Irish citizenship by descent - no passport for grandparent!

Hello all,

I've read through a lot of the threads on the forum and haven't been able to find a topic that answers my query, so I feel compelled to post and I really hope someone can help.

I've already contacted my local embassy about this but keep getting referred to www.dfa.ie - I haven't been able to get through to the consular section in Dublin.

The situation:
- My Irish grandmother was born in Ireland.
- My mother was born in the UK to my Irish grandmother, therefore she has Irish citizenship from birth even though she was born in the UK.
- I was born in the UK and wish to apply for Irish citizenship by descent from my mother and grandmother.

The problem:
Although I can provide all other necessary documentation for the application (as listen on www.dfa.ie), I don't have an identity document for my grandmother - she has never had a driving licence, nor does she have a passport! She is also quite old now and applying for a passport isn't practical now because of her health - she wouldn't be able to fill out the forms etc.

The question:
Does anyone know if it is possible to apply for citizenship by descent but without providing a certified identity document for the (still living) grandparent? As I said, birth certificate etc. is no problem. The best I can manage for "ID" is a UK national insurance card (which has no photo) - she has no photographic ID at all.

Sorry for the lengthy description - I hope someone can help.

Thanks!

el_gringo

el_gringo wrote:Hello all,

I've read through a lot of the threads on the forum and haven't been able to find a topic that answers my query, so I feel compelled to post and I really hope someone can help.

I've already contacted my local embassy about this but keep getting referred to www.dfa.ie - I haven't been able to get through to the consular section in Dublin.

The situation:
- My Irish grandmother was born in Ireland.
- My mother was born in the UK to my Irish grandmother, therefore she has Irish citizenship from birth even though she was born in the UK.
- I was born in the UK and wish to apply for Irish citizenship by descent from my mother and grandmother.

The problem:
Although I can provide all other necessary documentation for the application (as listen on www.dfa.ie), I don't have an identity document for my grandmother - she has never had a driving licence, nor does she have a passport! She is also quite old now and applying for a passport isn't practical now because of her health - she wouldn't be able to fill out the forms etc.

The question:
Does anyone know if it is possible to apply for citizenship by descent but without providing a certified identity document for the (still living) grandparent? As I said, birth certificate etc. is no problem. The best I can manage for "ID" is a UK national insurance card (which has no photo) - she has no photographic ID at all.

Sorry for the lengthy description - I hope someone can help.

Thanks!

el_gringo

I believe the following link will be useful to you

http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=267

Because your mother is an Irish citizen, claim it through her. Obtaining a birth certificate for your grandmother would probably not be that difficult.

Hello joesoap101,

joesoap101 wrote:
Because your mother is an Irish citizen, claim it through her. Obtaining a birth certificate for your grandmother would probably not be that difficult.

Thanks for the prompt reply. I've looked at that page many times. So your interpretation is that it's sufficient to prove that my mother was an Irish citizen when I was born, using her birth certificate, her marriage certificate (to show her surname changed) and my grandmother's birth certificate?

My mother doesn't have an Irish passport but I know that if she were to apply for one, it's sufficient for her to simply provide those three documents I just mentioned.

My understanding was that, since my mother wasn't born in Ireland, I have to include my grandmother in the foreign birth registration application - what do you think?

Thanks again!

el_gringo

el_gringo wrote:Hello joesoap101,

joesoap101 wrote:
Because your mother is an Irish citizen, claim it through her. Obtaining a birth certificate for your grandmother would probably not be that difficult.

Thanks for the prompt reply. I've looked at that page many times. So your interpretation is that it's sufficient to prove that my mother was an Irish citizen when I was born, using her birth certificate, her marriage certificate (to show her surname changed) and my grandmother's birth certificate?

My mother doesn't have an Irish passport but I know that if she were to apply for one, it's sufficient for her to simply provide those three documents I just mentioned.

My understanding was that, since my mother wasn't born in Ireland, I have to include my grandmother in the foreign birth registration application - what do you think?

Thanks again!

el_gringo

Well it appears that you do not need to submit a birth certificate for your grandmother, but if you could it wouldnt hurt. However, your mothers birth certificate must have her parents names on it, thats why they ask for full civil birth certificates. The Irish embassy in London should be helpful, did you contact them or one of the Irish consulates?

joesoap101 wrote: Well it appears that you do not need to submit a birth certificate for your grandmother, but if you could it wouldnt hurt. However, your mothers birth certificate must have her parents names on it, thats why they ask for full civil birth certificates. The Irish embassy in London should be helpful, did you contact them or one of the Irish consulates?

joesoap101, thanks for your reply. just to be clear, my mother was born in the UK and doesn't have an Irish passport, although since her mother was born in Ireland, she is supposedly a citizen and can apply for a passport etc.

But sending only my mother's birth certificate in my FBR application isn't enough because I have to demonstrate that she is Irish from birth, i.e. through my grandmother. So if I want citizenship, I think I have to prove the link back to my grandmother by sending all the docs listed on

http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=267

and the problem there is that my grandmother has no identity documents I can copy for the FBR application. So I'm wondering if anyone else has applied for FBR and succeeded without having to send every single document listed there.

I am going to try contacting the embassy and DFA in Dublin tomorrow again and I'll post here to let people know how it goes.

this thread has had over 60 views so far and no-one else has responded - has anyone else had direct experience with a situation like this?

cheers,
el_gringo

el_gringo wrote: and the problem there is that my grandmother has no identity documents I can copy for the FBR application. So I'm wondering if anyone else has applied for FBR and succeeded without having to send every single document listed there.

I am going to try contacting the embassy and DFA in Dublin tomorrow again and I'll post here to let people know how it goes.

this thread has had over 60 views so far and no-one else has responded - has anyone else had direct experience with a situation like this?

Probably not!

Bear in mind that registration as an Irish citizen under Foreign Birth Registration is a legal entitlement as long as certain facts are established. If you are refused for an arbitrary reason - and by that I mean a formal refusal in writing, not just a phone chat - then you probably could (and should!) go to court.

Find a good Irish immigration lawyer if you keep having problems. Also bear in mind that this facility could be closed to new applicants some day, next time the law changes.

JAJ wrote:

el_gringo wrote: ...
has anyone else had direct experience with a situation like this?

Probably not!

Bear in mind that registration as an Irish citizen under Foreign Birth Registration is a legal entitlement as long as certain facts are established. If you are refused for an arbitrary reason - and by that I mean a formal refusal in writing, not just a phone chat - then you probably could (and should!) go to court.

Find a good Irish immigration lawyer if you keep having problems. Also bear in mind that this facility could be closed to new applicants some day, next time the law changes.

Hello JAJ - thanks for the tips - actually I had never thought of it before in terms of it being my legal entitlement but you're absolutely right!

That's also a good point you made about the law changing, and that's is one thing that slightly worries me because the rules seem to be getting stricter when it comes to citizenship with each revision of the law. Also I would like my future children to at least have the option of citizenship if they want it.

I noticed during my initial search of the forum another person who had a similar problem:

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=8790

Unfortunately he never replied to let us know how he got on.

I'll post an update when I get through to the DFA in case anyone else finds themself in this situation in future.

Cheers.

hello all,

well, i promised an update and here goes - maybe someone else who finds themself in a similar situation in future will read this or find it via a search engine and get a quick answer to their query.

the lack of "identity document" proved to be no problem - I was able to provide pension documents instead of a passport or driver's licence for my grandmother and that was fine.

so now i am an irish citizen - i think it took them under a month to process my application! incredible.

i only have one further question which is - is it certain that i don't lose my status as "british citizen" upon acquiring irish citizenship through foreign births registration based on a grandparent born in ireland? as you guys probably know there is alot of confused information online, but the senior members here seem to know their stuff...

on that subject, i was reading through alot of the threads on the forum and i am taken aback at the difficulties that people have when it comes to immigration, either for themselves personally or for family members, and i understand that my original query was a relatively minor issue compared to the problems some people have - hats off to the moderators and senior members for their support.

el_gringo

el_gringo wrote: so now i am an irish citizen - i think it took them under a month to process my application! incredible.

i only have one further question which is - is it certain that i don't lose my status as "british citizen" upon acquiring irish citizenship through foreign births registration based on a grandparent born in ireland?

You don't lose British citizenship (but you really should have checked this earlier ... )

Be aware that if you have any children in future, the children can also be registered as Irish citizens under the same process, provided the law doesn't change.

hi JAJ,

thanks for the info

yeah the funny thing is that i was absolutely sure that it isn't a problem to have both citizenships before i went ahead with the FBR.

then someone i know made a comment the other day that i must have lost british citizenship automatically because i wasn't born in northern ireland...that got me worrying a bit turns out he was talking rubbish

i just phoned up the home office and was told that they don't have a problem with dual nationality for british citizens provided ireland doesn't expect me to renounce my british citizenship - which it doesn't. i was sure about all that before anyway before doing it, now i'm doubly sure - panic over, now i can relax

also you don't have to notify the british authorities or do anything official as far as britain is concerned if you become a citizen of ireland.

cheers
el_gringo