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Tier1 Ent 5 yrs route to ILR Employment hours

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:34 am
by Ameten
Hello Gurus

I am due to submit my ILR application at the end of this month, and I am not very convinced the employment hours for the two staff are up to the required hours.
My solicitor said the hours meets the requirement but I feel I should double check with the house before applying. My Visa is still valid till October this year, I still have time for my employees to make more hours if the hours below doesn't meet the requirement.

April - 120
May - 120
June -120
July - 120
Aug - 142.5
Sep - 127.5
Oct - 135
Nov - 135
dec - 112.5
Jan - 135
Feb - 130
March 135

Both employees did the same hours as shown above.
Thanks for your anticipated response

Re: Tier1 Ent 5 yrs route to ILR Employment hours

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:01 pm
by 10020132
Any hours below 130/ months will be counted as 60 (part time) and anything above 130/month will be counted as 130 only (full time)

So based on this, you only have 6 months of full time employment and 6 months of part time employment

Re: Tier1 Ent 5 yrs route to ILR Employment hours

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:35 pm
by raj.m
Ameten wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:34 am
Hello Gurus

I am due to submit my ILR application at the end of this month, and I am not very convinced the employment hours for the two staff are up to the required hours.
My solicitor said the hours meets the requirement but I feel I should double check with the house before applying. My Visa is still valid till October this year, I still have time for my employees to make more hours if the hours below doesn't meet the requirement.

April - 120
May - 120
June -120
July - 120
Aug - 142.5
Sep - 127.5
Oct - 135
Nov - 135
dec - 112.5
Jan - 135
Feb - 130
March 135

Both employees did the same hours as shown above.
Thanks for your anticipated response
What I understand from your post you've got two employees doing the same hours at the same time as you mentioned above. For example - when you say you had 120 hours in April, you mean 120 hours for each employee, which makes it 240 hours for April in total, right? Going with this assumption and also assuming that transitional arrangements apply to you, here is the clarification:


April - 120 x 2 employees - this will count as one full time employment for 1 month
May - 120 x 2 employees - this will count as one full time employment for 1 month
June -120 x 2 employees - this will count as one full time employment for 1 month
July - 120 x 2 employees - this will count as one full time employment for 1 month
Aug - 142.5 x 2 employees - this will count as two full time employments for 1 month
Sep - 127.5 x 2 employees - this will count as one full time employment for 1 month
Oct - 135 x 2 employees - this will count as two full time employments for 1 month
Nov - 135 x 2 employees - this will count as two full time employments for 1 month
dec - 112.5 x 2 employees - this will count as one full time employment for 1 month
Jan - 135 x 2 employees - this will count as two full time employments for 1 month
Feb - 130 x 2 employees - this will count as two full time employments for 1 month
March 135 x 2 employees - this will count as two full time employments for 1 month

This combination will give you equivalent of 18 months of full time employment in total. You need 24 months of employment. So, you will be short of 6 months full time employment or equivalent.

Now there are a number of factors to consider.

1) this combination and calculation only works for you if transitional arrangements apply to you.
2) the month when you had 130 hours for each employee, I am counting that as two full time employments on the assumption that HO will consider 52 weeks in a year and NOT 52.143 weeks in a year. If they do the calculations with 52.143 weeks, this will count as only one month of full time employment.
3) if any of your documents have a WEEKLY account of your employees' hours, those hours will need to be same every week. The requirement is to have a minimum of 30 hours per week. For example - if the combined hours of both your employees is 25 hours in week 1 of the month and 35 hours in week 2 of the month, this won't be accepted. But remember this will only matter if any of your documents have a weekly breakdown and if your hours are uneven.

The basis of my calculations:

There are 52 weeks in a year and HO's requirement is to have 30 hours per week per job for 12 months or equivalent, which means you need a total of 30 hours × 52 weeks x 2 jobs = 3120 hours in total. Now in any given month, you would need a minimum of 130 hours (30 hours x 52 weeks / 12 months) for it to be counted as one month's full time employment.

But your hours are monthly. So for example, in the month when you have 120 hours per employee i.e. you have 240 hours, the calculation would be 240 hours x 12 months / 52 weeks which is equal to 55.38 hours per week...now in this case, this will be counted as one full time employment for one month. All the hours additional to your 30 hours will be ignored.

I hope I'm making sense

Re: Tier1 Ent 5 yrs route to ILR Employment hours

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:50 pm
by Ameten
raj.m wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:35 pm
Ameten wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:34 am
Hello Gurus

I am due to submit my ILR application at the end of this month, and I am not very convinced the employment hours for the two staff are up to the required hours.
My solicitor said the hours meets the requirement but I feel I should double check with the house before applying. My Visa is still valid till October this year, I still have time for my employees to make more hours if the hours below doesn't meet the requirement.

April - 120
May - 120
June -120
July - 120
Aug - 142.5
Sep - 127.5
Oct - 135
Nov - 135
dec - 112.5
Jan - 135
Feb - 130
March 135

Both employees did the same hours as shown above.
Thanks for your anticipated response
What I understand from your post you've got two employees doing the same hours at the same time as you mentioned above. For example - when you say you had 120 hours in April, you mean 120 hours for each employee, which makes it 240 hours for April in total, right? Going with this assumption and also assuming that transitional arrangements apply to you, here is the clarification:


April - 120 x 2 employees - this will count as one full time employment for 1 month
May - 120 x 2 employees - this will count as one full time employment for 1 month
June -120 x 2 employees - this will count as one full time employment for 1 month
July - 120 x 2 employees - this will count as one full time employment for 1 month
Aug - 142.5 x 2 employees - this will count as two full time employments for 1 month
Sep - 127.5 x 2 employees - this will count as one full time employment for 1 month
Oct - 135 x 2 employees - this will count as two full time employments for 1 month
Nov - 135 x 2 employees - this will count as two full time employments for 1 month
dec - 112.5 x 2 employees - this will count as one full time employment for 1 month
Jan - 135 x 2 employees - this will count as two full time employments for 1 month
Feb - 130 x 2 employees - this will count as two full time employments for 1 month
March 135 x 2 employees - this will count as two full time employments for 1 month

This combination will give you equivalent of 18 months of full time employment in total. You need 24 months of employment. So, you will be short of 6 months full time employment or equivalent.

Now there are a number of factors to consider.

1) this combination and calculation only works for you if transitional arrangements apply to you.
2) the month when you had 130 hours for each employee, I am counting that as two full time employments on the assumption that HO will consider 52 weeks in a year and NOT 52.143 weeks in a year. If they do the calculations with 52.143 weeks, this will count as only one month of full time employment.
3) if any of your documents have a WEEKLY account of your employees' hours, those hours will need to be same every week. The requirement is to have a minimum of 30 hours per week. For example - if the combined hours of both your employees is 25 hours in week 1 of the month and 35 hours in week 2 of the month, this won't be accepted. But remember this will only matter if any of your documents have a weekly breakdown and if your hours are uneven.

The basis of my calculations:

There are 52 weeks in a year and HO's requirement is to have 30 hours per week per job for 12 months or equivalent, which means you need a total of 30 hours × 52 weeks x 2 jobs = 3120 hours in total. Now in any given month, you would need a minimum of 130 hours (30 hours x 52 weeks / 12 months) for it to be counted as one month's full time employment.

But your hours are monthly. So for example, in the month when you have 120 hours per employee i.e. you have 240 hours, the calculation would be 240 hours x 12 months / 52 weeks which is equal to 55.38 hours per week...now in this case, this will be counted as one full time employment for one month. All the hours additional to your 30 hours will be ignored.

I hope I'm making sense
Thanks for your detailed explanation, really appreciate

Re: Tier1 Ent 5 yrs route to ILR Employment hours

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:52 pm
by Ameten
10020132 wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:01 pm
Any hours below 130/ months will be counted as 60 (part time) and anything above 130/month will be counted as 130 only (full time)

So based on this, you only have 6 months of full time employment and 6 months of part time employment
Thanks

Re: Tier1 Ent 5 yrs route to ILR Employment hours

Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:40 pm
by memoa
10020132 wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:01 pm
Any hours below 130/ months will be counted as 60 (part time) and anything above 130/month will be counted as 130 only (full time)

So based on this, you only have 6 months of full time employment and 6 months of part time employment
Hi,
I am not sure why 120h will be counted as 60h or part-time?! as you may know, there are some moths with 4 weeks and some others with 5 weeks payment. So it might not be counted as full time in those months with five weeks because the payment will be with 30x5 =150h but it will be fine for the months with 4 weeks, that is my understanding to the case

Please, could you clarify that to me?

Regards

Re: Tier1 Ent 5 yrs route to ILR Employment hours

Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:52 pm
by raj.m
memoa wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:40 pm
10020132 wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:01 pm
Any hours below 130/ months will be counted as 60 (part time) and anything above 130/month will be counted as 130 only (full time)

So based on this, you only have 6 months of full time employment and 6 months of part time employment
Hi,
I am not sure why 120h will be counted as 60h or part-time?! as you may know, there are some moths with 4 weeks and some others with 5 weeks payment. So it might not be counted as full time in those months with five weeks because the payment will be with 30x5 =150h but it will be fine for the months with 4 weeks, that is my understanding to the case

Please, could you clarify that to me?

Regards
In that case, you will have to send them documents with weekly breakdown which clearly shows you have 30 hours or more every week. Generally, the documents show monthly figures. So the way it works is - if you have 120 hours in a month, you times that by 12, which gives you 1440 and then you divide 1440 by 52 weeks, which will give you 27.69 hours per week, which is counted as part-time.

Re: Tier1 Ent 5 yrs route to ILR Employment hours

Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:18 pm
by memoa
raj.m wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:52 pm
memoa wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:40 pm
10020132 wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:01 pm
Any hours below 130/ months will be counted as 60 (part time) and anything above 130/month will be counted as 130 only (full time)

So based on this, you only have 6 months of full time employment and 6 months of part time employment
Hi,
I am not sure why 120h will be counted as 60h or part-time?! as you may know, there are some moths with 4 weeks and some others with 5 weeks payment. So it might not be counted as full time in those months with five weeks because the payment will be with 30x5 =150h but it will be fine for the months with 4 weeks, that is my understanding to the case

Please, could you clarify that to me?

Regards
In that case, you will have to send them documents with weekly breakdown which clearly shows you have 30 hours or more every week. Generally, the documents show monthly figures. So the way it works is - if you have 120 hours in a month, you times that by 12, which gives you 1440 and then you divide 1440 by 52 weeks, which will give you 27.69 hours per week, which is counted as part-time.

Hi,

Thanks for your quick reply,

if you want to do it in the weeks so the moths with 120h will be fine ( this is my opinion only) if the month is 4 weeks.because there are only 4 months in the year which got 5 weeks, so if you pay the 120h in this month which is weeks, will be 1 week in the month which is 30h missing and in total, you will be missing 4 weeks in the year 4months X 1 week = 4 weeks missing.

So as I understand if your visa is before April 2014 you could only employ another FT job for 1 month to meet 12 months or 52 weeks full-time job if you paying 120h a month in all months for the first job.

FT job with 120h ==== 1440 +120h ( for the missing weeks) = 1560h that means you need 13 payslip
for each FT job. and that applies even for the 2nd FT Job.

That is my understanding of the job creation, I will be appreciated if anyone could clarify it more

Regards,

Re: Tier1 Ent 5 yrs route to ILR Employment hours

Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:11 pm
by marcnath
memoa wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:18 pm


Hi,

Thanks for your quick reply,

if you want to do it in the weeks so the moths with 120h will be fine ( this is my opinion only) if the month is 4 weeks.because there are only 4 months in the year which got 5 weeks, so if you pay the 120h in this month which is weeks, will be 1 week in the month which is 30h missing and in total, you will be missing 4 weeks in the year 4months X 1 week = 4 weeks missing.

So as I understand if your visa is before April 2014 you could only employ another FT job for 1 month to meet 12 months or 52 weeks full-time job if you paying 120h a month in all months for the first job.

FT job with 120h ==== 1440 +120h ( for the missing weeks) = 1560h that means you need 13 payslip
for each FT job. and that applies even for the 2nd FT Job.

That is my understanding of the job creation, I will be appreciated if anyone could clarify it more

Regards,
There is only one week in the year that has 4 week - that is February.
Every other month has either 4 weeks and 2 days or 4 weeks and 3 days.
Now, if you employ someone to work only 28 days every month, then yes, 120 hrs can be counted as a FT.
Remember that the immigration rules only specify 30 hrs/week. So, if you have an employee who works 120 hrs in a month that has 30 days, he/she cannot meet the 30 hrs/week.
Having said that, there is some good news.
Recently, on this forum, a refusal based on 120 hrs/month was overturned in an AR. They accepted the argument that the guidance says 120 hrs/month is full time, even if the immigration rules only specify 30 hrs/week.
I expect the guidance to be corrected for that mistake, but until it is corrected, you will also possibly succeed in any potential AR.

Re: Tier1 Ent 5 yrs route to ILR Employment hours

Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:52 pm
by memoa
Hi marcnath,

Thanks for your reply,

Everyone looks different to the hour's calculation and I believe it also depends on when is the payment made to your employee. Because the timesheet of the payment could start in 1st of the month and in other months could start in the 29th of the previous month.

giving an example of the payment,

Jan 2018 the timesheet of the payment starts from 1st of Jan on Monday until the last Friday of the month which is 26th of Jan ( 4 weeks ). 120 hrs

Feb 2018 the timesheet of the payment starts from the 29th of Jan on Monday until the last Friday of the month 23rd of Feb. ( 4 weeks ). 120 hrs

Mar 2018 the timesheet of the payment starts from 26th of Feb on Monday until the last Friday of the month 30tn of Mar ( 5 weeks). 150 hrs

That is my understanding of the payment, the hours' calculation, and that is what I have done in my 1st extension.

Regards,

Re: Tier1 Ent 5 yrs route to ILR Employment hours

Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:18 pm
by marcnath
memoa wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:52 pm
Hi marcnath,

Thanks for your reply,

Everyone looks different to the hour's calculation and I believe it also depends on when is the payment made to your employee. Because the timesheet of the payment could start in 1st of the month and in other months could start in the 29th of the previous month.

giving an example of the payment,

Jan 2018 the timesheet of the payment starts from 1st of Jan on Monday until the last Friday of the month which is 26th of Jan ( 4 weeks ). 120 hrs

Feb 2018 the timesheet of the payment starts from the 29th of Jan on Monday until the last Friday of the month 23rd of Feb. ( 4 weeks ). 120 hrs

Mar 2018 the timesheet of the payment starts from 26th of Feb on Monday until the last Friday of the month 30tn of Mar ( 5 weeks). 150 hrs

That is my understanding of the payment, the hours' calculation, and that is what I have done in my 1st extension.

Regards,
As I have repeatedly said, the only calculation that matters is 30 hrs/week, which is what is specified in the immigration rules.

The 120/130 hours/month discussion is only relevant when the monthly salary is fixed, which is not your case.

Re: Tier1 Ent 5 yrs route to ILR Employment hours

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:42 am
by fzp83
To continue with the latest post:

Just to clarify, in case where the monthly salary is fixed would it be ok to provide the hourly rate calculated on the basis of minimum 30 hours worked per week?

I ask this because in case of fixed salary the hours worked can flactuate between 30-37.5 and it will not be easy to calculate the hourly rate.

Thanks

Re: Tier1 Ent 5 yrs route to ILR Employment hours

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:58 pm
by marcnath
fzp83 wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:42 am
To continue with the latest post:

Just to clarify, in case where the monthly salary is fixed would it be ok to provide the hourly rate calculated on the basis of minimum 30 hours worked per week?

I ask this because in case of fixed salary the hours worked can flactuate between 30-37.5 and it will not be easy to calculate the hourly rate.

Thanks
Yes, you are free to define the hourly rate. But wouldn't you define it based on the max number of hours worked ? https://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/ is a good site to convert salary rates