I am assuming those aren't sufficient enough to be considered as "proof of self-assessment with HMRC"
Tax calculations or copies of my submitted self assessment *are* enough as proof of self-assessment with HMRC.

so777 wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:22 pm
Otherwise I think I have to send Tax calculation (Category 1) + bank statements with received payment for work (Category 2), 2 copies of invoices (Category 3). That's at least 20 documents.

I think you should send the Tax Calculations/SA302 (Category 1), copies of your submitted self-assessments if you have them, bank statements with payment for work - I would provide 3 bank statements for each year (Category 2), copies of invoices for services provided for the five years - say three invoices for each year if you have them (Category 3). Then, depending on the type of business you have (partnership, Ltd or franchise), I would provide one piece of evidence from Categories 4-6. If you're a sole trader, look at the evidence I mentioned in an earlier response.

Good luck.

Thank you. I called them and I wouldn't advise. I believe it's on purpose.

In order to prove my self employment I will send (for each year, so times 5):
1. copy of self-assessment
2. Bank statements showing money paid in
3. 2 invoices (per year, so 10 in total)
4. Tax calculations

I hope that is sufficient.

so777 · Post by **so777** » Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:44 pm

does anyone know what we should write for my wife's (non-eu) application?
She entered in November 2013 following receiving her EEA family permit in October 2013, however, she has entered before hand in May 2013 to visit and we got married in September 2013, she then left to get her EEA family permit. We were also travelling in the UK in 2010 and 2012, before moving here. Not sure.

What's the right date to write down?

Post by **CR001** » Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:19 pm

CR001 wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:11 am
All topics merged (click to read)

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