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Passport challenges with patronymic name
Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:52 am
by dita7
I've been told today by Home Office that I have two identities because my Russian external passport does not translate my Patronymic name, whilst other EU passport has it present. This is absolute bonkers! How can people who been entrusted with dealing with applications for non-UK born British citizens don't have common knowledge of international laws and principles? This is so bizarre!
Re: Passport challenges with patronymic name
Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:05 pm
by joeano353
dita7 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:52 am
I've been told today by Home Office that I have two identities because my Russian external passport does not translate my Patronymic name, whilst other EU passport has it present. This is absolute bonkers! How can people who been entrusted with dealing with applications for non-UK born British citizens don't have common knowledge of international laws and principles? This is so bizarre!
You should chill down a little. UK HO case workers are not fools as you are trying to make out to be. They probably are over cautious but if you think they should follow the rules and systems of 193 countries in the world, you are preposterous. Remember you are not the only Russian who has this problem and they would have known by now all about patronmic names. If you want a British passport, follow British rules and smoothen out your issues.
Re: Passport challenges with patronymic name
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:08 pm
by obm
joeano353 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:05 pm
dita7 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:52 am
I've been told today by Home Office that I have two identities because my Russian external passport does not translate my Patronymic name, whilst other EU passport has it present. This is absolute bonkers! How can people who been entrusted with dealing with applications for non-UK born British citizens don't have common knowledge of international laws and principles? This is so bizarre!
You should chill down a little. UK HO case workers are not fools as you are trying to make out to be. They probably are over cautious but if you think they should follow the rules and systems of 193 countries in the world, you are preposterous. Remember you are not the only Russian who has this problem and they would have known by now all about patronmic names. If you want a British passport, follow British rules and smoothen out your issues.
I do not think joeano353 your defence of HMPO case workers is sound enough - very strict guidelines and overload of cases, pushed up by revenue margins - that's the reality of Tory gov't, which introduced all these silly rules of aligning names and other bs. In fact, she might be indeed the 'only Russian' with this problem as I have not heard any, absolutely anyone in my life here over 15 years now, who mentioned anything about problems with their russian patronymic. Canadians know about it (
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-re ... -gcms.html), Americans do, and I'm sure may other big Western powers. BUT suddenly, out of the blue, one tiny overworked case worker decides to flag it and make life miserable for no reason whatsoever! That's what one can call 'preposterous'. The HMPO definetely need to smoothen their issues...
Re: Passport challenges with patronymic name
Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:25 pm
by joeano353
I am not so much defending HO case workers but advocating bending to the rules inorder to smoothen out the issue. Refusal of an application is not the decision by just one case worker but the decision confirmed by at least a supervisor. Once I called to clarify an issue and I was kept on hold whilst he "consulted his supervisor". So things are not taken lightly. If the government has decided that certain procedure should be followed, employees are duty bound to follow them and will follow them. Why do people believe that they have a right to something because other countries like Canada and the US do something different? You are not applying for a Canadian or US passport.
Re: Passport challenges with patronymic name
Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:11 am
by obm
joeano353 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:25 pm
I am not so much defending HO case workers but advocating bending to the rules inorder to smoothen out the issue. Refusal of an application is not the decision by just one case worker but the decision confirmed by at least a supervisor. Once I called to clarify an issue and I was kept on hold whilst he "consulted his supervisor". So things are not taken lightly. If the government has decided that certain procedure should be followed, employees are duty bound to follow them and will follow them. Why do people believe that they have a right to something because other countries like Canada and the US do something different? You are not applying for a Canadian or US passport.
Straight to the point joeano353, indeed, we don't have any rights here and HO operates under Royal Prerogative, so no need for democratically passed through Parliament rules®s, but of course we can bend to the arbitrary "rules" of the HMPO Policy Directorate - that's who supers have to go to in order to make any 'cautious' decisions (you'll see what I mean if you've read threads on
british-citizenship/new-policy-regardin ... 16754.html)
Re: Passport challenges with patronymic name
Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:20 pm
by joeano353
Preciselly!!! British nationality is highly prized. They dont sell nationality like the Islands. Even if its an island. Name issue is trivial, but other countries too have rules that dont make sense. Being Canadian you believe that you are now the centre of the planet as its attracting the most immigrants. UK does not need to blindly follow the processes of other countries. Its not that we are treated like a nuisance but rules are made for a reason. I am not a sheep that follows but it has to be one rule for everybody not just for Crylic alphabet. People who use arabic have names that have to be phonetically translated and e, i, a can replace each other. They are refused if one document issued by their govt uses one in the brith certi, national id, passport. So why not the Crylic transliteration??
Re: Passport challenges with patronymic name
Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:18 pm
by Casa
joeano353 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:20 pm
Preciselly!!! British nationality is highly prized. They dont sell nationality like the Islands. Even if its an island. Name issue is trivial, but other countries too have rules that dont make sense. Being Canadian you believe that you are now the centre of the planet as its attracting the most immigrants. UK does not need to blindly follow the processes of other countries. Its not that we are treated like a nuisance but rules are made for a reason. I am not a sheep that follows but it has to be one rule for everybody not just for Crylic alphabet. People who use arabic have names that have to be phonetically translated and e, i, a can replace each other. They are refused if one document issued by their govt uses one in the brith certi, national id, passport. So why not the Crylic transliteration??
It may be unintentional, but your comments could be perceived as disrespectful to the OP. Please post with
consideration to avoid offence.
Re: Passport challenges with patronymic name
Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:37 pm
by dita7
joeano353 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:05 pm
You should chill down a little. UK HO case workers are not fools as you are trying to make out to be. They probably are over cautious but if you think they should follow the rules and systems of 193 countries in the world, you are preposterous. Remember you are not the only Russian who has this problem and they would have known by now all about patronmic names. If you want a British passport, follow British rules and smoothen out your issues.
I am calm, just frustrated. HMPO are aware about patronymic names and they confirmed this fact on the phone, however they still use it as the reason for rejection and suggest a person has two nationalities ... this is simply .... decide for yourself
Re: Passport challenges with patronymic name
Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:32 am
by obm
Surely there are many more such cases of frustration over clear sabotage of simple rules re passports. I would ask for any response from HO in writing though - somebody saying something over the phone is hard to prove afterwards...
Re: Passport challenges with patronymic name
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:41 pm
by obm
Here's an interesting prophetic post on this topic from a (former) UK immigration lawyer xxxxxxxxx from May 2018:
Link to blog by a banned forum member removed by moderator
Re: Passport challenges with patronymic name
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:49 pm
by CR001
obm wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:41 pm
Here's an interesting prophetic post on this topic from a (former) UK immigration lawyer xxxxxxxxx from May 2018:
Link to blog by a banned forum member removed by moderator
The user you quoted has been banned from the forum for trolling, wholly incorrect advice and abuse of members.
Please do NOT post this persons name or details.
You should also read the forum rules in regard to posting any details relating to solicitors/advisors etc.
Re: Passport challenges with patronymic name
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:54 pm
by obm
Ok, didn't know that was a problem - first time hear this name...
Re: Passport challenges with patronymic name
Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:18 pm
by obm
Here's another interesting but old document, allegedly from Interpol UK branch, dating back to 2006 - clearly explaining different name structures, including Russian patronymics, which are not part of a person's name, but derivatives of that person's father's name - a useful piece of information about a person, but NOT that person's property for the purpose of international passport issue:
https://www.fbiic.gov/public/2008/nov/N ... K_2006.pdf
In English-speaking academic linguistic tradition, however, 'patronym' means something else - the first type of surname, derived from personal name of the father (e.g. John-son, son of John, McColl, Fitzpatrick, etc), I wonder whether HO has started to confuse things big time again...
Re: Passport challenges with patronymic name
Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:41 pm
by joeano353
Its about time you realise that HO or HMPO is not manned by fools. Everybody loves to dictate how HO should do their job. Strangely they are not even citizens yet but believe they know how the UK govt should do their job.
Re: Passport challenges with patronymic name
Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:05 pm
by Casa
joeano353 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:41 pm
Its about time you realise that HO or HMPO is not manned by fools. Everybody loves to dictate how HO should do their job. Strangely they are not even citizens yet but believe they know how the UK govt should do their job.
Please only post if you have any constructive advice, rather than criticism.
Re: Passport challenges with patronymic name
Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:16 pm
by R-graphite
Precisely
Casa wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:05 pm
joeano353 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:41 pm
Its about time you realise that HO or HMPO is not manned by fools. Everybody loves to dictate how HO should do their job. Strangely they are not even citizens yet but believe they know how the UK govt should do their job.
Please only post if you have any constructive advice, rather than criticism.
Re: Passport challenges with patronymic name
Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:12 am
by joeano353
R-graphite wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:16 pm
Precisely
Casa wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:05 pm
joeano353 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:41 pm
Its about time you realise that HO or HMPO is not manned by fools. Everybody loves to dictate how HO should do their job. Strangely they are not even citizens yet but believe they know how the UK govt should do their job.
Please only post if you have any constructive advice, rather than criticism.
Smartie pants R-grahite do you feel you are exempt from Casa's recommendation? You seem to only talk gibberish. I can tell you dont even know what patronymic means!! You should skip topics that go over your head.
Re: Passport challenges with patronymic name
Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:16 am
by joeano353
Casa wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:05 pm
joeano353 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:41 pm
Its about time you realise that HO or HMPO is not manned by fools. Everybody loves to dictate how HO should do their job. Strangely they are not even citizens yet but believe they know how the UK govt should do their job.
Please only post if you have any constructive advice, rather than criticism.
I am in no position to challenge a moderator, but allowing people to bash HO or HMPO case workers seems to be silly. People here talk a lot about paying a lot of money for bad service, a confused lot of people working as case workers etc. etc. People are doing their job and there has never been proven allegations of corruption. Yet its tolerable when people say they know the ways HO should be run!!! I believe that for you is constructive suggesting.
Recently there was a post about a Hungarian-Chilean couple having an English name with 3 passports and all 3 countries have different systems. I guess some wise people here qualify to have a go at HO and insist their system is the best system.
Re: Passport challenges with patronymic name
Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:20 am
by R-graphite
Smartie pants? What sort of language is that. Anyway I won’t digress out of respect to the OP...
joeano353 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:12 am
R-graphite wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:16 pm
Precisely
Casa wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:05 pm
joeano353 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:41 pm
Its about time you realise that HO or HMPO is not manned by fools. Everybody loves to dictate how HO should do their job. Strangely they are not even citizens yet but believe they know how the UK govt should do their job.
Please only post if you have any constructive advice, rather than criticism.
Smartie pants R-grahite do you feel you are exempt from Casa's recommendation? You seem to only talk gibberish. I can tell you dont even know what patronymic means!! You should skip topics that go over your head.
Re: Passport challenges with patronymic name
Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:25 am
by joeano353
R-graphite wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:20 am
Smartie pants? What sort of language is that. Anyway I won’t digress out of respect to the OP...
joeano353 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:12 am
R-graphite wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:16 pm
Precisely
Casa wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:05 pm
Please only post if you have any constructive advice, rather than criticism.
Smartie pants R-grahite do you feel you are exempt from Casa's recommendation? You seem to only talk gibberish. I can tell you dont even know what patronymic means!! You should skip topics that go over your head.
It means you are overstepping your boundaries. You are not a moderator and you are just passing a comment that is not constructive. Just because you support the views of someone does not mean you should show how smart you are.
Re: Passport challenges with patronymic name
Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:42 am
by Casa
@joeano353 You have been asked politely more than once to desist from posting inflammatory comments.
If you want to continue to 'contribute' on this forum, I strongly suggest you limit your posts to useful advice.