IRP Renewal advice needed

QuestionAboutIE94 · Post by **QuestionAboutIE94** » Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:45 pm

Before I ask the questions below are some important inputs:
- I received my IRP last year (June 2019) based on Special Skills Work Permit, which will expire in 2 years
- I will start MBA in Spain this year (in September)

The questions is:
- If I decide to open a business now, can I renew my IRP based on that In June 2021?
- If the answer to q.1 is yes, what are the requirements for that?
- If the answer to q.2 is no, is there another workaround for me to keep the permission to work in Ireland after I finish school or in-between my duration of studies (for an internship for example)?

Thank you for any help or advice in advance!

Granista · Post by **Granista** » Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:44 pm

You have an IRP based on Special Skills work permit. Once you leave your job and move to Spain, you are no longer entitled to the IRP. It is invalid. You cannot get one based on an Irish business if you will be a student in Spain.
There is no basis for you to keep your IRP when you are not resident in or working in the State. You will need to reapply if and when you want to return to Ireland, and see if you qualify then.

Post by **littlerr** » Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:21 pm

If you mean Critical Skills permit, the answers are no and no. Your work permit clearly says you must work for that employer full time for 2 years before you are allowed to change your stamp to stamp 4 and open your business.

QuestionAboutIE94 · Post by **QuestionAboutIE94** » Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:50 pm

The thing is I do have stamp 4, so technically I guess I can open business

QuestionAboutIE94 · Post by **QuestionAboutIE94** » Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:59 pm

littlerr wrote: ↑
Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:21 pm
If you mean Critical Skills permit, the answers are no and no. Your work permit clearly says you must work for that employer full time for 2 years before you are allowed to change your stamp to stamp 4 and open your business.

The thing is I do have stamp 4, so technically I guess I can open business

Post by **littlerr** » Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:28 am

Then you are not on work permit. You cannot have work permit and stamp 4 at the same time.

You can start a business whilst on stamp 4, but you must be ordinarily resident in Ireland.

QuestionAboutIE94 · Post by **QuestionAboutIE94** » Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:45 am

littlerr wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:28 am
Then you are not on work permit. You cannot have work permit and stamp 4 at the same time.

You can start a business whilst on stamp 4, but you must be ordinarily resident in Ireland.

Ah, ok, sorry to be confusing. Indeed, I do have Stamp 4. According to Revenue.ie:
"If you leave Ireland after this time, you continue to be ordinarily resident for three consecutive tax years. For these three years you must pay Irish tax on your worldwide income except for"

Does it mean I can open my business in Ireland while living in another country and just do taxes for the business operating in Ireland? And later I can renew my Stamp 4 based on having that business?

Granista · Post by **Granista** » Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:00 pm

No. The "ordinarily resident for three tax years" is regards to REVENUE, not immigration. Once you leave the state, you are not resident, ordinarily or otherwise, and you lose your IRP.

avta · Post by **avta** » Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:48 am

Granista wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:00 pm
Once you leave the state, you are not resident, ordinarily or otherwise, and you lose your IRP.

Hi,
There are a lot of people leaving state with IRP and returning back. I know people who absent more than half year. They are not loosing they IRP just because of absence, even more they must have (not expired) IRP to re-enter to state. It means that topic starter can be absent for some time and can come back, there no such limit as absence TIME except IRP exp.date. He just must maintain the home address in the state to return before IRP will expire. He also must have any local tax income and other conditions in time when renew the IRP.

Post by **littlerr** » Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:56 am

avta wrote: ↑
Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:48 am

Granista wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:00 pm
Once you leave the state, you are not resident, ordinarily or otherwise, and you lose your IRP.
Hi,
There are a lot of people leaving state with IRP and returning back. I know people who absent more than half year. They are not loosing they IRP just because of absence, even more they must have (not expired) IRP to re-enter to state. It means that topic starter can be absent for some time and can come back, there no such limit as absence TIME except IRP exp.date. He just must maintain the home address in the state to return before IRP will expire. He also must have any local tax income and other conditions in time when renew the IRP.

This is misleading. Every permission comes with a requirement of how many days one needs to live in the state. The inherent minimal is 6 months although in reality the IO will use a more practical and realistic methods to find out whether you are abusing the system.

For example, a Stamp 4 from the IIP scheme requires the person to be in the state of Ireland for at least 1 day every year for the first 3 years and after that they can get a de-facto permanent residences without coming into Ireland ever (except for renewing their IRP of course).

Similarly if you are on stamp 2/1A, you will likely be required to show proof from the institution that you are physically in the state and have been physically attending the institution.

A Stamp 1 / 4 from the work permit requires one to have full time job and physically live in Ireland as their main residency. Going elsewhere to study full time automatically disqualifies you.

When a person comes back to Ireland, an IO would check their passport and IRP card. If the IO finds an immigration stamp from Spain indicating a full time study permission there, the IO will of course raise doubts as to whether the person is abusing his conditions of Stamp 1/4. A quick check with the Spanish authorities or the stated employer will quickly find out that the person is no longer a resident in Ireland and they may be deported.

You can take your chances. After all, not all IO would check every page of your passport or scan your IRP card in the system. Whether you want to chance that and risk having a deportation/entry refusal stamp in your passport is up to you.

QuestionAboutIE94 · Post by **QuestionAboutIE94** » Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:49 am

littlerr wrote: ↑
Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:56 am

avta wrote: ↑
Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:48 am

Granista wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:00 pm
Once you leave the state, you are not resident, ordinarily or otherwise, and you lose your IRP.
Hi,
There are a lot of people leaving state with IRP and returning back. I know people who absent more than half year. They are not loosing they IRP just because of absence, even more they must have (not expired) IRP to re-enter to state. It means that topic starter can be absent for some time and can come back, there no such limit as absence TIME except IRP exp.date. He just must maintain the home address in the state to return before IRP will expire. He also must have any local tax income and other conditions in time when renew the IRP.
This is misleading. Every permission comes with a requirement of how many days one needs to live in the state. The inherent minimal is 6 months although in reality the IO will use a more practical and realistic methods to find out whether you are abusing the system.

For example, a Stamp 4 from the IIP scheme requires the person to be in the state of Ireland for at least 1 day every year for the first 3 years and after that they can get a de-facto permanent residences without coming into Ireland ever (except for renewing their IRP of course).

Similarly if you are on stamp 2/1A, you will likely be required to show proof from the institution that you are physically in the state and have been physically attending the institution.

A Stamp 1 / 4 from the work permit requires one to have full time job and physically live in Ireland as their main residency. Going elsewhere to study full time automatically disqualifies you.

When a person comes back to Ireland, an IO would check their passport and IRP card. If the IO finds an immigration stamp from Spain indicating a full time study permission there, the IO will of course raise doubts as to whether the person is abusing his conditions of Stamp 1/4. A quick check with the Spanish authorities or the stated employer will quickly find out that the person is no longer a resident in Ireland and they may be deported.

You can take your chances. After all, not all IO would check every page of your passport or scan your IRP card in the system. Whether you want to chance that and risk having a deportation/entry refusal stamp in your passport is up to you.

Thank you for such a detailed reply. I, however, have no plan to abuse the system or to get deported by taking chances. My ask is: if I simultaneously study in Spain and have a business in Ireland (obviously coming from time to time if needed), what would be my obligation to Ireland to keep Stamp 4? I'm just curious if opening a business could help me in this situation or I should just forget about this option completely and apply for a new permit when needed later? Again, I really appreciate your advice with this!

Post by **littlerr** » Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:43 pm

I don't see any written legislation that prevents you from being a student abroad. The problem is how the immigration officer is going to use their own judgement against you when there is no a clear cut on the required days. This is even more important if you want to travel back and forth multiple times - it only takes one IO to ruin your immigration history.

My understanding is that Stamp 4 requires you to be in the state on a full-time basis, so you cannot take up another full-time activity elsewhere outside the state.

However, I'm not a lawyer and maybe some immigration officers will have their different interpretation on 'full-time'. The main issue for you is again we do not know what immigration officers will think.

My suggestion is that you should at least get some written confirmation (in your favour), print them out and bring them with you whenever you enter Ireland:
- write a letter to DBEI;
- write a letter to the residence division of INIS;
- contact your local TD to submit a parliamentary question to the Minister of Justice;
- contact an immigration lawyer (you would likely have to pay $$$).

avta · Post by **avta** » Fri May 01, 2020 1:05 am

littlerr wrote: ↑
Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:43 pm

My understanding is that Stamp 4 requires you to be in the state on a full-time basis, so you cannot take up another full-time activity elsewhere outside the state.

Sorry, I can't find any such official requirements for full-time job and full-time presence in the state.
I check the official INIS web-site for STAMP 4 holders and renewals.
All the requirements are bellow:
===================
Stamp 4 indicates permission to stay in Ireland for a specified period, subject to conditions.
Stamp 4 is reckonable as residence when applying for citizenship by naturalisation.
Summary of conditions:
You can take up employment and are not required to hold an Employment Permit.
You can work in a profession, subject to conditions of the relevant professional or other bodies.
You can establish and operate a business.
You may access state funds and services as determined by Government departments or agencies.
If you wish to stay in Ireland past the expiry date of your immigration permission, you must apply to renew your permission and registration before they expire.
===================
Renew of stamp 4 require:
*Your passport
*Your current Irish Residence Permit (IRP) or 'GNIB card'
*Proof that you have private medical insurance
*Proof you are financially supported in Ireland
===================
Stamp 4 itself: "Permitted to remain in Ireland until ... Employment Permit not required. for Minister for Justice and Equality"
===================
I even check the Stamp 4 support letter - there nothing like this in requirements. The only "requirements is to return the work permit if it still valid."

Where did you find that it is required "full time job" and "be in the state on a full-time basis" for Stamp 4?

Post by **littlerr** » Fri May 01, 2020 10:52 am

avta wrote: ↑
Fri May 01, 2020 1:05 am

littlerr wrote: ↑
Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:43 pm

My understanding is that Stamp 4 requires you to be in the state on a full-time basis, so you cannot take up another full-time activity elsewhere outside the state.
Sorry, I can't find any such official requirements for full-time job and full-time presence in the state.
I check the official INIS web-site for STAMP 4 holders and renewals.
All the requirements are bellow:
===================
Stamp 4 indicates permission to stay in Ireland for a specified period, subject to conditions.
Stamp 4 is reckonable as residence when applying for citizenship by naturalisation.
Summary of conditions:
You can take up employment and are not required to hold an Employment Permit.
You can work in a profession, subject to conditions of the relevant professional or other bodies.
You can establish and operate a business.
You may access state funds and services as determined by Government departments or agencies.
If you wish to stay in Ireland past the expiry date of your immigration permission, you must apply to renew your permission and registration before they expire.
===================
Renew of stamp 4 require:
*Your passport
*Your current Irish Residence Permit (IRP) or 'GNIB card'
*Proof that you have private medical insurance
*Proof you are financially supported in Ireland
===================
Stamp 4 itself: "Permitted to remain in Ireland until ... Employment Permit not required. for Minister for Justice and Equality"
===================
I even check the Stamp 4 support letter - there nothing like this in requirements. The only "requirements is to return the work permit if it still valid."

Where did you find that it is required "full time job" and "be in the state on a full-time basis" for Stamp 4?

ireland/stamp-4-and-extended-leave-t293400.html

You are right in that you can’t find anything online. In fact, unlike most developed countries, you cannot find most of Irish legislations online easily. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist and that doesn’t mean immigration officers won’t use their common sense to scrutinise one’s life.

As I have said, I am not a lawyer and my opinion does not represent correct legal advice. That’s why I suggested the OP should confirm this with INIS or Minister of Justice, like what the other OP did in the other thread I posted. It is irresponsible to just give out important advice like this based on ‘I know someone that didn’t get caught’.

avta · Post by **avta** » Fri May 01, 2020 5:58 pm

littlerr wrote: ↑
Fri May 01, 2020 10:52 am

ireland/stamp-4-and-extended-leave-t293400.html

You are right in that you can’t find anything online. In fact, unlike most developed countries, you cannot find most of Irish legislations online easily. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist and that doesn’t mean immigration officers won’t use their common sense to scrutinise one’s life.

As I have said, I am not a lawyer and my opinion does not represent correct legal advice. That’s why I suggested the OP should confirm this with INIS or Minister of Justice, like what the other OP did in the other thread I posted. It is irresponsible to just give out important advice like this based on ‘I know someone that didn’t get caught’.

Hi,

Thank you very much for such clarification!
It's sad that there no clear published rules in single place.
It is probably some sort of court and management decisions, some faq and practice things...
I personally know that you are right and how powerful is IO decisions can be in fact.
That's how it really works...

Granista · Post by **Granista** » Tue May 05, 2020 10:54 am

You're right that people are not losing their IRP when they leave the State, but only because they don't tell INIS when they are gone, and lie to keep it.

It's very simple how it works. Stamp 4 is permission to reside in the State. When you don't reside in the State, your permission invalidates. Not sure how that's so hard to understand. You're going to need to acquire residence permission in Spain, and you can' have permissions in 2 EU states at the same time.

Post by **littlerr** » Wed May 06, 2020 3:14 pm

I got a confirmation from a senior officer from GNIB.

In general, any non-EU national holding an IRP card is required to spend most of their time in the state. They can be out of the state for no more than *90 days* per year. Activity out of the state can only be carried out on a part-time basis (e.g. short-term study, training, holiday, family visit).

Notable exceptions are Stamp 4EUFAM holders who are exercising EU Treaty Rights (180 days absence - however they should still be able to demonstrate that their main residence is in Ireland rather than abroad) and Stamp 4 holders under IIP scheme (1 day residence for the first 3 years and no requirement afterwards).

Extended leaves must be accompanied by valid reasons (e.g. medical needs, humanitarian basis, family emergency etc).

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