Irish Citizenship by Descent

I have a question about whether or not I am eligible for citizenship under these guidelines. I've done some research, including The Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act of 1956 (amended in 1986, 2001, 2004, etc.) but I'm having trouble wading through all the changes. If anyone here is knowledgeable enough on the subject to help, I would greatly appreciate it.

See this page for more: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categ ... anguage=en

My grandfather was born in Northern Ireland in 1924. At 17 he moved to England where he was married and my mother was born. I was born to an American Father and English mother.

Had my grandfather been born in the Republic of Ireland, there would be no question, but since he was born in Northern Ireland (although it is still the island of Ireland) after 1922, I'm not sure. The language of the law seems to have changed, getting rid of the language referring to 1922, but has been replaced by other language that I don't fully understand enough to determine my eligibility, i.e., did my grandfather have to somehow claim his Irish Citizenship or was being born there enough?

poundcake wrote:I have a question about whether or not I am eligible for citizenship under these guidelines. I've done some research, including The Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act of 1956 (amended in 1986, 2001, 2004, etc.) but I'm having trouble wading through all the changes. If anyone here is knowledgeable enough on the subject to help, I would greatly appreciate it.

See this page for more: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categ ... anguage=en

My grandfather was born in Northern Ireland in 1924. At 17 he moved to England where he was married and my mother was born. I was born to an American Father and English mother.

Had my grandfather been born in the Republic of Ireland, there would be no question, but since he was born in Northern Ireland (although it is still the island of Ireland) after 1922, I'm not sure. The language of the law seems to have changed, getting rid of the language referring to 1922, but has been replaced by other language that I don't fully understand enough to determine my eligibility, i.e., did my grandfather have to somehow claim his Irish Citizenship or was being born there enough?

hey man. as far as i am aware its 32 counties (North/South) which is classified as Ireland in Irish govt eyes pre and post 1950... i don't know wether this will help or not but worth checking out...theres an email address there where you can ask for more specific info according to your case...

Section C: Documents relating to the grandparent born in Ireland
8. Original, long form, civil Irish birth certificate showing full details of parents. If the grandparent was born before
1864, Baptism certificates are only considered with a search certificate from the General Registrar’s Office of Ireland
(ph.00 353 1 635 4000 or visit www.groireland.ie) stating that birth was not registered along with further evidence of
birth in Ireland.
9. Original, civil marriage registration certificate, if married, showing the age of each party at the date of marriage and
the names of at least one of the parents of each party. If previously married, the original divorce and marriage
certificates must be provided.
10. A photocopy of a formal, government issued ID e.g. passport, driver’s licence. OR if the grandparent is deceased, an
original of the civil death certificate must be provided

source:

http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=80823

http://www.dfa.ie/uploads/documents/emb ... letter.pdf

Thanks for those links, they do provide the information in a different way than the Irish Embassy in the US (http://www.embassyofireland.org/home/in ... x?id=30818). It just seems that every official site where I am able to find information about it, it is explained slightly differently so it all gets a bit convoluted.

Thanks for looking that up for me on the London site though, I hadn't considered that the different Irish Embassy websites would have different info.

poundcake, you are eligible for Irish Citizenship through Foreign Births Registration. It doesn't matter if your grandfather was born in Northern Ireland. The fact that he was born on the island of Ireland entitles you to Foreign Births Registration.

I think it stems from the fact that the 1956 Act repealled all existing citizenship legislation, and stated that anyone born on the island of Ireland was an Irish citizen, in line with Article 2 of the Constitution.

However, I am no legal expert, and I can't remember where I read that a grandparent's birth in Northern Ireland is sufficient.

Thanks for that info, I believe you are correct so I've been gathering up all the necessary documents to submit for my Foreign Birth Registration, and I've come across a few snags (who doesn't).

Snag 1: My grandfather is Bryan on his wedding and death certificate, but is Bernard on his birth certificate. His wedding and death certificates both clearly state N. Ireland as his place of birth, although one says 1924 and the other says 1925. But, there are NO regristrations for a Bryan ***** in all of N. Ireland in 1923-1926. He was eventually found as "Bernard" in 1924 due to my grandmother remembering that she wondered if they were legally married since the wedding certificate said Bryan when he was actually Bernard. The father, my great-grandfather Bernard, matches on his wedding and birth certificate (incidentally, I think it is because he was named after his father that he was known as Bryan, although this is not officially his first or middle name).

Snag 2: I was born in Germany to an American Serviceman serving on Active Duty and a British mother (although under Irish law, even though she was born in England, she is born to an Irish father and therefore she is Irish -- see snag 1 above). As of the moment I was born I was a US Citizen, but as I was not born within a US State, my birth certificate was issued by the US Government and not a State Government. The US Gov't does not list the place of birth of the parents of children, only the names and dates. In the instructions to apply for FBR, it states that official certificates should be sent and such certificates should include the name and place of birth of the parents. But mine never will because the US Gov't doesn't provide that info on birth certificates. I have a few "unofficial" documents that show it so I'm wondering if I should enclose those as well....

Snag 3: I currently live in Florida, but I suspect my address might be unstable for the next 8-18 months and might change between the states of Florida and Georgia. The FBR registration process, from what I have heard, can take between 6-18 months or more, depending on the individual circumstance and any additional documentation that might be required. Both Florida and Georgia are required to apply for FBR through the New York Embassy. My brother has a stable address in Georgia that will not change in this time period. Should I put down that address as mine as that is the only stable address that I can count on, even though I don't actually live there now (although I did at one time) or should I trust that each (of the many, I'm sure) time I submit and address change to the Irish Embassy in NY that it will be processed correctly and on time, especially considering that I am sending them original documents that I really do not want to be lost in the US Postal Service?

poundcake, you do know that you also have entitlement to be a British citizen, and have had all your life, don't you?

As it was my mother, not my father, that is British, I would actually have to go through a similar process to this in order to become British. I am able to "apply" for British citizenship using form UKM, but I also run into snags in that process.

poundcake wrote:As it was my mother, not my father, that is British, I would actually have to go through a similar process to this in order to become British. I am able to "apply" for British citizenship using form UKM, but I also run into snags in that process.

But to register as a British citizen, assuming you were born before 1983, you just need to submit with form UKM:

• your passport; and
• your full birth certificate; and
• your mother's full birth certificate; and either
• her certificate of naturalisation or registration as a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (or, before 1 January 1949, as a British subject); or
• papers showing her legal adoption; or
• her expired citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies passport.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... documents/

It's got to be easier to fulfill the above, than that required to be entered on the Irish FBR, no?

Ben wrote:But to register as a British citizen, assuming you were born before 1983, you just need to submit with form UKM:
your passport; and
your full birth certificate; and
your mother's full birth certificate; and either
her certificate of naturalisation or registration as a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (or, before 1 January 1949, as a British subject); or
papers showing her legal adoption; or
her expired citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies passport.
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... documents/
It's got to be easier to fulfill the above, than that required to be entered on the Irish FBR, no?

If my father were British, I could just "claim" British citizenship, but since it was my mother, and I have to "apply", the problem comes in on the form UKM with the "Good Character" requirement (something that would not apply if it were my father that was British). I a not ashamed to say that about 8, almost 9 years ago a had a run in, and in the US, that run in had a sentence of no more than a year (the actual sentence was 11 months, 29 days -- 1 day less than a year - even though I only ended up serving about 8 1/2 months). I have been waiting patiently for 10 years to come up so that it would be spent under UK law. Now, with the passage of the LASPO bill, it already is spent, except under ammendment 185G of that bill, no conviction of any sort will ever become spent for purposes of immigragration or naturalization.

THERE is my snag.... I'm sure you didn't mean to drag that out, but there it is, it was an accidental thing a long time ago, and I am left paying the price, in many ways, including my ability to apply for UK citizenship by form UKM. (By the way, I have never had anything before or since, it was just the one-off that I happened to be made the example of...)

Does anyone please have any usefull suggestions on the 3 questions I recently posted?

poundcake wrote:If my father were British, I could just "claim" British citizenship, but since it was my mother, and I have to "apply", the problem comes in on the form UKM with the "Good Character" requirement (something that would not apply if it were my father that was British). I a not ashamed to say that about 8, almost 9 years ago a had a run in, and in the US, that run in had a sentence of no more than a year (the actual sentence was 11 months, 29 days -- 1 day less than a year - even though I only ended up serving about 8 1/2 months). I have been waiting patiently for 10 years to come up so that it would be spent under UK law. Now, with the passage of the LASPO bill, it already is spent, except under ammendment 185G of that bill, no conviction of any sort will ever become spent for purposes of immigragration or naturalization.

If British fathers and British mothers were treated equally, this wouldn't be an issue, but since the British government, for decades, has taken an attitude of appeasement towards British mothers instead of equality, it does become an issue, as my case is an example. If my father were British, no problem, but since it is my mother, there is a problem.... One that would not affect me in the slightest if the laws of the UK weren't still bent in favor of the father....

</end rant>

'My grandfather was born in Northern Ireland in 1924. At 17 he moved to England where he was married and my mother was born. I was born to an American Father and English mother.'


If your mother or grandfather is still alive, the easiest route is for them to apply for an Irish (and/or British) passport. If they get the passport this solves your problem. This is a low cost solution.

If both are dead, and have left a living spouse, their spouse could also apply for a passport.

Brigid from Ireland wrote:If both are dead, and have left a living spouse, their spouse could also apply for a passport.

I'm afraid post-nuptial citizenship no longer exists in either British or Irish nationality laws.

Ben wrote:

Brigid from Ireland wrote:If both are dead, and have left a living spouse, their spouse could also apply for a passport.

I'm afraid post-nuptial citizenship no longer exists in either British or Irish nationality laws.

Yes, but spouse may have acquired post-nuptial citizenship before this became impossible. I agree it is not likely, but it may have been done, and if so, they might as well take advantage of it.

Brigid from Ireland wrote: If your mother or grandfather is still alive, the easiest route is for them to apply for an Irish (and/or British) passport. If they get the passport this solves your problem. This is a low cost solution.

Thanks for the reply, but I'm not sure I follow how that solves my problem. My mother maintains her British citizenship and passport, but in order for me to become British (by descent - as the child of a British mother) I have to apply for registration using form UKM.

She is Irish by default, since her father was born on the Island of Ireland but her birth was not registered there. Before she could get a passport, she would need to apply for FBR by providing many of the same documents that I would need to provide. Once her birth is registered, I would still need to register mine using the process that I am working on now.

Am I overlooking something?

Yes. It is MUCH easier for your mother to get an Irish passport, than it is for you to get an Irish passport.

In general, all your mother will need to do is fill in the application form, enclose an original of her birth cert, her father's birth cert and her parents marriage cert. That is it - she is automatically an Irish citizen, regardless of where she was born, because her father was an Irish citizen born in Ireland.

She should not draw attention to the difference in first names (her father's) because if she does not mention it there is a strong possibility that the staff in the passport office, familiar with the Irish system of naming a child Mary Ann after the grandmother, and calling her Angela after a saint (no relationship at all between the formal name and what the child is generally known by) will ignore the difference in names. If they do notice, let them write out to ask her, and she can then explain it. It should be no problem, especially if there is any relative in Ireland who can write a letter to confirm it (X was my mother's brother, he was christened Y but always called X, his wife is Z and their daughter is K, married to M an American soldier).

Once your mom has an Irish passport, you are sorted out. You just need to follow the various steps for the child of an Irish citizen. You use her Irish passport to join the foreign birth's register.

Passport office staff (staff in general) do not like complicated cases. Your mother's case is easy - straightforward. Your case, if your mother does not have an Irish passport, is a pain, requires a manager to look at it, and will be scrutinised carefully (particularly as you are probably a guy planning to come to Ireland to look for a job at a time when jobs are scarce). Your mom is probably near to retirement age, and wil be deemed to be looking for a passport for sentimental reasons, an American who might come here on holiday and spend money. My guess is that she will get the Irish passport with no diffficulty. Try it and let me know if it works.


Re: your mom

'Under the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Acts, 1956 to 2004, a person who was born outside Ireland is automatically an Irish citizen by descent if one of that person's parents was an Irish citizen who was born in Ireland.'

Re: You

'A person born abroad to a parent who, although not born in Ireland, was otherwise an Irish citizen at the time of the person’s birth, can become an Irish citizen by applying for Foreign Births Registration. The online application is known as 'Náisiún'. '

You should be able to apply for citizenship via FBR, regardless of whether your mother has an Irish Passport or not.

My dad's mother was born in Ireland and my dad & I were born in the UK. I gained citizenship via FBR, despite my dad never possessing an Irish (or British!) passport

Your mother is automatically an Irish citizen- she just needs her & her father's birth certificate etc

poundcake wrote:My grandfather was born in Northern Ireland in 1924. At 17 he moved to England where he was married and my mother was born. I was born to an American Father and English mother.

Poundcake, do you have a family (e.g. wife and kids) who will be travelling with you to Europe? Where do you plan to live?

I ask because if you have the option of British and Irish, where you want to live may decide which you should apply for, but in the opposite kind of way. So if you want to live in the UK, it is better to get an Irish passport. And better to have a British passport if you want to live in Ireland.

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote: Poundcake, do you have a family (e.g. wife and kids) who will be travelling with you to Europe? Where do you plan to live?

I ask because if you have the option of British and Irish, where you want to live may decide which you should apply for, but in the opposite kind of way. So if you want to live in the UK, it is better to get an Irish passport. And better to have a British passport if you want to live in Ireland.

I am intrigued by your comments and I hope you elaborate after my reply. To answer your questions:
1.) I would be travelling alone.
2.) I would like to live in England, and due to issues with registering for UK Citizenship through form UKM (see posts above), I am trying to get FBR in Ireland through my grandfather. I have also considered living in Ireland, though most likely it would be in England as I have closer family ties there (uncles, cousins, etc.) than I do in Ireland (2nd cousins and cousins twice removed).

BTW, thank you to everyone else who has responded to my posts, you have all helped in some way.

Brigid from Ireland wrote:Once your mom has an Irish passport, you are sorted out. You just need to follow the various steps for the child of an Irish citizen. You use her Irish passport to join the foreign birth's register.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but since she was not born on the Island of Ireland (she was born in England), since her father was born in Ireland, she is Irish by Descent, which does not automatically pass to children. She was never registered in the FBR (though I'm not sure she has to be), but even if she had an Irish passport, I would still be claiming citizenship through my grandfather as he was the one born in Ireland.

It is different, but similar in a strange way to how my children can claim Irish Citizenship only if I am registered in the FBR before they are born. My understanding is that my parents could have registered me in FBR at any time before I was 18 by using the same documents I would have to submit now. The way I understand it is that my mother having, or not having an Irish passport doesn't in any way affect the documentation I have to provide. I will however concede that it would make a strong argument if they accepted the provided documentation to give her a passport but then advised me that it was insufficient for FBR registration.

Thoughts?

poundcake wrote:

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote: Poundcake, do you have a family (e.g. wife and kids) who will be travelling with you to Europe? Where do you plan to live?

I ask because if you have the option of British and Irish, where you want to live may decide which you should apply for, but in the opposite kind of way. So if you want to live in the UK, it is better to get an Irish passport. And better to have a British passport if you want to live in Ireland.

I am intrigued by your comments and I hope you elaborate after my reply. To answer your questions:
1.) I would be travelling alone.
2.) I would like to live in England, and due to issues with registering for UK Citizenship through form UKM (see posts above), I am trying to get FBR in Ireland through my grandfather. I have also considered living in Ireland, though most likely it would be in England as I have closer family ties there (uncles, cousins, etc.) than I do in Ireland (2nd cousins and cousins twice removed).

If you are travelling alone, then free movement of your family members is not an issue.

Note that with citizenship of an EU member state, you can easily move to any other member state to work (or even not to work). So Irish or British is fine. Makes little difference from a mobility perspective.

poundcake wrote:

Brigid from Ireland wrote:Once your mom has an Irish passport, you are sorted out. You just need to follow the various steps for the child of an Irish citizen. You use her Irish passport to join the foreign birth's register.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but since she was not born on the Island of Ireland (she was born in England), since her father was born in Ireland, she is Irish by Descent, which does not automatically pass to children. She was never registered in the FBR (though I'm not sure she has to be), but even if she had an Irish passport, I would still be claiming citizenship through my grandfather as he was the one born in Ireland.

It is different, but similar in a strange way to how my children can claim Irish Citizenship only if I am registered in the FBR before they are born. My understanding is that my parents could have registered me in FBR at any time before I was 18 by using the same documents I would have to submit now. The way I understand it is that my mother having, or not having an Irish passport doesn't in any way affect the documentation I have to provide. I will however concede that it would make a strong argument if they accepted the provided documentation to give her a passport but then advised me that it was insufficient for FBR registration.

Thoughts?

You are absolutely correct in all the points you make here.

Poundcake wrote:I currently live in Florida, but I suspect my address might be unstable for the next 8-18 months and might change between the states of Florida and Georgia. The FBR registration process, from what I have heard, can take between 6-18 months or more, depending on the individual circumstance and any additional documentation that might be required. Both Florida and Georgia are required to apply for FBR through the New York Embassy. My brother has a stable address in Georgia that will not change in this time period. Should I put down that address as mine as that is the only stable address that I can count on, even though I don't actually live there now (although I did at one time) or should I trust that each (of the many, I'm sure) time I submit and address change to the Irish Embassy in NY that it will be processed correctly and on time, especially considering that I am sending them original documents that I really do not want to be lost in the US Postal Service?

I'm still a little up in the air on this one, anyone have any suggestions?