Immigrationboards.com

My grandmother, my mother and I are all British citizens.

My mother was born in the States as her father was working there. I was born in Germany but have lived in the UK since the age of 5.

My son was born in January in France but I am only in France for the short term and am still a UK resident (not French resident).

The UK refused my request to get my son British citizenship. I understand I am technically only a citizen by descent, but my Grandmother was British and spent almost all her life in the UK, same with my mother and same with me. Yet because we were all unlucky enough to have parents that travelled for work, my son has been refused a passport.

I'm not very confident in the UK system, in their refusal they even got his sex wrong, referring to him as my daughter. Do I have any options available to me? The reading I have done seems to indicate he won't qualify for citizenship, which given our circumstances seems absurd.

Did you apply directly for a British passport for your son, or a MNI Registration?

I filled in MN1.

londonparent wrote:I filled in MN1.

I'll leave others better placed to advise.

The refusal is correct, you much check the law before sending a costly application.

If you were away from the UK for a period of 270 days in the 3 years leading to the application, then you will fail.

The fact you were habitually resident in the UK will not change things, physical presence is required.

The burden is on you to demonstrate that in the 3 years preceding the application, you had not been absent from the UK for 270 days or more.

Obie wrote:The refusal is correct, you much check the law before sending a costly application.

If you were away from the UK for a period of 270 days in the 3 years leading to the application, then you will fail.

The fact you were habitually resident in the UK will not change things, physical presence is required.

The burden is on you to demonstrate that in the 3 years preceding the application, you had not been absent from the UK for 270 days or more.

Obie, the application was for the OP's son, born in the UK in January this year.

The application was for son born in France, I don't think it is UK. The introductory post indicates France.

If child was born in UK , then section 1 (1)(a) would have applied.

The question for her is was she living in the UK for a complete 3 years ending on or before the date of the registration under Section 3 (5), and during that period, was she absent from the UK for more than 270 days?

Obie wrote:The application was for son born in France, I don't think it is UK. The introductory post indicates France.

If child was born in UK , then section 1 (1)(a) would have applied.

The question for her is was she living in the UK for a complete 3 years ending on or before the date of the registration under Section 3 (5), and during that period, was she absent from the UK for more than 270 days?

Thanks. I need to clean my spectacles!

If the son was born in January, then Section 3(5) is not applicable at the moment.
Under Section 3(2), the requirements are subject to Section 3(3):

3 wrote:(3)The requirements referred to in subsection (2) are—

(a)that the parent in question was a British citizen by descent at the time of the birth; and

(b)that the father or mother of the parent in question—

(i)was a British citizen otherwise than by descent at the time of the birth of the parent in question; or

(ii)became a British citizen otherwise than by descent at commencement, or would have become such a citizen otherwise than by descent at commencement but for his or her death; and

( c ) that, as regards some period of three years ending with a date not later than the date of the birth—
(i)the parent in question was in the United Kingdom [F3or a qualifying territory] at the beginning of that period; and

(ii)the number of days on which the parent in question was absent from the United Kingdom [F4and the qualifying territories] in that period does not exceed 270.

londonparent wrote:My mother was born in the States as her father was working there. I was born in Germany but have lived in the UK since the age of 5.

In ( c ), I think that the "some" period may refer to any 3-year period since she was in the UK at age 5 until the birth of her son.

However, the problem may be ( b ).

Her mother was born in the States. Was her mother British otherwise than by descent?

vinny wrote:Her mother was born in the States. Was her mother British otherwise than by descent?

We believe so, but don't think this is marked correctly on her birth certificate. My mother was born whilst her father was serving in the British Army and was stationed in the US, so it should be "otherwise than by descent", though we'd need to go back and get all the paperwork to show this.

What reasons did they give for the refusal?

As you can see from my post the paragraph my mind was set on was 3(2), and I am most grateful to you for pointing that out.

I envisaged that the OP's mother would have been a British Otherwise than by descent, as OP will otherwise not have been a British Citizen when she was born outside the UK. therefore notwithstanding that her mother was not born in the UK, it is likely that she is British otherwise than by descent.

OP mentioned residence as opposed to Physical presence, and i was seeking to point that for the purpose of the legislation, it matters not if you are residence, what is required is Physical presence over the relevant period.

Yes. The numbers of days in and out of the UK are important. It would be helpful to know the reasons they gave for their refusal.

vinny wrote:Yes. The numbers of days in and out of the UK are important. It would be helpful to know the reasons they gave for their refusal.

I concur .

Moreover, how would a British citizen prove the periods in and out of the UK without any UK stamps the a UK passport?

People are asked to provide payslip or P60 covering that period or untility bills or letter from Hospital, covering those relevant period.

They also trust the declaration made by the person in regards to their travel, unless they have evidence that it is demonstrably false.

Thanks, Obie.

vinny wrote:Yes. The numbers of days in and out of the UK are important. It would be helpful to know the reasons they gave for their refusal.

Reason for refusal was that I am only a citizen by descent and therefore child has no automatic right to citizenship.

Well if you applied for MN1, that is a clear indication that you understand that child does not have automatic right to citizenship.

Was it passport that you applied for or Form MN1 for Registration?

If it was MN1 Registration under Section 3(2) as pointed out by Vinny, would would have expected a bit more detail that that.

londonparent wrote:

vinny wrote:Yes. The numbers of days in and out of the UK are important. It would be helpful to know the reasons they gave for their refusal.

Reason for refusal was that I am only a citizen by descent and therefore child has no automatic right to citizenship.

Under which section of the BNA did you apply for your children? Section 1(3), 3(1), 3(5), 3(2) etc.

Obie wrote:Well if you applied for MN1, that is a clear indication that you understand that child does not have automatic right to citizenship.

Was it passport that you applied for or Form MN1 for Registration?

If it was MN1 Registration under Section 3(2) as pointed out by Vinny, would would have expected a bit more detail that that.

Sorry my mistake. It wasn;t MN1, it was "Application to Register a Birth Overseas".

Unfortunately you cannot do that. You can only register the birth of a British child overseas.

Your child is not British as he was not born in the UK, and was born to a British Citizen by descent. You will first need to register him or her as British and then you can apply for a passport .

As mentioned by Obie, the child is not British.

The registration that is required is not the "Application to register a birth overseas", but using Form MN1 (be sure to read the guidance carefully). The current registration fee is £936.

What you will need, at a minimum, are
a) The birth certificates for your child, yourself, your mother and if possible, the birth and marriage certificates of your maternal grandfather (to prove that he was a British subject by birth in the UK).
b) Proof that your maternal grandfather was a British subject in Crown Service (with the British Army) at the time of your mother's birth in the US. This proof is vital to make your mother (the child's grandmother) a British citizen otherwise than by descent.

The application would be under Section 3(2) of the BNA 1981, which is an entitlement, provided you can prove the Crown Service of your maternal grandfather. Otherwise, it would be under Section 3(1), at the Home Office's discretion.

Be aware that the child will not be able to pass on the British citizenship to their children born abroad, as you are a British citizen by descent. Any children born to him/her in the UK will of course be a British citizen otherwise than by descent in their own right.

secret.simon wrote:As mentioned by Obie, the child is not British.

The registration that is required is not the "Application to register a birth overseas", but using Form MN1 (be sure to read the guidance carefully). The current registration fee is £936.

What you will need, at a minimum, are
a) The birth certificates for your child, yourself, your mother and if possible, the birth and marriage certificates of your maternal grandfather (to prove that he was a British subject by birth in the UK).
b) Proof that your maternal grandfather was a British subject in Crown Service (with the British Army) at the time of your mother's birth in the US. This proof is vital to make your mother (the child's grandmother) a British citizen otherwise than by descent.

The application would be under Section 3(2) of the BNA 1981, which is an entitlement, provided you can prove the Crown Service of your maternal grandfather. Otherwise, it would be under Section 3(1), at the Home Office's discretion.

Be aware that the child will not be able to pass on the British citizenship to their children born abroad, as you are a British citizen by descent. Any children born to him/her in the UK will of course be a British citizen otherwise than by descent in their own right.

Thank you for all the replies. Maternal grandfather was Canadian (not British). Grandmother went to the US when he was station there working for the Crown but was herself not in Crown Service. :/

What is the UK immigration status, if any, of the child's other parent? How long has the child lived in the UK?

When was your maternal grandfather born?

It is beginning to look as if your child has no entitlement/right to be registered as a British citizen. It may still be possible to register him as a British citizen, under Section 3(1), but that would be at the Home Office's discretion. For that you would have to prove that the child's future lies in the UK, because both parents are settled in the UK for example.

Alternatively, if the child stays with you in the UK for three years, s/he is entitled to be registered as a British citizen under Section 3(5). I believe that that would make them a British citizen otherwise than by descent. The child's UK immigration status for the initial three years will be based on that of the less-privileged parent (in this case, likely your spouse).