Romanian Marrying a Syirian citizen in RO or the UK

[Epsilonn]

Her religion is 'Zoroastrianism'. Does this make any difference?

It may not help if her religion is recorded as Moslem on her birth certificate. According to this document about religious issues in Syria from the US State Department web site:

For issues of personal status, the government requires its citizens to be affiliated nominally with Christianity, Judaism, or Islam. Religious affiliation is documented on the birth certificate and is required on legal documentation when marrying or traveling for a religious pilgrimage.

Unfortunately, I cannot find a context for the document, so I don't know how reliable it should be. Inshallah, you'll marry in Romania and it won't be an issue. It would be likely to be a problem if you were considering resorting to marriage in Malaysia (another visa-free country for Syrians).

So, basically, let's say I marry in Tanzania to get a marriage certificate... would religion play a part??? We wouldn't get married in a church, would we? I am new to this religion related topic so what would you suggest? Basically, would the marriage certificate be influenced by our beliefs, let's say, in Tanzania???

[wegiwegi]

The refusal was in April 2013, so after that decided to change my approach, and after we decided to get married, so from the rejection to the marriage was 1 year and 4 months.

I didn't deal with UK at all, all was through my Embassy here and my Embassy in her country, and the authorities in the city we married.
What was asked? The usual papers, birth certificates, passports, bank statements, proof of residence, papers showing no impediment for marriage, for both, invitation letters, hotel reservation, all this for the Schengen visa, just formalities, pay the fees, and there you go.

Seems complicated, but step by step, you get there.

UK may think is a marriage of convenience, but they have to prove it, the burden is on them, not you . In this case is your country's authorities you have to convince, once you have a marriage certificate, get it apostilled, and get back to the UK with your wife.

About treaty rights, you show them you are working, work contract, pay slips, bank statements showing that wages going into the account, and that's all is needed.

I got to the UK in August 1995, 22 years and counting and even I have to show them loads of paperwork to get PR.

[Richard W]

So, basically, let's say I marry in Tanzania to get a marriage certificate... would religion play a part??? We wouldn't get married in a church, would we? I am new to this religion related topic so what would you suggest? Basically, would the marriage certificate be influenced by our beliefs, let's say, in Tanzania???

It's a majority Christian country with civil registry available. (Well, on the mainland.) You might be able to get married in a church, though that would take more organising. It seems that formally there's no residence requirement, but the 21 days notice could be awkward. The standard solution appears to be to get a special licence. Gathering the legal documents seems the most awkward part.

[tmonaghan]

I see you guys have been busy. I won't say a thing anymore. Epsilonn, please keep us updated with your progress with your situation as it raised many issues and responses. If you succeed with bringing your fiancé from Syria; you'll have to find a way to make it possible for me to send you a bottle of Veuve clicquot brut Champagne to celebrate your victory with your Partner. Kind regards, Trevor

[tmonaghan]

Epsilonn, I meant bring her back to the UK to settle with you here.

[ribena]

Her religion is 'Zoroastrianism'. Does this make any difference?

It may not help if her religion is recorded as Moslem on her birth certificate. According to this document about religious issues in Syria from the US State Department web site:

For issues of personal status, the government requires its citizens to be affiliated nominally with Christianity, Judaism, or Islam. Religious affiliation is documented on the birth certificate and is required on legal documentation when marrying or traveling for a religious pilgrimage.

Unfortunately, I cannot find a context for the document, so I don't know how reliable it should be. Inshallah, you'll marry in Romania and it won't be an issue. It would be likely to be a problem if you were considering resorting to marriage in Malaysia (another visa-free country for Syrians).

I wouldn't bother with Malaysia. I very much doubt they (govt) will marry a non-muslim and a muslim. But that's for Malaysian citizen. I think the law will pretty much apply to foreigners... if you wish to find out more - check with Malaysian Embassy in London. They are helpful.

[Richard W]

It seems I'm behind the times on when people are formally married for the purposes of the EEA Regulations. Back in March it was ruled that the relevant law is that of the host country, not that of the EEA national's. On the other hand, I'm not at all sure that the domicile of the EEA national is irrelevant. The case law is Awuku v Secretary of State for the Home Department [2017] EWCA Civ 178 (23 March 2017). The thread on the matter is pinned on this forum - Kareem overturned proxy marriage recognised.

When a marriage is to be ignored as an abuse of rights is yet another issue - that may well come within the competence of the EUCJ. Otherwise, the foregone concession negotiated by Cameron and reversing (and more) the Metock judgement for spouses could be unilaterally adopted by the UK, rather than the apparent subterfuge of taking a long and possibly increasing time to decide family permit applications. (The Home Office can hide behind the maxim that one should not ascribe to malice that which may simply be due to incompetence.)

[Epsilonn]

Well that is new. I heard of proxy marriages... I am tempted to ask now that we got so far with this thread. How would a marriage by proxy look in case I want to bring my 'now girlfrien' in RO as my wife?

I don't think that is going to work with the UK but can you share you opinion please on proxy marriage in my case?

[Epsilonn]

Anyone please share your opinion on this as I am narrowing my options. We have a clean application for her to visit me in Romania.

She has a job in Syria as a teacher. Do you think I should add a signed statement from her boss regarding her working there? I could invite her there up to 90 days. Should I invite her there for as long as the visa allows her? 90 days? How to do this in order to look good in the eyes of the Immigration Officer?

I don't want the Immigration Office in Romania thinking she might claim asylum after the visit when all I want to do is to show I can provide everything for her there.

In the meantime, while she is there, I want to marry her and do all paperwork for her to be able to stay there.

But first I want to get her in Romania on a normal visit visa and show that everything about her coming there is clear and clean and I want to meet her there after we saw each other in Beirut etc...

I know Romania is not afraid of potential refugees as the UK is so what advice do you have for me on this matter?

Also what do you think of a study visa there? Or applying for a study visa elsewhere in the EU. I read of another Syrian person that was not accepted to study to the UK because he was coming from Syria and he could have claimed asylum after the duration of visa (6 months); this, in the opinion of the case worker. But he had bank statements and money etc... Eventually, Germany allowed him to go there... and there other cases like this... what do you think of this; based on your experience?

[wegiwegi]

Well that is new. I heard of proxy marriages... I am tempted to ask now that we got so far with this thread. How would a marriage by proxy look in case I want to bring my 'now girlfrien' in RO as my wife?

I don't think that is going to work with the UK but can you share you opinion please on proxy marriage in my case?

Four member states do not recognise proxy marriage certificates in any circumstances (AT, BG, LU, RO).
The four Member States who did not recognise proxy marriage certificates in any circumstances, indicated that proxy marriages were not accepted in their national legislation.
• Austria, Bulgaria and Romania indicated it was against the principles of marriage in their Member State whereby consent must be given freely in front of witnesses.
Sweden and Norway also indicated that the general rule disallowing proxy marriages was in their national legislation.

I think this answers that question

About your other questions, if you read the whole of the thread, you have been given all the options already asked. Make up your mind, and good luck.

[Richard W]

She has a job in Syria as a teacher. Do you think I should add a signed statement from her boss regarding her working there? I could invite her there up to 90 days. Should I invite her there for as long as the visa allows her? 90 days? How to do this in order to look good in the eyes of the Immigration Officer?

But first I want to get her in Romania on a normal visit visa and show that everything about her coming there is clear and clean and I want to meet her there after we saw each other in Beirut etc...

I'm confused about the plan Romania plays in all this. Are you planning a temporary stage where her home is in Romania but your home is in the UK? I would have thought that suspicious minds would worry about trafficking at this point (and I exclude acquiring a wife from the notion of trafficking). This doesn't sound like Wegiwegi's route, which may be better tailored to a visa regime closer to Schengen.

Also what do you think of a study visa there? Or applying for a study visa elsewhere in the EU.

That feels fraudulent to me, and therefore best avoided.

I don't like the practice of proxy marriages. It sounds as though, if you are domiciled in Romania, which I think you are, they are simply not an option for you.

[tmonaghan]

I said if because they have a better chance to make it in Romania... If she enters Romania as a Visitor ask her not to bring in her luggages compromising documents that may be deemed suspicious by the Border Control, such as Curriculum vitae, University Degrees, diplomats and professional references. She can always have that sent from Syria once in Romania. Just a thought...

[tmonaghan]

I TOLD YOU ALL FROM THE BEGINNING OF THIS THREAD THAT SYRIA IS BLACK LISTED BY THE HOME OFFICE. An article from the Guardian Newspaper from today.

Eurovision-winning Austrian drag queen was due to perform at festival but band members, who are from Syria, denied visas.

Eurovision song contest winner Conchita Wurst has cancelled her performance at the Edinburgh festival after her band members were denied visas.

The Austrian drag queen had been due to perform at the Friday night showing of New European Songbook alongside her Syrian ensemble, Basalt, who are based in Vienna.

But despite a supporting statement from the festival, each of the three Basalt members were unsuccessful with their visa applications. As a result, Wurst pulled out of the concert entirely, though it will still go ahead with the remaining acts.

A statement from the festival said: “We are very disappointed to announce that the Syrian artists were unsuccessful in their application for visas to perform live at the concert.

“The concert will go ahead with a specially recorded introduction by Conchita and Basalt and a film of their performance.

“The international festival has issued an open invitation to Conchita and Basalt to perform later at this year’s festival. If this is not possible, the invitation will be extended to the 2018 international festival.”

The festival is on the Home Office list of permit-free festivals, which allows artists who need a visa to enter the country to apply for a standard visitor’s visarather than a working visa.

Basalt applied to enter the UK on this basis but were unsuccessful. They are a Syrian trio who formed in 2016 in Austria. They perform a mix of styles including alternative, blues and rock.

The New European Songbook presents new music from across the continent in two wide-ranging concerts. Each night sees a selection of musicians come together to perform new pieces of music for the first time. Musicians from across Europe share the stage with others who have recently made Europe their home.

[Epsilonn]

She has a job in Syria as a teacher. Do you think I should add a signed statement from her boss regarding her working there? I could invite her there up to 90 days. Should I invite her there for as long as the visa allows her? 90 days? How to do this in order to look good in the eyes of the Immigration Officer?

But first I want to get her in Romania on a normal visit visa and show that everything about her coming there is clear and clean and I want to meet her there after we saw each other in Beirut etc...

I'm confused about the plan Romania plays in all this. Are you planning a temporary stage where her home is in Romania but your home is in the UK? I would have thought that suspicious minds would worry about trafficking at this point (and I exclude acquiring a wife from the notion of trafficking). This doesn't sound like Wegiwegi's route, which may be better tailored to a visa regime closer to Schengen.

Also what do you think of a study visa there? Or applying for a study visa elsewhere in the EU.

That feels fraudulent to me, and therefore best avoided.

I don't like the practice of proxy marriages. It sounds as though, if you are domiciled in Romania, which I think you are, they are simply not an option for you.

Richard, I am confused now. What do you mean by a visa regime closer to Schengen? Romania is my home country and I invite her there as a simple visitor provided she will meet my family etc... What is wrong in that?
Also why would a study visa anywhere be fraudulent??? It is a study visa... I want to get her out of there somehow...

[Epsilonn]

I said if because they have a better chance to make it in Romania... If she enters Romania as a Visitor ask her not to bring in her luggages compromising documents that may be deemed suspicious by the Border Control, such as Curriculum vitae, University Degrees, diplomats and professional references. She can always have that sent from Syria once in Romania. Just a thought...

Trevor, I am confused here as well. I want to show CVs, her letter of employment, pictures with family and home because, I am going to be honest, I saw my girlfriend after so long becuse her family did not let her come to me!! She cannot possibly want to become a refugee in Romania, for instance, after her visit. I want to show CVs of us and what we do and make Romania understand she can go back to Syria after her visit because she has ties there, the way that country is. She would rather stay in Syria that be a refugee in Romania. Romania is not the UK and Romania is my home country. No one wants to be a refugee there. And not her, with her current status. I read things online about Syrian refugees in Romania and they actually prefer they were in Syria rather than Romania.

I need to show people she can go back easily. We found a safe route for her to get from Aleppo to Beirut and it took us and her family a lot of time and nerves to actually see each other for the first time in Beirut.

So why is showing CVs and degrees a bad idea? She does not even speak Romanian! She only depends on me there. I will also show proof of money I sent to Syria to make people understand he relies on me. Do you think this is a bad idea as I am not sure of anything anymore.

I will also show plane tickets reservations for her and myself and I was told by the Immigrations Office from Romania that adding these and the CVs + pictures etc. would strenghten our application.

But I know I will find a way. I need your input for this message please.

[Epsilonn]

She has a job in Syria as a teacher. Do you think I should add a signed statement from her boss regarding her working there? I could invite her there up to 90 days. Should I invite her there for as long as the visa allows her? 90 days? How to do this in order to look good in the eyes of the Immigration Officer?

But first I want to get her in Romania on a normal visit visa and show that everything about her coming there is clear and clean and I want to meet her there after we saw each other in Beirut etc...

I'm confused about the plan Romania plays in all this. Are you planning a temporary stage where her home is in Romania but your home is in the UK? I would have thought that suspicious minds would worry about trafficking at this point (and I exclude acquiring a wife from the notion of trafficking). This doesn't sound like Wegiwegi's route, which may be better tailored to a visa regime closer to Schengen.

Also what do you think of a study visa there? Or applying for a study visa elsewhere in the EU.

That feels fraudulent to me, and therefore best avoided.

I don't like the practice of proxy marriages. It sounds as though, if you are domiciled in Romania, which I think you are, they are simply not an option for you.

Richard, I am confused now. What do you mean by a visa regime closer to Schengen? Romania is my home country and I invite her there as a simple visitor provided she will meet my family etc... What is wrong in that?
Also why would a study visa anywhere be fraudulent??? It is a study visa... I want to get her out of there somehow...

Also, I did not add, why would me working in the UK and her coming there be suspicious. My dad from RO is going to make the invitation. I can take holiday and I can also work from home as I am a design engineer and, if required, I can go and stay with her in RO for the duration of the visa and work as well. I worked from home when I was living in London. Everything is plausible and I need her in a visit visa to meet my family. Why would this be suspicious?

[Epsilonn]

I TOLD YOU ALL FROM THE BEGINNING OF THIS THREAD THAT SYRIA IS BLACK LISTED BY THE HOME OFFICE. An article from the Guardian Newspaper from today.

Eurovision-winning Austrian drag queen was due to perform at festival but band members, who are from Syria, denied visas.

Eurovision song contest winner Conchita Wurst has cancelled her performance at the Edinburgh festival after her band members were denied visas.

The Austrian drag queen had been due to perform at the Friday night showing of New European Songbook alongside her Syrian ensemble, Basalt, who are based in Vienna.

But despite a supporting statement from the festival, each of the three Basalt members were unsuccessful with their visa applications. As a result, Wurst pulled out of the concert entirely, though it will still go ahead with the remaining acts.

A statement from the festival said: “We are very disappointed to announce that the Syrian artists were unsuccessful in their application for visas to perform live at the concert.

“The concert will go ahead with a specially recorded introduction by Conchita and Basalt and a film of their performance.

“The international festival has issued an open invitation to Conchita and Basalt to perform later at this year’s festival. If this is not possible, the invitation will be extended to the 2018 international festival.”

The festival is on the Home Office list of permit-free festivals, which allows artists who need a visa to enter the country to apply for a standard visitor’s visarather than a working visa.

Basalt applied to enter the UK on this basis but were unsuccessful. They are a Syrian trio who formed in 2016 in Austria. They perform a mix of styles including alternative, blues and rock.

The New European Songbook presents new music from across the continent in two wide-ranging concerts. Each night sees a selection of musicians come together to perform new pieces of music for the first time. Musicians from across Europe share the stage with others who have recently made Europe their home.

Trevor, but what was the reason for this to happen? Claiming asylum or what? Also this is Austria, not Romania. Do you think this could have happened with Romania as well?

[Epsilonn]

Trevor, I also read about an Immigrant from Syria who went visiting his uncle in Romania and remained as a refugee, just like that. His uncle is Syrian yes, but he got to Romania eventually, and this was in 2015!

Because I only understand that there is no actual HOPE to get someone from Syria anywhere in the EU at the moment? They are blacklisted yes, but are they banned or what? They have the right to visit people etc... I need someone to tell me that, at least, there is a shred of hope in what I am trying to achieve!

[Epsilonn]

Trevor, I also read about an Immigrant from Syria who went visiting his uncle in Romania and remained as a refugee, just like that. His uncle is Syrian yes, but he got to Romania eventually, and this was in 2015!

Because I only understand that there is no actual HOPE in getting someone from Syria anywhere in the EU at the moment? They are blacklisted yes, but are they banned or what? They have the right to visit people etc... I need someone to tell me that, at least, there is a shred of hope in what I am trying to achieve!

[Epsilonn]

And I was told from Romania to place additional documents such as CVs in both Romanian and English for both of us together with the application...

[tmonaghan]

Epsilonn,
I pulled out from this Thread a while back because I disagreed with some Forum Members giving you Legal Advice to help you to circonvent Immigration Laws to bring into Europe a NON-EU Citizen. Who would have not had a single chance to make it from Syria to the UK to settle with you. Someone that you met for a week in Beirut because you would have never met in Syria for the reason that her Country is at war and its people fleeing Syria by millions to migrate to Europe. Your online girlfriend had her UK Visitor Visa refused on the basis that then, you had never met her; but also because she is from Syria.

As a British Citizen myself; the UK is my Country but I am also a European therefore still providing your unbiased advice. I told you several times that you would probably have more chances to bring her into Romania. However, this Forum is probably not the right place to ask about Romanian Immigration Laws and you were advised to contact your local Consulate in the UK or contacting Authorities in Romania to know what can you do to bring her in.

The three Syrian musicians based in Austria were meant to accompany the Eurovision song contest winner Conchita Wurst. However, her Musicians were denied Visitor Visas because they are Syrians in spite of the fact that they are Austrian residents. Syria is on the Black List at the UK Home Office because it is not in the interest of the United Kingdom to grant them Visas because of the high risk they pause. Such as granting them Asylum.

You want me to be honest with you? Dump your Internet Syrian girlfriend that you met for a week over the course of a little more than a year. She has luggages and will only bring you trouble because she will be seen as someone who entered into a Marriage of Convenience to enter unlawfully Europe. You could be at risk of loosing your present situation and you have so much to loose. Romania will certainly follow the UK over the treatment of Syrians. You have been living in the UK and indicated that you have a good job and the means to live in the UK comfortably.

So, dump her and continue dating online but this time to meet another girlfriend already living in Europe lawfully although someone from the UK would be ideal.

You were asked to read back the information already provided on this Thread to help you to decide what course of action you can take. If you leave the UK to settle back in Romania, you run the risk of not being able to return post Brexit.

Epsilonn, I will not acknowledge anymore your questions that have already been covered. Read through the information from this Thread to understand what to do. For god sake aren't there enough single ladies in the UK???

Good luck, Trevor

[Epsilonn]

Trevor, really, this is not possible. The heart does what the heart wants. Short story, in one year we learnt everything about each other, from videos, phone conversations, texting all day and finally seeing each other in Beirut where, in that short time, we both felt peace just by being together... I was breaking up with my secong girlfriend, from London..., both of them Romanians...

I am not an online dating hunter and I cannot do that as it would simply make me feel miserable. One way or another, she will be with me. Right now I am learning of the best way. I am not in any rush whatsoever.

But one thing I did not understand from you... what was that about not adding the CVs + letter of employment in her application? Why would those be a problem?

[tmonaghan]

Ok, If she is going to travel from Syria to Romania on a Visit Visa; make sure that the documents that she will have in heir luggages don't hold any prejudicial documents. That may lead the Border Control to believe that she will be staying in Romania for more than six months; therefore as an Over-stayer. If she is going to come from Syria to marry you; she would then require a Fiance Visa that would allow her to marry you in Romania. If the documents held in her baggages indicate that she may try to enter Romania for the purpose of settling down while on a Visit Visa; she may be denied entry to Romania and sent back to Syria on the next available flight. Make sure that when you apply for a Visa for your girlfriend it has to be in accordance to her visit to Romania. However your Romanian Consulate should advise you about the particular Visa she will need to make sure she is lawfully entering Romania with the right Visa. Professional documentations can always be sent later to Romania by her family if she was given the right to work in Romania. Have you thought about the likeliness that she may never be able to find work in Romania because she does not speak Romanian? I know that several companies have settled into Romania for providing services in English in a work environment that does not require her to speak Romanian.

[Epsilonn]

Yes Trevor it is just a normal visit visa. In Romania it is for 3 months. She, as a Syrian has the right to come to me. There she will come based on invitation. My dad will invite her based on the fact that I am his son but, because I am working in the UK at the moment, he does that for me. It makes sense. We also provide additional documents like CVs and our story + pictures of her family + plane tickets reservation showing that she will come to RO and return to Syria after her visit.

These additional documents are to suggest she has ties to Syria and she would better be there instead of being a refugee in Romania. Trust me, she lives better in Syria than being a refugee in Romania.

But, in this time, while she is in Romania, I can marry her and I can do that in Romania, while she is on a normal visit visa. It is not UK there anymore. After that, we apply for a residence permit there and she can actually stay there. No need to go back.

What I need is to GET her in Romania on a normal visit visa. For this, I want NOT to make people of Romania suspicious of anything weird in my application. I want that visa application to only show the fact that she comes to visit me and that it actually makes sense for her to visit me. After that, we can do what we want and can, but at least I have her there, safe and secure. I don't know about me going there or staying to the UK etc. I want her in my life...

The only thing that may indicate the fact she will settle there is that the Immigration Office from Romania might think I would marry her! So what, is that the worst thing? This is what I am asking! Our application will indicate the fact we are friends etc. and she wants to see my family. But this visit could lead to marriage. Is this bad in the eyes of the authorities? She will be on a visit with ties to family and job etc... + the possibility of getting married... It only makes sense.

[Epsilonn]

Trevor, I will also prove the fact that I sent money to her in Syria. That was basically for the trip and hotel in Beirut so you don't have to think of somehting else.

But, bottom line is. Based on all this conversation, what additional documents would be a plus for our application and which not?

- CVs (both ENG and RO)
- her degrees
- plane tickets reservation (+return to Beirut where she takes bus to Syria) for her and me for the time I would like her to visit me, proof I sent money to her
- our story and how we met etc.
- pictures of her family and house and where she works etc...
- pictures of us together in Beirut
- online conversations excerpts
- letter from her boss and / or contract of employment
- pictures of my house
- bank account for her in Romania (30 Euros x number of days she spends there)

So which of these could show a plus and which would be a negative and maybe the reason for that?
I put all these because she comes from her country and I want to show people that I actually know her, I want to see her in Romania and perhaps I will marry her (without mentioning marriage in application). But the possibility of marriage in there and can be easily understood from our application. But, in the same time, given the fact that her visa is a normal visit visa and given she has ties to her country, she will easily go back. So people could understand this: they might get married in Romania or, after her visit, she goes back to Syria and he goes back to the UK and they wanted to see each other to get to know each other better.