Dual nationality NI(uk)/Irish and non-eea (usa): Success!

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Well I don't think you could have been clearer.

[chaoclive]

I still don't get it though.

They say working in a country of which you are a national doesn't count as exercising treaty rights...not sure how to read this one...

[vinny]

Imagine someone with multiple nationalities of all the EEA countries. Can s/he exercise treaty rights in any EEA countries?

[chaoclive]

Well, according to this, no, he/she can't (http://ec.europa.eu/justice/policies/citizenship/docs/guide_free_movement_low.pdf): "The Directive only applies if you actually move to or reside in an EU country other than that of which you are a national, and to your family members who accompany or join you."

[jbminger]

from the the UKBA website :

"EUN2.16 Can family members of dual British / Irish nationals qualify for an EEA family permit?

Until 16 July 2012 persons who held British citizenship and who were also nationals of another EEA member state could rely on that EEA nationality to benefit from the terms of the Directive. This was because Regulation 2 of the 2006 Regulations did not preclude such dual national British citizens from benefitting from free right movements.

The definition of EEA national in Regulation 2 was amended on 16 July 2012 to preclude dual British citizens/EEA nationals from benefitting from the Directive and therefore also to preclude their family members from relying upon free movement rights.

The McCarthy judgment determined that a person who holds the nationality of the host Member State (in our case British nationality) and has never exercised their right of free movement and residence does not benefit from the terms of the Free Movement Directive. This is regardless of whether or not they hold dual nationality with another member state. This means that family members are also unable to derive a right of residence under the Directive on their basis of their relationship to such a national. British citizens can only acquire free movement rights in certain scenarios and so are in general prevented from circumventing the requirements of the Immigration Rules when sponsoring entry to the UK of family members.

Where a person has applied on the basis that they are a dual British citizen/EEA national on or after 16 July 2012 then the application must be refused unless the person either:

1) Meets the provisions of regulation 9 (which gives effect to the ECJ case of Surinder Singh or
2) Comes within the scope of the transitional arrangements set out below."

Sooo....they (the UKBA) seem to blur the line, or possibly remove it all together, of the technical/legal definition of "free movement", because in the above, they are speaking of "free movement" with regards to dual nationality persons. As many of you have pointed out, people with dual nationality are not able to exercise free movement. They should have worded the above differently.

[chaoclive]

I'm just concerned that you might run into problems in your application for EEA2. You got the visa, that the first main obstacle over with.

I would recommend that you contact the Law Centre (NI) when you get there. You can find their contact details here:

http://www.lawcentreni.org/about-us/contact-us.html

Dual nationality is a really sticky issue and I think that some legal advice wouldn't go amiss!

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

I still don't get it though.

They say working in a country of which you are a national doesn't count as exercising treaty rights...not sure how to read this one...

The McCarthy judgement leaves many questions that might be clarified if another case came before the court. The circumstances of the case were somewhat unusual.

The UK's regulations clarified this further in terms of the UK, but these may be open to challenge.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

I'm just concerned that you might run into problems in your application for EEA2. You got the visa, that the first main obstacle over with.

I would recommend that you contact the Law Centre (NI) when you get there. You can find their contact details here:

http://www.lawcentreni.org/about-us/contact-us.html

Dual nationality is a really sticky issue and I think that some legal advice wouldn't go amiss!

It is correct to say that this is not clear cut. A case that mirrored the circumstance of McCarthy would fail. Also, one that falls foul of the UK regulations would also fail.

The UK regulations do not prohibit a UK (emphasis on the first) / dual Irish citizen from exercising Singh in Ireland (where they would be British / Irish).

[stupot]

Hi all, new poster here (hello). Signed up specifically because of this thread.

Firstly, jbminger, thanks so much for starting this thread (and for updating it). It gives me hope (I'm dual British/Irish from Northern Ireland and I'm currently in Taiwan with my Taiwanese wife and two kids).

I have one question that doesn't appear to have been asked (sorry if I've missed it). In your application was your working history/residency in Ireland required at all, or was it the wife's Irish passport (and possibly residency in Ireland) solely that got you in?


chaoclive, we also seem to be in a similar boat, so I wish you and your partner the very best of luck. I would be very keen to hear how you get on with whatever route you decide to take.

Incidentally, you mention this:

The benefit of the Irish spouse visa is that it allows for naturalization after 3 years (instead of the 5 required under the UK/EEAFP rules), if you were interested in that.

It's my understanding that the spouse or civil partner of a British National can apply for (UK) naturalisation after 3 years (the one concession that still seems to be there since it would be 5 years for others). See here: http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... ofcitizen/

[chaoclive]

Hey there

Yeah - sounds like we're stuck in the boat indeed...and in the same part of the world. haha.

I'm still going with the Surinder Singh route via another EU country.

I've never considered the UK spouse visa (finances...) but I've noticed that some people say that it's now 5 years for citizenship too...I must be wrong as the websites says 3 years. That's good news but I won't be able to go down that route

[stupot]

Hey there

Yeah - sounds like we're stuck in the boat indeed...and in the same part of the world. haha.

I'm still going with the Surinder Singh route via another EU country.

I've never considered the UK spouse visa (finances...) but I've noticed that some people say that it's now 5 years for citizenship too...I must be wrong as the websites says 3 years. That's good news but I won't be able to go down that route

Hey chaoclive, thanks for replying. Yeah, I really don't want to go down that road either, tbh, unless we managed to get into the UK directly from here (Irish passport) and lived on the mainland (Edinburgh would be the most likely destination in that case, since we both have lots of connections there).

[chaoclive]

Getting the EEAFP might not be a problem. but the issue of dual nationality would come up when applying for EEA2; the form specifically asks if the sponsor is a British citizen. I'd be worried about lying on that hehe.

The OP was lucky enough to get the EEA FP and seems to be looking to move back to NI. I think this is what I'm gonna do...with a short sojourn in sunny spain first

Let's keep updating when we get any new info!
C

[Jambo]

It's my understanding that the spouse or civil partner of a British National can apply for (UK) naturalisation after 3 years (the one concession that still seems to be there since it would be 5 years for others). See here: http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... ofcitizen/

The residential requirement period for spouse of BC is 3 years. However, naturalisation requires ILR (or PR under the EU route) which following the changes last year can only be obtained after 5 years of residence so effectively although only the last 3 years are considered for naturalisation (in terms of meeting the requirements such as days of absence), one can only apply after 5 years in the country.

[chaoclive]

Cool - thx for the clarification.

[stupot]

Hi Jambo,

Thanks for that. Wow, that sucks, but then how many of us are surprised?

Do you have a link where it says ILR is required before naturalisation is allowed?

EDIT: Ahh, from the same link above (my bolding):

You must be free from immigration time restrictions on the day you make your application. This often means having already gained settled status before you make your citizenship application. How and when you are eligible for settled status will depend on the immigration category you were in and successfully meeting its requirements for indefinite leave to enter or remain. For example spouses and civil partners of British citizens who must complete a 5 year probationary period under Appendix FM would generally have the opportunity to apply for naturalisation on this basis once they complete the 5 year period and obtain indefinite leave to remain provided they can also meet the other requirements of naturalisation at that time.

Well that's disappointing. Why do they even mention the 3 years above I wonder.

Sorry, guys. I don't want to take this thread off-topic. It's just that this is the best dual-nationality UK/Irish (Northern Irish) with non-EEA partner/spouse thread I've found.

[jbminger]

Hi all, new poster here (hello). Signed up specifically because of this thread.

Firstly, jbminger, thanks so much for starting this thread (and for updating it). It gives me hope (I'm dual British/Irish from Northern Ireland and I'm currently in Taiwan with my Taiwanese wife and two kids).

I have one question that doesn't appear to have been asked (sorry if I've missed it). In your application was your working history/residency in Ireland required at all, or was it the wife's Irish passport (and possibly residency in Ireland) solely that got you in?

You're welcome stupot. I'm glad this is beneficial others, we certainly had alot of questions when starting this process, and probably will continue to as time moves on. A good link for probably accurate, consolidated info is http://www.lawcentreni.org/EoR/immigrat ... tions.html

Required...I believe yes, as part of the Surinder Singh route, one must prove that they lived/worked together with their EEA spouse in the other member state. IMHO, it was necessary to prove this.

Was it required? I don't know for certain, but I did provide pay slips from my employer in Dublin along with utility bills in both of our names, as well as my (now expired) GNIB immigration card.

Let me know if you have any other questions, I'll do my best to answer them.

[stupot]

Hi all, new poster here (hello). Signed up specifically because of this thread.

Firstly, jbminger, thanks so much for starting this thread (and for updating it). It gives me hope (I'm dual British/Irish from Northern Ireland and I'm currently in Taiwan with my Taiwanese wife and two kids).

I have one question that doesn't appear to have been asked (sorry if I've missed it). In your application was your working history/residency in Ireland required at all, or was it the wife's Irish passport (and possibly residency in Ireland) solely that got you in?

Required...I believe yes, as part of the Surinder Singh route, one must prove that they lived/worked together with their EEA spouse in the other member state. IMHO, it was necessary to prove this.

Was it required? I don't know for certain, but I did provide pay slips from my employer in Dublin along with utility bills in both of our names, as well as my (now expired) GNIB immigration card.

Let me know if you have any other questions, I'll do my best to answer them.

Thanks for your reply, jbminger.

My confusion lies in the fact that (as I understand it) you and your wife are not strictly "returning" to the UK, but rather going there as Irish (and spouse of Irish). So in that case I'm just wondering how important that "working in Ireland" information was. This is of great interest to me because my wife and I are in a similar situation EXCEPT that we have not lived together in a European country other than the UK. We are currently in Taiwan (ten years now), and I lived in Spain for five years just before I met her. So your Ireland residency/employment is the key difference between your situation and ours.

Thanks again for any info at all that you can share. It's a very unique situation this Northern Irish dual-nationality thing and you are the first person I've seen successfully finding a way to use it to your advantage. I'm extremely happy for you.

[jbminger]

My confusion lies in the fact that (as I understand it) you and your wife are not strictly "returning" to the UK, but rather going there as Irish (and spouse of Irish). So in that case I'm just wondering how important that "working in Ireland" information was. This is of great interest to me because my wife and I are in a similar situation EXCEPT that we have not lived together in a European country other than the UK. We are currently in Taiwan (ten years now), and I lived in Spain for five years just before I met her. So your Ireland residency/employment is the key difference between your situation and ours.

Thanks again for any info at all that you can share. It's a very unique situation this Northern Irish dual-nationality thing and you are the first person I've seen successfully finding a way to use it to your advantage. I'm extremely happy for you.

I believe that I am entering the UK with my dual national (UK/Irish) spouse who is returning to the UK. We submitted my wife's UK birth certificate with the application as well as her Irish passport. She doesn't currently have a valid UK passport.

I believe, according to McCarthy and to Singh, that you and your spouse must have lived/worked together in another member state, and if not, then your second EEA nationality doesn't matter and you must apply using the standard UK spouse entry route.

[stupot]

Thanks again for your reply, jbminger.

Please let us know how you get on with the move.

[magpiefaerie]

We have a remarkably similar case to jbminger, and I've spent the entire bleary-eyed day trying to work out our rights on the point of being a dual citizen.

I'm a British/Irish national, have not yet exercised any treaty rights, but planning to move to Dublin for upwards of 3 months, then return to the UK. I've read the whole of this thread, plus several other forums and websites. Other than this thread, the most helpful thing I've come across for our specific situation is here:

3.1 In order to be able to benefit from EU law provisions, the EEA national must normally, amongst other things, be outside of his/her country of citizenship.

The Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU), in the case of McCarthy C-343/09, looked at whether a dual British/Irish citizen who had lived all her life in the UK and had never moved across EU borders, could rely on her Irish citizenship to support her husband’s application for a residence card under EU law. The Court decided, amongst other things, that she could not. Following the judgment in McCarthy and as introduced in the 2012 amendments to the 2006 Regulations, a person holding dual citizenship must have exercised his/her right of free movement in order to rely on their European citizenship under EU Law to support an application by a non-EEA family member.

A dual citizen who has never exercised his/her right of free movement and has always resided in the Member State of which s/he is a national cannot be said to be a beneficiary of the Citizen’s Directive. It no longer makes any difference that the citizen in question is also a national of a Member State other than that where s/he resides. This means that family members are also unable to derive a right of residence under the Directive on the basis of their relationship to such a national. Therefore, a dual British/Irish citizen in Northern Ireland can no longer rely on his/her Irish citizenship to support an application for a non-EEA family member, if that dual British/Irish citizen has lived all of his/her life in the UK.

It remains to be seen how these 2012 amendments will be interpreted by the courts.

From: http://www.lawcentreni.org/EoR/immigrat ... tions.html

My partner and I are already in the UK, but we're not yet married and his 6 month visa is due to expire in early Feb. We're unsure whether to:

1. marry here (although it is explicitly not permitted by his visa);

2. apply for an Irish tourist visa, then marry and stay there (worried about not getting the visa in time/it being denied); or

3. leaving the EU completely to marry, then going to Ireland or another country to exercise treaty rights (will be expensive, plus have to comply with regulations of yet another country and will lose a lot of time travelling).

I am self-employed, my partner isn't working (nor currently allowed to work) and we're on a very, very low income. I will have to give up state benefits in the UK in order to do this.

We would especially like to here from people with very similar situations who are further along the route than us.

Thanks,
Magpie

[magpiefaerie]

I just received a response back from Your Europe Advice (http://europa.eu/youreurope/advice/index_en.htm). Their response was very long, and contained a lot of helpful information. Of particular interest was the NOTE section at the bottom. I will post the majority of the response here, with personal details removed. Hope this can be of some help to others:

Thank you for getting in touch with Your Europe Advice.

Your post is written in the context of drastic changes which have taken effect
under the UK Immigration Rules in July 2012, whereby severe financial conditions
are attached to bringing a foreign spouse to the UK. For more on this, please
follow the link:
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... -migration


Given this involves matters of domestic legislation, this goes beyond the remit
of Your Europe Advice.

A preliminary remark that has to be made is that the UK Government is under
intense political pressure to restrict free movement law, as a result of which a
number of legal corners are being cut (see note below, at the bottom of our post).

Accordingly, despite the fact that you are a dual Irish/UK citizen, you are not
able to invoke your Irish nationality in the UK, nor for that matter are you
able to rely on your UK nationality in the Republic of Ireland, on the back of a
restrictive interpretation of EU caselaw by both the UK and the Republic of
Ireland (see note below).

On 3 December 2013, the UK government adopted the Immigration (European Economic
Area) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2013 (SI No 3032) which amend Regulation 9
of the Immigration (EEA) Regulations. The new rules take effect on 1 January 2014.

From that date, it will be a requirement for those using the Surinder Singh
route that the centre of [the British citizen] s life has transferred to the EEA
State where [the British citizen] resided as a worker or self-employed person.

The official Explanatory Note states:

Paragraph 5 of the Schedule replaces the existing regulation 9 of the 2006
Regulations to require a British citizen to have transferred the centre of his
or her life to another member State in order to acquire a right of residence in
the UK for his or her non-EEA family member seeking a right to reside in the UK
upon their return. Factors relevant to whether the centre of a person s life has
been transferred to another member State include the period of residence in that
member State, the location of that person s principal residence, and the degree
of integration. These changes are to ensure that a British citizen engages in
genuine and effective use of the rights conferred by Directive 2004/38/EC before
a right to reside in the United Kingdom is conferred on a non-EEA family member.

According to regulation 9(3) (of the EEA 2006 Regulations), the centre of a
person s life will be assessed by reference to:

(a) the period of residence in the EEA State as a worker or self-employed person;
(b) the location of [the person] s principal residence;
(c) the degree of integration of [the person] in the EEA State.

It would appear that the changes entering into force on the 1st January 2014 may
potentially adversely affect your spouse's chances of qualifying either for the
issue of the EEA family permit at the UK embassy in Ireland or the issue of a
residence card by the Home Office in the UK.

Here are some initial thoughts on the changes:

As to the duration of the time spent working in another EU country, the new rule
appears to require a duration of at least half a year, on the basis that it
appears to require habitual residence in the other Member State. The rule of
thumb for the notion of "habitual residence" is a minimum of 6 months residence.

Assessing whether there has been a change in location of a person s principal
residence involves looking at several issues. If the rules are interpreted with
the necessary degree of proportionality as required by EU law, a person s
principal residence should be considered to have changed from the UK to another
EU country if the person moves to another EU country with his close family
members for example. It would also mean complying with local residence
formalities in the EU country of work.

The degree of integration should be assessed by reference to several factual
elements (see Joined Cases C-523/11 & C-585/11 Prinz and Seeberger [2013] ECR
nyr (judgment of EU Court of Justice of 18 July 2013), at para. 38). Integration
in your case will be proven by the fact that you are a dual Irish/UK citizen. It
can also be that you have other family there, that you were educated there.
Other social and economic factors that should also be taken into account include
paying national insurance and income tax in the country of work among other
circumstances.


Assuming that you are married and that you are both resident in the Republic of Ireland, where you are employed, your spouse will enjoy a right of residence there by virtue of
Article 23 Directive 2004/38. Note also that the Irish authorities will consider
your spouse's entitlement to reside in Ireland by reference to the Surinder
Singh caselaw, given that you are a dual Irish/UK citizen.

Can we get married in Ireland and then stay there in order to exercise the
treaty right, or would we have to marry first and then go there? You are
potentially able to marry either in the UK or Ireland. Given that you are both
in the UK at the present time, it may be advisable for you to get married in the
UK, so as to benefit from EU free movement rules as you make your move to the
Republic of Ireland (we reiterate the note above, to wit that the Irish
authorities may take the view that your spouse is not subject to Directive
2004/38; instead that he is subject to the Surinder Singh caselaw).

What would be the ramifications of marrying in the UK without permission?

Your partner is not required to apply for permission to marry in the UK.

Ultimately, it is for the Registrar to register you as a married couple, not for
the Immigration Service to make that decision for the Registrar.

By relying on the Surinder Singh route, you and your spouse will be able to live
in Ireland, with the added requirement after the 1st January 2014, that you must
shift the centre of your life from the UK to Ireland, by reference to the
components described above, as well as proving that you have exercised your
rights of residence in the Republic of Ireland as a worker or a self employed
person.

Also note that with respect to crossing the border into the Republic of Ireland,
your spouse is able to rely on the application of Article 5 paragraph 4,
allowing your spouse to enter visa free into the Republic of Ireland, provided
your spouse is able to produce evidence to establish that he is covered under
free movement law (spouse of a dual UK/Irish citizen going back to the Republic
of Ireland after having exercised rights of residence in the UK).

It must be stressed that some of these conditions are the result of UK law which
is a restrictive interpretation on the terms of the ECJ caselaw cited above.
Particularly in point is the case of Eind Eind Case C-291/05;

(http://eur-lex.europa.eu/Notice.do?val= ... isu=#texte).

Also, bear in mind the 2 joined cases for which the Advocate General has issued
her conclusions on the 12th December 2013. The Advocate General appears to be in
tune with the amendment to the EEA 2006 Regulations entering into force on the
1st January 2014, given that the Advocate General also concludes that the EU
citizen must become habitually resident in the other Member State, as a
condition precedent for the family member to rely on the Surinder Singh caselaw.

The Advocate General s opinion is not binding on the full court and we will have
to observe how the Court reacts to this opinion; this is expected within the
next 6 to 8 months. The two joined cases referred to above will therefore be crucial in determining what your rights and those of your spouse are likely to be in the future.

You can get further advice concerning this topic through the Citizens Advice
Bureau.

http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index/getadvice

Alternatively, you may seek the assistance of a law centre:

http://www.lawcentres.org.uk/directory/location/London/

Please find the link to the Law Society website, with a search engine to locate
a specialized lawyer by area of specialization and proximity to domicile.
http://www.lawsociety.org.uk/choosingan ... icitor.law

The AIRE centre will provide direct legal advice and assistance on a case by
case basis:
http://www.airecentre.org/law_index.html

I trust the above answers the questions you had and thank you again for getting
in touch with Your Europe Advice.

Kind regards.
Your Europe Advice.

[Note:
The UK takes a restrictive view of the scope of free movement for dual UK/EU
citizens. The basis for this arises out of Case C434/09, concerning a dual
national who held both the nationality of her Member State of residence and the
nationality of another Member State of the European Union, where the Court of
Justice of the European Union held that the dual citizen could not rely on
Directive 2004/38 in order to bring her spouse to the country of residence.

An important limitation to the scope of the above case was that the person in
question had never exercised any of the rights of residence in the UK (her
country of nationality and residence).

The case concerned a dual Irish/UK citizen who was born in the UK, and had lived
all her life in the UK. She had never worked, been self sufficient or studied in
the UK. At the time of the application for the visa, she was on benefits.

• A broad reading of McCarthy would argue that dual UK/EU citizens fall within
the scope of Directive 2004/38 where the said dual citizen has exercised Treaty
rights in the UK.

Accordingly, I would contend that a dual UK/EU citizen who has exercised her
Treaty rights in Italy, (by working in your case) does indeed fall under the
scope of Directive 2004/38.

In the light of McCarthy, I would further submit that it is only where the dual
EU/UK citizen has not exercised any Treaty rights at all that he/she is not able
to rely on Directive 2004/38, in the Member State of his/her nationality.

• Predictably, the UK is taking a restrictive view, with the result that dual
British/EU citizens fall outside the scope of Directive 2004/38.

Accordingly, the only way for dual citizens to come under the application of EU
free movement law in the UK, is by way of the Surinder Singh caselaw (see below
for a discussion of the same).

The UK interpretation appears to be inconsistent with the Metock ruling where
the Court prescribed that Directive 2004/38 had to be interpreted with the aim
of strengthening the right of free movement and residence of all Union citizens
, so that Union citizens cannot derive less rights from that directive than from
the instruments of secondary legislation which it amends or repeals (at
paragraph 59).

Furthermore, Dicta from the Court of Justice suggest that the UK's take on
McCarthy is likely to be incompatible with EU law. This arises from the
interpretation of the Ankara Agreement and Decision 1/80 (Case C 7/10 and 9/10),
[ Article 7 of Decision No 1/80 of 19 September 1980 on the development of the
Association adopted by the Association Council set up by the Agreement
establishing an Association between the European Economic Community and Turkey,
must be interpreted as meaning that the members of the family of a Turkish
worker duly registered as belonging to the labour force of a Member State can
still invoke that provision once that worker has acquired the nationality of the
host Member State while retaining his Turkish nationality ].

[ciaran1]

I grew up in Belfast, have Irish citizenship, an expired British passport and in 2007 obtained American citizenship having at that point lived in Baltimore, MD for 7 years. Can anyone please let me know if my wife of 4 years who holds only U.S. citizenship will qualify for a UK EEA family permit so that we can relocate from Baltimore, MD to live and work in Belfast based on my Irish citizenship? Our 2 children have both Irish and American citizenship. We hope to move to Belfast in 2014. I'm not sure if this is relevant but in the mid 1990s I spent 3 months working in Germany and 3 months working in the Czech Republic. I have never lived or worked in the Republic of Ireland. What would be the first step for my wife to apply for the UK EEA family permit?

[chaoclive]

Technically, no; you shouldn't be able to get an EEA family permit...however...as the OP on this forum got one, your spouse probably would be able to get one too.

This is a quote from what I've written above:
"Getting the EEAFP might not be a problem. but the issue of dual nationality would come up when applying for EEA2; the form specifically asks if the sponsor is a British citizen. I'd be worried about lying on that hehe.

The OP was lucky enough to get the EEA FP and seems to be looking to move back to NI. I think this is what I'm gonna do...with a short sojourn in sunny spain first"

Also, see this: you have British citizenship until you renounce it (shock horror for the staunch nationalists amongst us!): https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ment-45902 or in PDF here: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ice001.pdf

The gist is that you would have to proactively renounce your British citizenship to be viewed solely as Irish.

Was your wife with you when you worked in Germany or the Czech Republic? If so, you're good to go (as long as you have the pay slips/proof of living together etc). If not (as seems to be the case), it is irrelevant as the two of you should have lived together when you were working in the other EEA country.

It makes no differences whatsoever that you have never worked in the ROI.

The first step is to apply for the family permit (using ONLY your Irish passport) and try your luck...Got to the website of the nearest UK Embassy to make an online application. Look through the choices at the start of the form...you will see there is one for EEA national partner (something like this anyway-the system has recently changed). You will need to go to the Embassy to give biometrics etc. The actual application process is really straightforward.

You will have to make a decision about the EEA2 application when you get to the UK...the application form asks if the EEA has British citizenship (options: lie and face punishment OR renounce OR provide proof of being entitled under Surinder Singh)

Hope this helps in some way.
CC

[ciaran1]

Thanks for the great advice CC! If you don't mind I have a few additional questions for you.

1. My wife and I married in early 2010 having met in 2006 in the U.S. so she was not present with me when I lived and worked in the Czech Republic and Germany in the mid 1990s. Will this have any impact on her application for the EEA FP? ***My wife and I have NEVER lived & worked in an EEA country together - we have only lived and worked together in the U.S.A. which is a non EEA country***

2. If her application to our local UK Embassy in the U.S. was successful for the EEA FP can she then travel to Belfast and immediately start working or must she first apply for a residence card via the EEA 2 application when she arrives in Belfast? If yes how long on average does it take to process the EEA 2 application before she will hopefully have in hand her residence card?

3. I don't think I'd have any problem stating on the EEA 2 application that I don't have British citizenship because my British passport expired many years ago and I have no intention of ever renewing it. The only reason I obtained it was because as a poor student in the early 1990s I wanted to save money versus applying for an Irish passport. Do you therefore think its really necessary to formally renounce British citizenship before I complete the EEA 2 application?

Out of curiosity where do you live now and where in Ireland do you intend to return to pending a successful EEA FP application?

Thanks again,
Ciaran

[chaoclive]

Hi, I'm not an expert...so I hope that other people will come in and give their opinions.

1) If you were Irish ONLY it wouldn't matter that your wife had never been with you in Germany/Czech Rep. However, as you do have a British passport it would definitely matter if the British Embassy knows that you have one. Please remember that your spouse should not be able to get an EEA Family Permit cos are a dual national. However, if the EEA family permit is granted, you won't have any problems UNTIL you come to the Residence Card application (EEA2)

2) In theory, she can work directly BUT, in practice, many employers won't believe that she can work without seeing some 'proof'. Therefore, she may have issues finding work before she has her residence card. Apparently the EEA 2 application takes up to 6 months (the longest possible period allowed by law, however, there have been cases where this has been longer).

3) PLEASE NOTE: just because your British passport has expired DOES NOT say that you don't have British citizenship!!!!!!!! I would urge caution with this!!!! See the link I posted above: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ice001.pdf

The gist is that you would have to proactively renounce your British citizenship to be viewed solely as Irish.

Therefore, I think you would be breaking the law if you were to say that you didn't have British citizenship. If you are never going to reapply for a British passport in the future, just renounce your citizenship. See here on how to do that: http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... tionality/

You have to fill in form RN, send it off including payment of 187GBP.

You should be careful with 3). If it were me, I'd definitely renounce.

I'm currently based in China (am originally from Co. Tyrone) and am in the same situation as you (dual national; willing to renounce British citizenship closer to the time). I'm planning to move back to Belfast too in the future, but this will not be until next summer at the earliest.

I would REALLY urge you to do some research on point number 3). Don't run the risk of 'lying' even if you don't intend to renew the passport...you might get in unnecessary trouble.

Hope you get on ok with this.
CC