Page 1 of 1
Old dependant application issues
Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:17 pm
by obormot
Dear all:
I will soon be applying for UK citizenship for my 75 years old mother.
(non-EU family member of EU citizen). She has PR from July 2018, and settled status, and she was in UK from July 2013.
1. Our main issue is that it seems she was abroad for a bit more then 450 or even 480 days (between 500 and 550 per my initial calculations - it is not easy, as there are not many stamps, and we misplaced her old passport, so I am going over all records)
In "naturalisation by discretion" booklet they state that they may grant citizenship, if applicant was in UK for at least 7 years, "with no substantial absences in first 2 years" and settled in UK with all ties (family, work, property, etc.)
Did anybody get citizenship under this provision?
Should we show "no substantial absences in first two years", or at least list all absences from 2013? What counts as "substantial"? She probably was away 3-4 months every year at the beginning, and then it was going down recently.
She is fully dependant on me, and lived with me as member of my household in UK from the beginning. I worked full time in UK all that time, I own a house, my kids were in UK school, and me and kids naturalised last December. I suppose it should be enough proof of her ties to UK (she has no relatives except me and my kids) - ?
Should we submit some documentation about me to prove her ties to UK? (My birth certificate? My employment letter? My and kids' naturalisation certificates? ..)
We can procure some documents showing that while abroad she experienced several accidents (for example, she broke some bones twice), which required her to stay away longer then planned. Could it be useful?
Waiting is not an option (I have a work secondment abroad about to start, and she needs to go with me, as she cannot live alone; after that she most probably would have too many days abroad for years before she can apply, we are at local minimum now)
2. I have very few documents to show for her physical presence in UK.
Apart from one year at a local college where she was learning english, and one attempt on pass theory driving test, it is only doctor letters. Would it be enough?
I understand bank statements or utility bills are no use, right?
Affidavits of friends? Anything else?
She also lost her previous passport, new one is from 2019. Could it be an issue?
Re: Old dependant application issues
Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:34 pm
by Zerubbabel
have a work secondment abroad about to start, and she needs to go with me, as she cannot live alone; after that she most probably would have too many days abroad for years before she can apply, we are at local minimum now
That can be an issue as the application has to have the project to live in the UK in order to apply for citizenship. If the project is to get the British then leave the UK, that can sometimes escalate.
Re: Old dependant application issues
Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:06 pm
by obormot
I am a university professor to be on sabbatical leave for a year or a bit longer (up to 2 - it is still being discussed, they might want me there for 2nd year - but not more then 2). It was agreed long ago that I would spend this year in a research lab abroad. My UK university employer continues to pay me, I am expected back, my house stays in UK, I do not sell it. My 18 years old son is going to a UK university this fall.
I am already UK citizen. We are not "leaving" UK, we go abroad on temporary work secondment, and my mother accompanies me (as she was doing for last 12 years or so..)
I can provide employer letters about it.
Re: Old dependant application issues
Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:07 am
by NikiGio
obormot wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:17 pm
Dear all:
I will soon be applying for UK citizenship for my 75 years old mother.
(non-EU family member of EU citizen). She has PR from July 2018, and settled status, and she was in UK from July 2013.
1. Our main issue is that it seems she was abroad for a bit more then 450 or even 480 days (between 500 and 550 per my initial calculations - it is not easy, as there are not many stamps, and we misplaced her old passport, so I am going over all records)
In "naturalisation by discretion" booklet they state that they may grant citizenship, if applicant was in UK for at least 7 years, "with no substantial absences in first 2 years" and settled in UK with all ties (family, work, property, etc.)
Did anybody get citizenship under this provision?
Should we show "no substantial absences in first two years", or at least list all absences from 2013? What counts as "substantial"? She probably was away 3-4 months every year at the beginning, and then it was going down recently.
She is fully dependant on me, and lived with me as member of my household in UK from the beginning. I worked full time in UK all that time, I own a house, my kids were in UK school, and me and kids naturalised last December. I suppose it should be enough proof of her ties to UK (she has no relatives except me and my kids) - ?
Should we submit some documentation about me to prove her ties to UK? (My birth certificate? My employment letter? My and kids' naturalisation certificates? ..)
We can procure some documents showing that while abroad she experienced several accidents (for example, she broke some bones twice), which required her to stay away longer then planned. Could it be useful?
Waiting is not an option (I have a work secondment abroad about to start, and she needs to go with me, as she cannot live alone; after that she most probably would have too many days abroad for years before she can apply, we are at local minimum now)
2. I have very few documents to show for her physical presence in UK.
Apart from one year at a local college where she was learning english, and one attempt on pass theory driving test, it is only doctor letters. Would it be enough?
I understand bank statements or utility bills are no use, right?
Affidavits of friends? Anything else?
She also lost her previous passport, new one is from 2019. Could it be an issue?
This situation is so similar to mine, Obormot. My Mum is 76 and I just posted about the case yesterday, as we submitted her AN application last Saturday and now we're gathering docs. I also have very few documents showing her physical presence in the UK - just bank and credit card statements.
1. Re the absences - have you tried the UKCEN forum lawyers? They can give you some very good advice on this for free.
2. I would include the college, driving test, doctor letters - already these sound like enough. But I would add bank statement and utility bills. I asked in the other forum, and they confirmed that I should send bank statements. All I have for my Mum as evidence are bank statements + credit card statements + council tax letters. She's not even registered with a GP or dentist, as she doesn't trust them
No, affidavits from friends wouldn't be useful.
Re the lost passport - I don't think that's an issue if she has a new one.
I think we had a similar discussion a couple of years ago when I was going through the PR application for my Mum. In the end, it was so complicated that she decided to give up and instead received Settled Status in Jan 2019. But now, it looks like we have to supply all the docs that would've been required for the PR application anyway, given she doesn't have CSI and has never had it. So I have to send in documents to either prove her dependency or her being a member of my household.
At least, that's my understanding so far.
Re: Old dependant application issues
Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:35 am
by obormot
Thanks!
Luckily, we did PR - because when 5 years of my mum were up the settlement scheme was not in place yet.
I will submit utility bills (we put her name on electricity bill), and bank statements (she has joint account with me). One per year?
She also has blue badge, I will submit a copy of that too.
I tried to ask on UKCEN about my own excess of absences last summer - they were not very helpful. I then submitted a long letter from my employer on necessary character of my trips, and I was approved in 2 months.
I also had a phone conversation with a couple of lawyers last fall about my mum situation.. The only thing we all agreed on was that we should wait for her being in UK for 7 years.
It seems lawyers do not want to discuss it, as they themselves have no clear understanding when HO would wave excess absences and when it would not..
So I am really looking for "anecdotic evidence"..
Re: Old dependant application issues
Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:04 am
by NikiGio
obormot wrote: ↑Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:35 am
I will submit utility bills (we put her name on electricity bill), and bank statements (she has joint account with me). One per year?
I'm submitting one every 3 months for her, if she has it. If not, try to see if you can submit 2/year.
Re: Old dependant application issues
Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:10 am
by obormot
Oh, I have them for every month from 2013 - but I remember seeing somewhere in immigration/naturalisation guides (probably for PR?) that one per year is OK.
Utility bills per se clearly do not show her physical presence. Bank statements might do, since they might show everyday transactions using her debit card number (I just co-own her account "in case" - to help as her english is bad - but I almost never use it).
Re: Old dependant application issues
Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:12 am
by NikiGio
It really sounds like you know more about me anyway, given you've already submitted your own application successfully
Re: Old dependant application issues
Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:17 am
by NikiGio
obormot wrote: ↑Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:17 pm
Should we submit some documentation about me to prove her ties to UK? (My birth certificate? My employment letter? My and kids' naturalisation certificates? ..)
We can procure some documents showing that while abroad she experienced several accidents (for example, she broke some bones twice), which required her to stay away longer then planned. Could it be useful?
Yes to the birth certificate + translation - as that's one of the ways you're proving that she's your Mum, and therefore that she has access to the Brit citizenship as she's the Mum and dependent/household member (both really) of a qualified citizen.
I would insert any information that helps paint the picture of the family situation and why she possibly has more absences than allowed. Your job in the UK is the reason, and there seems to be also good reasons why sometimes she's had to be abroad more than allowed by HO - her medical issues, etc. I guess the only difficulty with that is that it could cost you quite a bit in certified translations, unless you can get the justification docs in English.
Re: Old dependant application issues
Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:14 am
by NikiGio
obormot wrote: ↑Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:35 am
Thanks!
Luckily, we did PR - because when 5 years of my mum were up the settlement scheme was not in place yet.
I will submit utility bills (we put her name on electricity bill), and bank statements (she has joint account with me). One per year?
She also has blue badge, I will submit a copy of that too.
I tried to ask on UKCEN about my own excess of absences last summer - they were not very helpful. I then submitted a long letter from my employer on necessary character of my trips, and I was approved in 2 months.
I also had a phone conversation with a couple of lawyers last fall about my mum situation.. The only thing we all agreed on was that we should wait for her being in UK for 7 years.
It seems lawyers do not want to discuss it, as they themselves have no clear understanding when HO would wave excess absences and when it would not..
So I am really looking for "anecdotic evidence"..
Hey Obormot,
What happened with your Mum's AN application, in the end?
On 2/9, we got the e-mail stating that my Mum's application has been successful
Now just waiting for her to be allowed to have the ceremony, given Covid restrictions.
Thanks for your advice in the last couple of years, it was really helpful to us
Re: Old dependant application issues
Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:18 am
by obormot
Congratulations!
We applied for her in late August (28/08), did biometrics via the new app, and are waiting for the outcome now..
Re: Old dependant application issues
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:15 am
by NikiGio
obormot wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:18 am
Congratulations!
We applied for her in late August (28/08), did biometrics via the new app, and are waiting for the outcome now..
Thanks
I've just applied for my own naturalisation, sent the application in & paid two days ago. What's the new app? My Mum did the biometrics in person, during the appointment at UKVCAS...
Re: Old dependant application issues
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:10 pm
by obormot
In late August and September they introduced an app which one could use to upload passport, if one did biometrics before (my mother did in 2018, when she applied for PR - since she was non-EU citizen).
That way some people did not need to go to UKVCAS and it eased the post-lockdown backlog there.
This is similar to app used for Settled status.
Now they cleared the backlog and stopped offering people to use this app (except that they say students on Tier 4 will still have to use it). This makes us a bit worried whether the app was reliable enough, and whether thy might later end up calling on my mom to still do biometrics in person.
But so far we decided to just wait.
People who used app were reporting on this forum receiving approval email, so it seems the app works for at least some..
Re: Old dependant application issues
Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:15 am
by NikiGio
obormot wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:10 pm
In late August and September they introduced an app which one could use to upload passport, if one did biometrics before (my mother did in 2018, when she applied for PR - since she was non-EU citizen).
That way some people did not need to go to UKVCAS and it eased the post-lockdown backlog there.
This is similar to app used for Settled status.
Now they cleared the backlog and stopped offering people to use this app (except that they say students on Tier 4 will still have to use it). This makes us a bit worried whether the app was reliable enough, and whether thy might later end up calling on my mom to still do biometrics in person.
But so far we decided to just wait.
People who used app were reporting on this forum receiving approval email, so it seems the app works for at least some..
Hey Obormot - happy new year, despite the very weird times.
My Mum's now British, she had her ceremony last month
My AN application has also just been approved on 5/1
Waiting for the ceremony invitation.
Hope your Mum's AN application has proceeded ok?
Re: Old dependant application issues
Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:02 am
by obormot
Hi
We just got her approval for citizenship in the mail 2 days ago, on 14/01.
I am proud of myself - she had close to 600 days absences so I prepared a whole load of supporting documents - and it seems it worked (or they just decided to go easy on a 75 years old)
Glasgow city council is closed for ceremonies during lockdown, I could only book her for late march
Good luck!
Re: Old dependant application issues
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:13 am
by NikiGio
That's great news, Obormot - pleased for you & your Mum. You did really well! My Mum has already had her citizenship ceremony last month in London, so now looking to get her British passport done. Not crazy about having to send her EU passport off - we asked if a certified translation could do instead, but it doesn't seem to be the case, and the original passport + original ceremony certificate has to be sent off. She's concerned they might get lost/damaged in the post, given Covid chaos too - but it is what it is. I'm waiting for the letter inviting me to book the ceremony - might write an e-mail to ask current waiting times. There's no rush really. Then my sibling's going to the Biometrics appointment on Tuesday. The last one to sort would've been my Dad, but unfortunately he got stuck in South America this last year due to the pandemic, and we lost his 2 months ago. But happy that at least we can breathe a sigh of relief with regards to the 3 of us, and that we can vote in any upcoming general elections! We sure as heck need one
I don't know if we'll stay in the UK or not - we've been here on and off since the early '90s, but this last year has been very bizarre, what with the double-whammy of Brexit and Covid. We'll see what the future brings. For now, it's one step at a time. Best of luck to you & your family too!
Re: Old dependant application issues
Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:56 pm
by obormot
Sorry for your father. Mine passed away log ago..
Indeed, one has to send to PO originals of citizenship certificate and of all foreign passports.
I got caught in it during early stage of pandemic - sent it all out in early March 2020, and only received my documents back (and blue UK passport) in mid-July 2020. And this was after sending them (Passport Office) several emails, regular mails, twits, etc. and with official letter from my job that I am due to travel.
(We are now in-between UK and France, due to my job - incredibly complicated due to covid;
but my mom is in UK awaiting vaccination
and citizenship ceremony)
And they send citizenship certificate back in a standard flimsy envelope, so it can come back wrinkled at best and semi-destroyed at worst.. Some people on this forum were able to get free replacement after PO returned their certificate heavily damaged