How to find good lawyer for an ILR app under 14 year rule?

[OL7MAX]

I believe have a good case for applying under the 14 year rule. While my original overstay 14 years ago was a violation of the visitor's visa there were extenuating circumstances at the time. Irrespective of how they view exceptional circumstances (I can see them saying, "A rule is a rule"), I seem to meet all the other factors discussed on this excellent forum (and covered at the HO pdf linked to from other threads) i.e. I have never left the UK during that time, I have never been in any trouble with the law etc. I have also married a UK national eight years ago and have three kids who carry British passports. My family and I are financially independent, run a business, and make big "contributions" to the Inland Revenue every year.

I'd like to come out of the shadows, tell the HO that I'm still here, and get my stay sorted. Would you advise a DIY route? Considering the fact that I'm applying under the 14 year rule do I even need to provide extensive documentary evidence about my (genuine) marriage and co-habitation? If I did want to pay a specialist legal advisor to assist me with the application how do I go about finding one? I did try the workpermit.com site which was a big disappointment. Their assesment form kept timing out on me. And the Immigration Lawyers' Association has about 1,500 lawyers to choose from. Surely this is a major event for most people and worthy of a choice less random than sticking a pin in a list?

Thanks in advance for any help.

[tvt]

I would recommend this very effective law firm who specialise entirely in immigration law.

http://www.plsimon.co.uk/

[ppron747]

John pointed out to me elsewhere that this former concession is now incorporated in paras 276A-276D ofthe Immigration Rules, so it is now a matter of law. Some time, perhaps, IND will update the chapter in Immigration Directorates' Instructions to reflect this.

I'm no expert, but the Rules look pretty clear-cut to me, so is it really necessary to hire a lawyer to make an application. It doesn't seem to me to be something that requirees advocacy - just evidence of the facts. What do others think?

[tvt]

If you have no doubt that you can provide very convincing factual information to prove your continuous residence here for 14 years and you also satisfy all other requirements of the IR then go for DIY. If not, use a specialist.

[OL7MAX]

If you have no doubt that you can provide very convincing factual information to prove your continuous residence here for 14 years

Ah, maybe I do need a lawyer after all. How does one prove a negative? I've never been out of the country but is producing my old and new passports enough evidence that I have never left the UK? Or will I have to prove to them that I did not sneak out and sneak back in again? (OK, I know it's unlikely but they can be awkward as some examples on this forum show.) Is there a list anywhere of all the documents I need to produce to support my application?

Also, for the first four years I stayed with relatives or rented and do not have any utility bills etc in my name. Would that prove to be a problem?

tvt, I am checked out the lawyer firm you suggested but they weren't interested..."it's not the type of case we take on". But they did suggest I talk to The Immigration Advisory Service charity which also has a paid-for service. ppron747, while they charge £295 to put together your application for au pair or spouse or work permit or anything else they charge £500 under the 14 year rule. Sounds like this application may be more involved than I originally thought. Does anyone else know if it is it more complicated than other applications?

I appreciate all the help and suggestions. Any other suggestions on legal firms, particularly on how to choose a good one, would be most appreciated.

[Chess]

Yopu need to prove 'beyond reasonable doubt' and with documentary evidence that you were physically in the UK each of the 14 years...

[OL7MAX]

Ah. Does seem illogical, though. If I need to use my passport to leave the country but the passport shows no endorsements during that 14 year period then isn't it obvious I didn't leave the country?

I'd probably have trouble showing documentary proof that I was in the country during the first four years (even though I was really here). Oh dear, I suppose I do need a good lawyer.

BTW, how come they are satisfied with proof that someone has been in the country in each of those years .... when they can require the lot more onerous proof that one that been continuously in the country during that 14 year period? Isn't the continuity part of crucial importance in satisfying the 14 years requirements?

[Kayalami]

1. What are the relevant dates of entry and visa status?

2. What steps if any have you taken to regularise your stay in the UK especially considering your marriage of 8 years to a BC?

3. If you have not taken any steps what is the reason?

Responses to this would go someway to indicate the extent if any legal representation would be appropriate. AFAIK the 14 year rule is one where fraud is a major issue especially pertaining to misrepresentation of identity. The burden of proof is on you to provide the relevant evidence. If you can't do such best consider going home and applying for a spouse visa as many others have - refer to the family immigration forum for multiple examples.

[OL7MAX]

1. Feb 1992, entered on a visitor's visa on my way to live/study in the US. An admin error at the Indian High Commission when I took my passport for renewal sort of stranded me here. It's a long story but the IHC also messed up with extending my visitor's visa (which they took responsibility for... in writing) thus causing me to breach visa conditions. Home Office was aware at that time of the issues and that my continued stay in the UK was not of my own making (I have extensive documentation of all of this). The HO put a stay on my deportation subject to being kept informed about the progress of my case. After about a year of being in limbo and losing my place and my scholarship in the US university I gave up fighting and stopped corresponding with IND.

2. None. No particular reason except that there didn't seem to be a particular reason to get it sorted earlier rather than later.

3. It would involve a journey back to India. I run a business here that requires my continued presence and three children under four years old - including a newborn - who can be hard work for my wife to manage on her own. Not compelling reasons by the standards of some cases on these boards but my preference was for the 14 year rule solely because it did not involve going back to India to apply on the grounds that I'm married to a BC. I will read more of the family immigration as per your suggestion. Maybe the process doesn't take the weeks/months I thought it would take.

I appreciate the point about ID fraud... but what is considered acceptable proof that I was resident? After the first four years I bought a property and though I didn't have a mortgage on it you do accumulate documents as a property owner, I was on the electoral role etc. For the first four years Barclays say they can provide copy statements but does a bank statement prove your residence at all? Someone not legally allowed to work in the UK wouldn't have salary slips and P60s.

There are no complications like misrepresentation of facts to the UK govt, convictions/cautions, or even speeding fines, my nose has been squeaky clean. The only violation is the overstaying my welcome.

[Jeff Albright]

Surely, you need an expert advice on this. The deportation order, if it had been issued against you, whether or not it was put on hold later, is the key issue here. You need to clarify this with the IND. Things may get difficult unless the deportation order had been fully cancelled.
You also need to specify whether it was the "deportation" or "removal" order issued, however, taking about the time you might well have had a "deportation" order...
It may take a long time to sort it out, which can run into several years... So you might need to instruct an expert lawyer plus involve your MP to speed up the process.
Best of luck anyway.

[OL7MAX]

...you need expert advice...

Perhaps I do. Which is why I started this thread: How to find good lawyer for an ILR app under 14 year rule?

I do prefer to instruct a lawyer - the cost/benefit is infinitely in favour - but I am also extremely grateful for all the professional quality advice on these forums. I have learnt a lot.

It's my understanding that the deportation issue hampers my chance of a smooth and quick spouse visa. Going back to India and applying for a spouse visa there could delay me as my visa violation/deportation order is a definite negative in the granting of SV. I could end up being stuck away from my family (and business/livelihood) for months/years.

The DO was never cancelled.

[Jeff Albright]

...you need expert advice...

Perhaps I do. Which is why I started this thread: How to find good lawyer for an ILR app under 14 year rule?

I do prefer to instruct a lawyer but I am also extremely grateful for all the professional quality advice on these forums.

Well, they are there although very expensive - some charging £300 per hour or more.
Try to contact Graeme Kirk at www.gross.co.uk
This guy is very expensive (about £350 per hour) but very experienced but he will probably be very pleased to assist you.
DJ Webb and Co. were also recommended to me at some point: www.webbimmigration.com although I don't know them. I think they offer provisional telephone consultation for something around £60.
Trevor Wornham is extremely nice guy from Wornham & Co in Birmingham - www.wornham.co.uk. He is quite young, very experienced in complex cases and was successful in number of them. He always replies by e-mail. Perhaps you should just drop him a short e-mail to explain your situation briefly. His fees are about £250 per hour but I think it is worth it.
There are some Home Office unpublished concessions for settlement, they may know about, for example if your deportation order had been cancelled and you have been waiting for the decision on your application for more than 7 years you may be eligible for the ILR - do not RELY on this fully because I have only heard something about it but information is NOT full and not checked, only for your guidance.
Just to bear in mind if your deportation order had NOT been cancelled you will probably NOT be eligible for the 14 year rule - you must first apply to the Home Secretary to have it cancelled first.
Best of luck

[John]

The HO put a stay on my deportation

Have you actually ever been served with a deportation order? Or was it just your thought that you might be deported?

Can you clarify this please.

Also your relationship with the Inland Revenue (now HMRC)? You have paid taxes over the years? Doesn't that show that you have actually been here in the UK?

And if you had left ..... just exploring this angle ... how would you have actually got back into the UK? With great difficulty! But you are here!

All in all, why do you think you will have a problem showing that you have now been in the UK for over 14 years?

[OL7MAX]

Jeff, thanks for the recommendations. I guess I'll speak with one or two immigration specialists before deciding whom to go with; I want to make sure I don't make the wrong choice. At £60 - £300 a go it's going to work out pretty expensive. C'est la vie. Unfortunately, wornham's website doesn't work and Webb's has problems with my browser, but Graeme Kirk has kindly agreed to meet with me. You were close on the money, he works out marginally cheaper than £300 for the initial consultation.

John, I have a letter stating: "The Secretary of State is ...prepared to defer the initiation of deportation proceedings..." The requirement was that I keep them updated on what was happening with getting my documents sorted by the IHC. i.e. there was a DO but they decide to defer acting on it. I did update them for a year or so and the the HO seemed to forget about me, I stopped updating them as the Indian High Commission wasn't doing anything to sort my problems out, and I am unaware if the HO did lose patience at not hearing from me and/or if they initiated action on my case (because I subsequently moved and didn't notify them). For all I know they probably don't have any documents going that far back and will have to rely on my copies!

IR gets taxes from the LTD company I set up to earn myself a living. They now also get PAYE and NI in my wife's name who is listed as a director of the company. But I didn't think I was entitled to a N.I. number (actually their site says I have to attend an interview and prove legal residence before they'll issue me with an NI number) and therefore was unable to pay tax in my own name. I did pay other taxes, like council tax, that don't require a NI number.

why do you think you will have a problem showing that you have now been in the UK for over 14 years?

It's the proving a negative thing, isn't it? How can you prove that you did not eat a big Mac on the 3rd of July 1997? Considering that any travel outside of the UK would entail a stamp in my passport at departure and re-entry it would be self-obvious from my passport that I never left the country. If they are unwilling to accept that then how does one prove one did not leave the country? Getting mail at a UK address doesn't prove anything except that I had access to collecting mail from there.... or someone forwarded them on to me.

Just to bear in mind if your deportation order had NOT been cancelled you will probably NOT be eligible for the 14 year rule

This sounds worrying. Does anyone know anymore about it?

[Jeff Albright]

Trevor Wornham site is working - i have just checked.

I did not mean to worry you. I believe you have the case. What stage your deportation proceedings had reached before they were halted? If you did not get a deportation decision you will probably be ok. If you got a deportation decision already but did not appeal you could have been served with the deportation order - this is worse. John asked you this question but I understand from your reply - you did not have it. The proceedings were probably at the very initial stage when they were halted.
You need to check it with the IND by ringing them, quoting your case ref no, date of birth and nationality. You can ask your MP to do so.

If they decide to pursue the deportation process (I honestly think they won't because of the time passed, usually if your case went into oblivion and many years passed, you will never get a decision until you chase this up vigorously) you will have the right of appeal where the Adjudicator will consider your case on its merits taking into consideration the time you have been in the country, your immigration history, the time you were waiting, the reasons of your overstaying, etc. This may well work in your favour but it will take a considerable time to resolve, that's the bad point. But you need to get the things moving now.

I meant to say that if there is a deportation order, even it is on halt, it does not make any difference - you will still have to apply for it to be cancelled. You will not be able to return to the UK if you leave. If there is a deportation decision only then you should find a lawyer and make representations as soon as possible and lodge an appeal. If there is no deportation decision, this is the best situation as you may qualify under the 14 years rule or other concessions. You need an expert advice on it.

[OL7MAX]

Ah, Jeff, the original link didn't work but if I remove the trailing dot and slash it does. Thanks.

Maybe I'll call IND to clarify exactly what the position is. Maybe I'll get, "What's it been? 14 years? You having a laugh, mate? I can't find the files from last week!"... or "The computer says No".

Sometimes it's better to have an automated system: "Please type in your case number and choose 1 to get ILR";)

[ppron747]

For what it's worth, the wprding "The Secretary of State is ...prepared to defer the initiation of deportation proceedings..." does not indicate to me that a deportation order was made.

I might be clutching at straws, but my instinct is that "the initiation of deportation proceedings" is commencing consideration as to whether to prepare a deportation order. If an order had already been made, surely they would have said something about "acting on the deportation order" or "putting the order into effect" or just "deporting you"??

Just a thought - I don't pretend to know....

[OL7MAX]

That wording itself may not be significant if there was subsequent correspondence which I did not get.

FWIW, I've learnt something today. From here and elsewhere it appears that you need to prove residency year by year only if you're applying under the 10 years of legal stay concession, not the 14 year one. The proof of residency under the 14 year concession seems to be a lot lighter.

One exception I found from a thread on these boards: An applicant's 14 year ILR paperwork was turned down as his passport seemed to have been renewed during that period in his home country. It was presumed that he had in renewed in person despite his pleas that it was all done by post.

[OL7MAX]

An update just in case anyone's interested.

I've spent some time (and a fair bit of money) to meet with supposed experts, including one at workpermit.com itself. I am left sorely disappointed. Problems are 1) they don't want to take it on or 2) they don't know what they're doing

1. As with tvt's suggested firm way back in Feb, the answer sometimes is "it's not the type of case we take on". plsimon were decent enough to tell me that before I paid me money and trekked down to meet with them. Similarly, Graeme Kirk makes no secret that he specialises in "Corporate Immigration". Others were not so scruplous. Despite my emailing an advance one page summary covering all the salient points of the case they were willing to meet with me, charge the fee etc just to state that they wouldn't be interested (for example, that they didn't do cases under the 14 year rule and they took on only WP cases. So why meet with me then?!:roll: ).

2. The ones who would be willing to take it on come across as knowing a little less immigration law than I do... and I freely admit that I don't know very much. After reading all the great advice on these boards, and the linked documents, I prepared some very specific questions but the woman from workpermit, for example, kept saying, "I think you should apply earlier rather than later" to every question, whatever the question was. If I had asked her her name she would have said, "I think you should apply earlier rather than later". It was a bit surreal. I know what Jeremy Paxman feels like. At least he didn't get to pay for the privilege. I get the feeling the place is a conveyor belt on an assembly line. Provided you're the right part at the right time - like a simple, no-complication spouse applicant - they'll mindlessly process your papers. Anything outside of that and it throws them. An "advisor" from one of the other firms wasn't aware that the 14 year "rule" is different to the 10 year one!

Which means I am back to square one.

I am now trying again to see if I can get an appointment with wornham (suggested by Jeff Albright) as I haven't been able to meet with them yet and he's away at present. Any other suggestions for good lawyers? I appreciate that the best ones may be pricey.

[jes2jes]

OL7MAX:

How are you doing? I was just reading through your case and wanted to know how you have faired so far. Not that I am in the same situation but I would be happy if you get your ILR.

Have you made a request via SAB to ascertain the DO? If not, have you found out any otherway and have you filed your application yet?

All the best in whatever stage you are. I guess it was unfortunate in the first place for your stuff to be messed up by the IHC but just look on the brighter side (Wonderful wife I guess and nice kids to compliment, on top of your own business, which not so many 'settled' residence can boast of. I guess you are a hard working chap! ).

Hats off!

[OL7MAX]

Thanks for your kind words.

I have been fortunate in my personal life. I have a fantastic wife and great kids and the only way it can improve is if my British wife agrees to move with me out of this awful country and back to India! (particularly as I don't need to work anymore). She has promised to come with me to India and check it out once I get ILR.

I did get a copy of my SAB file and it turns out that, strictly speaking, I wasn't served a deportation notice. At least, that's what two expensive barristers seem to have concluded. The laws and the regulations keep changing and what was in question was what constituted a notice way back in the year 199x. And, apparently, I didn't get a "proper" notice.

I'd rather not discuss too much about my application but will update the forum when I am granted ILR.