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Posted: **Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:07 am**

Hello All,

I currently hold a permanent residence card, which should be renewed in the year 2022. I entered in the UK with my EEA spouse, and now we both are well settled with our kids in the UK.

1: I was convicted of a Embezzlement in the year 2009, and given a community service order. There were mitigating circumstances, and my permanent residence card was issued in the year 2012.

2: I had a speeding fine in November 2007, taken by fixed camera of the council. I paid the fine by post to the council court. £ 60 and 3 points.

3: + a fixed penalty charge (by a police car)in the year 2009 again for not wearing a seatbelt.

Since then I have turned my life around, by graduating and doing proper job.

Although it is more than 3 years since those offenses took place, do you think that I am one of the worst candidates HO has come across to put me under scrutiny as section 3.8 ? @

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _D_v02.pdf

Very nervous

Thank you in advance,

DL

Posted: **Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:31 am**

ducklover26 wrote:Hello All,

I currently hold a permanent residence card, which should be renewed in the year 2022. I entered in the UK with my EEA spouse, and now we both are well settled with our kids in the UK.

1: I was convicted of a Embezzlement in the year 2009, and given a community service order. There were mitigating circumstances, and my permanent residence card was issued in the year 2012.

2: I had a speeding fine in November 2007, taken by fixed camera of the council. I paid the fine by post to the council court. £ 60 and 3 points.

3: + a fixed penalty charge (by a police car)in the year 2009 again for not wearing a seatbelt.

Since then I have turned my life around, by graduating and doing proper job.

Although it is more than 3 years since those offenses took place, do you think that I am one of the worst candidates HO has come across to put me under scrutiny as section 3.8 ? @

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _D_v02.pdf

Very nervous

Thank you in advance,

DL

These are unfortunate convictions but hardly crime of the century.

As you note, much more than 3 years has passed since those events and none resulted in any term of imprisonment.

For the last 12 months (before you apply) you have become a model citizen (law-biding, family & work-oriented) which can only stand in your favour.

You could include a brief cover letter on this topic - it may help show the caseworker you are a real and reformed person.
Include any references or testimonials you may have from an employer plus any evidence of 'giving back to the community' (if you happen to be involved in community life or voluntary work, etc).

Noone can second guess the decisions from HO but I hope the caseworker applies the HO rules fairly on your behalf.
Good luck.

Posted: **Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:21 am**

Thank you,

1: Do I need to write those speeding and safety belt fines?

2: Yes I have attempted every thing in my power to be a modal citizen. for example, when no one wanted to give me a job I registered myself as self employed, so not to do any "cash jobs".

I have a very positive work placement report, you think it can be enclosed as a supporting document?

Thank you,

Dl

Posted: **Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:28 am**

ducklover26 wrote:Thank you,

1: Do I need to write those speeding and safety belt fines?

2: Yes I have attempted every thing in my power to be a modal citizen. for example, when no one wanted to give me a job I registered myself as self employed, so not to do any "cash jobs".

I have a very positive work placement report, you think it can be enclosed as a supporting document?

Thank you,

Dl

1) Yes, as FPNs are a criminal matter not a civil penalty.

2) Yes include the report it may help.
It will help show you are employed & what your employer or manager thinks of you.
(Put a brief paragraph in the 'further information' section of the form to explain what it is).

Posted: **Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:09 pm**

Sometimes HO documents really confuse:

As per the form:

"Fixed Penalty Notices (such as speeding or parking tickets) do not form part of a person’s criminal record and will not be considered in the caseworker’s assessment of character unless:"

I think what it means, that you still disclose it, but the caseworker will sort of disregard it?

Q 2: The seat belt fine, was paid to some authority by cheque. Hence is that also a conviction which must be disclosed?

Q 3: Mitigating circumstances of the conviction should be done pro-actively or only when asked?

best

DL

Posted: **Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:54 am**

Hello,

Can a fixed fine for failing to wear seat belt in the year 2009, need to be declared? As per the page 09 of the Guide AN, all penalties must be disclosed.

Thanks,

DL

Posted: **Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:46 pm**

Hello All,

I received PR on the basis of being married to an EEA citizen.
Now the NCS at the local council is asking evidence of employment of myself from the past 5 years for BC.
I have most of the P 45's and P 60 but no job contracts.

Is it a requirement? if yes, how do i resolve my dilemna.

Please help

DL

Posted: **Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:08 pm**

Please keep your queries regarding your naturalisation application in a single topic.

Posted: **Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:10 pm**

ducklover26 wrote:Hello All,

I received PR on the basis of being married to an EEA citizen.
Now the NCS at the local council is asking evidence of employment of myself from the past 5 years for BC.
I have most of the P 45's and P 60 but no job contracts.

Is it a requirement? if yes, how do i resolve my dilemna.

Please help
DL

Have you tried contacting (past) employers?

As well as tax documents do you have official/company letters, payslips, pay reviews, annual reviews, promotion letters (etc etc).
All could help indicate you were employed.

Posted: **Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:28 pm**

HI,

Yes trying to contact now. Since for the past 6 years my wife had to do all this to prove treaty rights.
I am happy to submit my p 45s and p 60s to prove that I was working as well. Although under EEA regulations, I was never required to work (dependent on EEA spouse).

I can give approximate start dates, and confirmed end dates. But do they want the copy of appointment letters also?

I am also a full time student since 2012. Can this be used?

rgds

DL

Posted: **Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:43 pm**

ducklover26 wrote:HI,

Yes trying to contact now. Since for the past 6 years my wife had to do all this to prove treaty rights.
I am happy to submit my p 45s and p 60s to prove that I was working as well. Although under EEA regulations, I was never required to work (dependent on EEA spouse).

I can give approximate start dates, and confirmed end dates. But do they want the copy of appointment letters also?

I am also a full time student since 2012. Can this be used?

rgds

DL

I assume you are talking about the employment history question in naturalisation form.
That asks for past 10 years history (not 5).
Approximate dates should be adequate for that.

If NCS are asking for evidence of past 5 years work are they getting confused & thinking you have to demonstrate your acquisition of PR (for 'settled' status in UK) as a worker

Suggest you check with NCS on their reason for their question & the need for this evidence;
the employment history question (in the form) is more about good character (were you working illegally) rather than about proving PR.

As you say, in your case you acquired PR another way.
And being in employment is not a prerequisite for being naturalised anyway.

Posted: **Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:52 pm**

NCS just made me worried.

Technically I could have sitted on my back side (I did not do that, and never will) for 6 years, and still got PR as I was counted as a family member. The NCS guy over the email, that we must see evidence of start dates.
Eh??? I have explained to him now, that my PR was issued on the basis of my wife, not my own merit.

Now how do I handle this situation? My NCS interview is tomorrow.

Ta

Posted: **Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:58 pm**

ducklover26 wrote: NCS just made me worried.

Technically I could have sitted on my back side (I did not do that, and never will) for 6 years, and still got PR as I was counted as a family member. The NCS guy over the email, that we must see evidence of start dates.
Eh??? I have explained to him now, that my PR was issued on the basis of my wife, not my own merit.

Now how do I handle this situation? My NCS interview is tomorrow.

Ta

You need to find out which question/s they are seeking this evidence for.
- if it is for the employment history question brief details are enough.
Or, in theory, you can request such info from HMRC (although you don't have time for that immediately).

If it is to establish PR ask why they think you need to show that as you were a family member.

Worst case you have the interview tomorrow but may need to hold off from submitting the full application until details are clarified.
You will 'lose' the NCS fee but won't have put the naturalisation fee at risk.
Simply sort out the papers and go back to NCS a second time.

But find out how they intend to use the documents first of all.

Posted: **Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:05 pm**

Thanks your post makes sense. For further clarity my PR was issued in October 2012.

Yes, he is asking for the employment history evidence.

"You need to find out which question/s they are seeking this evidence for.
- if it is for the employment history question brief details are enough."

My questions here:

1: Do you mean, that HO do not require evidence of the employment records, and take the form on its face value? or it is a must to enclose the employment records along with the form AN?

Posted: **Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:28 pm**

ducklover26 wrote:Thanks your post makes sense. For further clarity my PR was issued in October 2012.

Yes, he is asking for the employment history evidence.

"You need to find out which question/s they are seeking this evidence for.
- if it is for the employment history question brief details are enough."

My questions here:

1: Do you mean, that HO do not require evidence of the employment records, and take the form on its face value? or it is a must to enclose the employment records along with the form AN?

ok, so it's all about employment history not about establishing PR (which ofcourse you don't need to do).

I am going by other postings on the forum where people have only had approximate dates for some of their past employment.

The tax documents you have will surely help guide you towards these approximate dates.
So take any/all of the tax docs you do have with you.

However in some cases people (with time on their side) have also applied to HMRC for a copy of their employment record (derived from tax & NI records).

If NCS really insist the evidence & dates you have are not enough, can only suggest you apply to HMRC for the information.
Make another NCS appointment when you have the full information.

Ref guidance here: http://robertleach.co.uk/2013/08/reques ... from-hmrc/
&
see Gov UK: https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ry-request

Good luck.

Posted: **Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:43 pm**

Ok, here is the update and the planned "plan".

1: HMRC sending job history in 7 - 10 days.
2: Got success with some past employers to give the dates. But nothing in writing due to paucity of time.
3: So I will write approx start dates as derived from the P 45's, pay slips and explain to the HO honestly.

Saying that, does the HO actually want to see your employment history? and Do their guidelines
dictate that?

Here is the email I sent to the NCS.

QUOTE:

"Tried to phone you, but missed you.

I am unsure if we discussed this before, but I entered the UK on the basis of being married to an EEA Citizen. During the time of receiving my permanent residence card, only my EEA Spouse had to provide the evidence of exercising her treaty rights. That is the way I received my Permanent UK Residence permanent. Until the year 2012, I was dependent on my EEA Spouse.

I will contact my last employer from the year 2012 till January 2015 to request for a letter, as my job started with a formal interview, but no job contract was ever signed.
Saying that I do have the P 60s, and P 45 to confirm my tenure there.

If I do get a letter, then can it be submitted at later stage to the HO directly as well?

Regards,"

UNQUOTE

Posted: **Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:35 pm**

ducklover26 wrote:Ok, here is the update and the planned "plan".

1: HMRC sending job history in 7 - 10 days.
2: Got success with some past employers to give the dates. But nothing in writing due to paucity of time.
3: So I will write approx start dates as derived from the P 45's, pay slips and explain to the HO honestly.

Saying that, does the HO actually want to see your employment history? and Do their guidelines
dictate that?

Here is the email I sent to the NCS.

QUOTE:

"Tried to phone you, but missed you.

I am unsure if we discussed this before, but I entered the UK on the basis of being married to an EEA Citizen. During the time of receiving my permanent residence card, only my EEA Spouse had to provide the evidence of exercising her treaty rights. That is the way I received my Permanent UK Residence permanent. Until the year 2012, I was dependent on my EEA Spouse.

I will contact my last employer from the year 2012 till January 2015 to request for a letter, as my job started with a formal interview, but no job contract was ever signed.
Saying that I do have the P 60s, and P 45 to confirm my tenure there.

If I do get a letter, then can it be submitted at later stage to the HO directly as well?

Regards,"

UNQUOTE

Good plan of action.
The facts you gather from 1-3 should be comprehensive enough.

Yes afaik HO wants to see employment history as part of their crosschecking & verification against the various data sources that they have.

For example, (thinking out of the box here), they are likely to be looking for traces & evidence of any illegal working &/or tax avoidance (etc etc).

Not sure if NCS will advise you to submit letters to HO separately.
You may have to hold off with the application & go back to NCS later.
But as your 1st appointment is already set up you can only go along & see what they advise.

Posted: **Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:39 pm**

You can see an email about the need for employment history from a HO official, as per this thread:
british-citizenship/ukba-reply-over-nat ... %20history

Where an applicant cannot provide details of their employment history, they should provide details of their tax history

- it sounds like your tax documents will be adequate

Posted: **Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:19 pm**

noajthan wrote:
ducklover26 wrote:Ok, here is the update and the planned "plan".

1: HMRC sending job history in 7 - 10 days.
2: Got success with some past employers to give the dates. But nothing in writing due to paucity of time.
3: So I will write approx start dates as derived from the P 45's, pay slips and explain to the HO honestly.

Saying that, does the HO actually want to see your employment history? and Do their guidelines
dictate that?

Here is the email I sent to the NCS.

QUOTE:

"Tried to phone you, but missed you.

I am unsure if we discussed this before, but I entered the UK on the basis of being married to an EEA Citizen. During the time of receiving my permanent residence card, only my EEA Spouse had to provide the evidence of exercising her treaty rights. That is the way I received my Permanent UK Residence permanent. Until the year 2012, I was dependent on my EEA Spouse.

I will contact my last employer from the year 2012 till January 2015 to request for a letter, as my job started with a formal interview, but no job contract was ever signed.
Saying that I do have the P 60s, and P 45 to confirm my tenure there.

If I do get a letter, then can it be submitted at later stage to the HO directly as well?

Regards,"

UNQUOTE
Good plan of action.
The facts you gather from 1-3 should be comprehensive enough.

Yes afaik HO wants to see employment history as part of their crosschecking & verification against the various data sources that they have.

For example, (thinking out of the box here), they are likely to be looking for traces & evidence of any illegal working &/or tax avoidance (etc etc).

Not sure if NCS will advise you to submit letters to HO separately.
You may have to hold off with the application & go back to NCS later.
But as your 1st appointment is already set up you can only go along & see what they advise.

Please let us know how it goes tomorrow. Hope well! Because I'm in the same situation. The only exact dates that I can provide is proof of employment is the month...even if I provide them with P60 it doesnt state a date. I can provide them all the payslips (NCS will have a sh*t load to copy then) of my husband who worked during the pr time.... The 3 jobs he worked; he does not have a contract for any of them. Only p60 and payslips.

Posted: **Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:24 pm**

Sure.

I will, tell you as soon as I walk out.
But I think that the NCS guy is being too "pen pushy" type!

Posted: **Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:37 pm**

Just to share, that a very simple employer (a pizza shop)from past has agreed to type, sign and provide me the employment letter in next 3 hours! Very touching!

Posted: **Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:37 pm**

Hello All,

Moderator, this is a different topic from me.

What are the advantages of applying directly, if you sensibly give all the documents, and read the guides before sending the app and the money?

The reason I am asking for, is that a local NCS (not in England) is being an absolute Pen Pusher, and is becoming so painful that I do not wish to apply through him.

Please share your experiences of direct apps vs NCS?

Thanks

Dl

Posted: **Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:52 pm**

ducklover26 wrote:What are the advantages of applying directly, if you sensibly give all the documents, and read the guides before sending the app and the money?

None. Whether you apply on your own by post or through NCS, it lands at the same office and goes through the same process of evaluation. The advantage NCS offers is that they check for completeness and you get to keep your original documents with you! That's it!!

ducklover26 wrote:The reason I am asking for, is that a local NCS (not in England) is being an absolute Pen Pusher, and is becoming so painful that I do not wish to apply through him.

You may apply through any council that provides NCS, it doesn't need to be your local council.

ducklover26 wrote:Please share your experiences of direct apps vs NCS?

Why not search the forum for information already available and experiences already shared, than asking people to pen down their experiences again? Will save your time as well as others' too.

Posted: **Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:59 pm**

Thank you.

For past 3 years I am also a full time student, but I did reasonably good p/t jobs as well (all legal)
The way I have filled up my form's employment section is like this:

1: Year 2013- Current : Student F/t @ College ABCDEFG
2: Year 2013- Current : P/t worker @ blahblah employer.

I wanted put all the cards clear on the table, hence wrote education also in the employment section.

any views please?

Posted: **Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:06 pm**

ducklover26 wrote:I wanted put all the cards clear on the table, hence wrote education also in the employment section.

Unless you wish everyone to consider you foolish or incapable of understanding what "employment" means, don't!

The more ambiguous the details are in your application, the more the delay will be in deciding your application.

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