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Dear Members,

I am an EEA national married to another EEA national.
I have not exercised Treaty Rights on my own.
I think I can apply for naturalisation as a family member of an EEA national but during my conversation with the UKVI helpline the adviser told me that I can't apply as a family member of an EEA national because it is only for non EEA family members.

Can you advise if I can apply as an family member of an EEA national being EEA national myself and if so point me to any guide/legislation clarifying this.

Many thanks

Andromeda2 wrote:Dear Members,

I am an EEA national married to another EEA national.
I have not exercised Treaty Rights on my own.
I think I can apply for naturalisation as a family member of an EEA national but during my conversation with the UKVI helpline the adviser told me that I can't apply as a family member of an EEA national because it is only for non EEA family members.

Can you advise if I can apply as an family member of an EEA national being EEA national myself and if so point me to any guide/legislation clarifying this.

Many thanks

The helpline can be notoriously unhelpful/unreliable.

You can of course be the dependent of an EEA national.

Family members who come under Regulation 7(1)(a), (b) and (c) of the Immigration (EEA) Regulations 2006 (‘the Regulations’) are often called ‘core ‘or ‘direct’ family members

Ref. HO guidance:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... s_v3_0.pdf
- for example see page 12 onwards

Evidence of identity
They must provide evidence of identity and nationality for themselves and their EEA sponsor in the form of a:

• valid passport (or EEA identity card if they are themselves an EEA national);
  valid EEA passport or EEA identity card for their EEA national sponsor

If your EEA sponsor is exercising treaty rights as a qualified person and does so continuously in UK for 5 years they can automatically acquire PR (settled status).
And so can you as a dependent family member of such an EEA national/sponsor.

PR is a vital prerequisite to the privilege of citizenship (assuming UK remains in UK).

Viva EU free movement

noajthan wrote: The helpline can be notoriously unhelpful/unreliable.

That's true - I learned that today.
Thank you so much for your quick and informative reply.
Best wishes

I have read The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006 and developed more doubts.

noajthan wrote:

Family members who come under Regulation 7(1)(a), (b) and (c) of the Immigration (EEA) Regulations 2006 (‘the Regulations’) are often called ‘core ‘or ‘direct’ family members

Regulation 15(1)(b)

a family member of an EEA national who is not himself an EEA national but who has resided in the United Kingdom with the EEA national in accordance with these Regulations for a continuous period of five years;

But you are right, the HO guidance regarding permanent residence certyficates seems to be inconsistent with this regulation.

Please help me out
Many thanks

Andromeda2 wrote:I have read The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006 and developed more doubts.

noajthan wrote:

Family members who come under Regulation 7(1)(a), (b) and (c) of the Immigration (EEA) Regulations 2006 (‘the Regulations’) are often called ‘core ‘or ‘direct’ family members

Regulation 15(1)(b)

a family member of an EEA national who is not himself an EEA national but who has resided in the United Kingdom with the EEA national in accordance with these Regulations for a continuous period of five years;

But you are right, the HO guidance regarding permanent residence certyficates seems to be inconsistent with this regulation.

Please help me out
Many thanks

Chin up. See example on page 20 of the HO doc I posted (above).

Mrs A, a French national, entered the UK with her son, aged 7, using their French passports.
She came to the UK to join her husband who is also a French national. He is in full time employment in the UK.

Three months after arriving in the UK ,Mrs A applies for documents to confirm the right of residence for herself and her son.
...

... Mrs A has provided proof of her own, her husband’s and her son’s identity. She has provided proof that her husband is a qualified person and she is related as claimed. You can issue a registration certificate to Mrs A and her son

Also this:

An EEA national who claims to be the family member of another EEA national will have a right of appeal even if they do not produce evidence of relationship, as long as they have produced evidence to show they are an EEA national

It doesn't make sense if an EEA national can be issued a RC as dependent of another EEA national but then not be permitted to acquire PR

I think Reg 15 1)a applies to a spouse who is a family member but also an EEA national in their own right.

noajthan wrote: I think Reg 15 1)a applies to a spouse who is a family member but also an EEA national in their own right.

Yes I think you are right - I missed it.
So happy I was wrong

You are so helpful.
Again many many thanks

Andromeda2 wrote:

noajthan wrote: I think Reg 15 1)a applies to a spouse who is a family member but also an EEA national in their own right.

Yes I think you are right - I missed it.
So happy I was wrong

You are so helpful.
Again many many thanks

No worries, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Does your sponsor (spouse) have PR? (& 'confirmation of PR' card) ?
Or are they still exercising treaty rights in UK (with their PR clock started & running) to acquire PR?

A PR card (theirs) will help as evidence for your naturalisation application.

Note you could choose to apply for your (&/or your sponsor's) confirmation of PR card first;
ie before shooting for the holy grail of naturalisation.

If any doubts over PR it's a lower risk strategy because issues can be identified at the lower cost of a £65 fee, (instead of putting the naturalisation fee at risk, with no appeal right).

Good luck.

noajthan wrote: Does your sponsor (spouse) have PR? (& 'confirmation of PR' card) ?
Or are they still exercising treaty rights in UK (with their PR clock started & running) to acquire PR?
A PR card (theirs) will help as evidence for your naturalisation application.

My spouse has exercised Treaty rights since November 2009 (and continues to do so).
Neither of us applied for any PR confirmation.

noajthan wrote: If any doubts over PR it's a lower risk strategy because issues can be identified at the lower cost of a £65 fee, (instead of putting the naturalisation fee at risk, with no appeal right).

There are two potential issues with our applications.
1. The AN form doesn't seem to be as straightforward as the EEA (PR) form in case of an EEA national applying as a family member of another EEA national.
2. We are A8 nationals and Home Office put my spouse old name (before marriage) in the WRS registration certificate. My spouse contacted them regarding that and they said it is because my spouse sent an identification document stating the old name instead of current one (I'm not sure that was the case, maybe just their mistake but that's what they say) and that they will put the current name on the new certificate if my spouse changes employer in the future - what they didn't do despite my spouse changed employer. We have the letter from them confirming registration dates and details addressed in my spouse current name but I am not sure what name they hold on their system.

Other than that I think it is straightforward as there is continous employment going for almost 6 years and we have the evidence for that (P60s, P45, confirmation letters from employers).

As applying for PR first means we need to wait 13-16 months to naturalise on that basis (PR application processing time + 12 months) we would prefer direct naturalisation but losing 3 application fees (my, my spouse and our child) in case of refusal would be bad.

Please advise whether it is better to apply for PR first and wait or apply for naturalisation directly in our case.

Andromeda2 wrote:

noajthan wrote: Does your sponsor (spouse) have PR? (& 'confirmation of PR' card) ?
Or are they still exercising treaty rights in UK (with their PR clock started & running) to acquire PR?
A PR card (theirs) will help as evidence for your naturalisation application.

My spouse has exercised Treaty rights since November 2009 (and continues to do so).
Neither of us applied for any PR confirmation.

noajthan wrote: If any doubts over PR it's a lower risk strategy because issues can be identified at the lower cost of a £65 fee, (instead of putting the naturalisation fee at risk, with no appeal right).

There are two potential issues with our applications.
1. The AN form doesn't seem to be as straightforward as the EEA (PR) form in case of an EEA national applying as a family member of another EEA national.
2. We are A8 nationals and Home Office put my spouse old name (before marriage) in the WRS registration certificate. My spouse contacted them regarding that and they said it is because my spouse sent an identification document stating the old name instead of current one (I'm not sure that was the case, maybe just their mistake but that's what they say) and that they will put the current name on the new certificate if my spouse changes employer in the future - what they didn't do despite my spouse changed employer. We have the letter from them confirming registration dates and details addressed in my spouse current name but I am not sure what name they hold on their system.

Other than that I think it is straightforward as there is continous employment going for almost 6 years and we have the evidence for that (P60s, P45, confirmation letters from employers).

As applying for PR first means we need to wait 13-16 months to naturalise on that basis (PR application processing time + 12 months) we would prefer direct naturalisation but losing 3 application fees (my, my spouse and our child) in case of refusal would be bad.

Please advise whether it is better to apply for PR first and wait or apply for naturalisation directly in our case.

So your joint PR clock started 2009 - PR could/should have been automatically acquired sometime in 2014.
Hold that settled status to be free of immigration time restrictions for 12 months & it should be possible to apply for naturalisation around now;
- which is why you are posting in forum ofcourse.
(Also: assuming all other requirements for citizenship can be met).

PR card is optional, it simply confirms status (it doesn't grant it).
As you mentioned, applying for PR card would cause a delay. But it does not have to be 12 months.

Cunning plan...
You could still:
1) apply for PR card (for low-risk reassurance) to be sure of settled status;
then
2) not use it in naturalisation application ( )

Once PR has been confirmed apply to naturalise; submit all treaty rights evidence again
ie to again prove treaty rights for period of 2009-2014 instead of submitting PR card & waiting 12 months from date of issue.

1) Yes, the AN form is challenging/intimidating.

It is a generic form & it is based on different legislation (BNA instead of EU regulations).

A comprehensive covering letter, fully explaining your timeline, (when you acquired PR etc etc), will help 'spoonfeed' the caseworker to understand your exact circumstances.

2) Name difference on WRS certificate can be explained with marriage certificate & cover letter.

Note one of you can apply to naturalise first.
The 2nd adult can apply immediately the 1st is naturalised; as spouse of a BC no need to wait another 12 months with PR.

Note Minor (child) is registered not naturalised; they can be registered at same time as second parent is applying to naturalise.

So several options...
Shoot for PR card/s for 1 or both adults.
This reduces risk (to fees) in case of doubt around PR.

Alternately, if sure of PR & you have concrete supporting evidence you could skip the PR card step.
(It only provides reassurance after all).

Apply to naturalise/register in phases.
This spreads 'risk', one adult applies first; pay just one adult fee first - see how that goes.
Then follow on with 2nd adult & child.

I would not presume to tell you which will work best for you (it's your future & your hard-earned cash, I can't spend it for you), but these are some options for you to think about,
Hope it helps.

And I'm sure other esteemed members can come up with positive suggestions too.

Good point - I think we will apply for a PR certificate first.
Thank you very much noajthan - you are brilliant!
All the best