Immigrationboards.com

My first post, so hello everyone!

I am a Lithuanian citizen who's studied in the UK September 2010 to July 2014 and then worked for the past few years, during which I've had around 5 employments ranging a total of 5 years (both employed and self-employed). I am currently applying for a permanent residence permit card.

Issue is, I have submitted my tax returns for the time being as self-employed (which would cover a total of 3 years) only in 2016. Right now, I am basically waiting for HMRC to get back to me with their recalculations and the penalties for the late repayment for the past years. On the other hand - I have got the SA100's and the bank statements for me paying my Class 2 NI contributions (for each of the years).

The second issue is the time it would take me in order to get the documents supporting the fact that Lithuania has covered my health insurance for the whole 4 years at the university, including the logistics of legalising the documents between the two countries. As far as I understand my CSI would have been covered if I have not been a student (evidence below).

I have already called UKVI two times and:
- They seemed to be reluctant regarding my late tax repayments. UKVI told me that is not an issue and that I should still submit the copies of my SA100 forms. What is the actual state of the things for those who had this particular or similar case themselves?
- As opposed to what is said in this thread: http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... 09913.html UKVI is stating that being a student automatically makes you obliged to have a CSI cover even if you worked (and I have asked this question during both of my direct calls to UKVI). Do you think I should give them an another call?

goldfinch wrote:My first post, so hello everyone!

I am a Lithuanian citizen who's studied in the UK September 2010 to July 2014 and then worked for the past few years, during which I've had around 5 employments ranging a total of 5 years (both employed and self-employed). I am currently applying for a permanent residence permit card.

Issue is, I have submitted my tax returns for the time being as self-employed (which would cover a total of 3 years) only in 2016. Right now, I am basically waiting for HMRC to get back to me with their recalculations and the penalties for the late repayment for the past years. On the other hand - I have got the SA100's and the bank statements for me paying my Class 2 NI contributions (for each of the years).

The second issue is the time it would take me in order to get the documents supporting the fact that Lithuania has covered my health insurance for the whole 4 years at the university, including the logistics of legalising the documents between the two countries. As far as I understand my CSI would have been covered if I have not been a student (evidence below).

I have already called UKVI two times and:
- They seemed to be reluctant regarding my late tax repayments. UKVI told me that is not an issue and that I should still submit the copies of my SA100 forms. What is the actual state of the things for those who had this particular or similar case themselves?
- As opposed to what is said in this thread: http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... 09913.html UKVI is stating that being a student automatically makes you obliged to have a CSI cover even if you worked (and I have asked this question during both of my direct calls to UKVI). Do you think I should give them an another call?

Welcome.

Stop right there and step away from the telephone.
The HO helpline is notorious for misleading advice for which they are not held accountable.

For your carefree student years to have contributed towards acquiring PR yes, you needed to have either CSI in place;

• or a foreign-issued EHIC;
  or to have been covered by some home country health policy (eg via parents) that extended to cover you in UK;
  or a UK-issued RC, issued to you as a student in/before 2011

(Working at a later date and paying taxes/NI does not exempt you from that).

Regarding self-employment, confirmation of PR is not a business visa.
You do need evidence that you were self-employed - but not necessarily in the form of tax returns and fully paid up taxes.

You may face issues later (eg regarding 'good character') if you have ambitions for the privilege of citizenship.
But for now you merely have to show you were exercising treaty rights as a self-employed person and that your economic activity was genuine and effective.

See relevant HO guidance on those vital matters:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _clean.pdf

Finally, you are an A8 national but appear to have started work after WRS ended so no worries in that area.

noajthan wrote:

goldfinch wrote:My first post, so hello everyone!

I am a Lithuanian citizen who's studied in the UK September 2010 to July 2014 and then worked for the past few years, during which I've had around 5 employments ranging a total of 5 years (both employed and self-employed). I am currently applying for a permanent residence permit card.

Issue is, I have submitted my tax returns for the time being as self-employed (which would cover a total of 3 years) only in 2016. Right now, I am basically waiting for HMRC to get back to me with their recalculations and the penalties for the late repayment for the past years. On the other hand - I have got the SA100's and the bank statements for me paying my Class 2 NI contributions (for each of the years).

The second issue is the time it would take me in order to get the documents supporting the fact that Lithuania has covered my health insurance for the whole 4 years at the university, including the logistics of legalising the documents between the two countries. As far as I understand my CSI would have been covered if I have not been a student (evidence below).

I have already called UKVI two times and:
- They seemed to be reluctant regarding my late tax repayments. UKVI told me that is not an issue and that I should still submit the copies of my SA100 forms. What is the actual state of the things for those who had this particular or similar case themselves?
- As opposed to what is said in this thread: http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... 09913.html UKVI is stating that being a student automatically makes you obliged to have a CSI cover even if you worked (and I have asked this question during both of my direct calls to UKVI). Do you think I should give them an another call?

Welcome.

Stop right there and step away from the telephone.
The HO helpline is notorious for misleading advice for which they are not held accountable.

For your carefree student years to have contributed towards acquiring PR yes, you needed to have either CSI in place;

• or a foreign-issued EHIC;
  or to have been covered by some home country health policy (eg via parents) that extended to cover you in UK;
  or a UK-issued RC, issued to you as a student in/before 2011

(Working at a later date and paying taxes/NI does not exempt you from that).

Regarding self-employment, confirmation of PR is not a business visa.
You do need evidence that you were self-employed - but not necessarily in the form of tax returns and fully paid up taxes.

You may face issues later (eg regarding 'good character') if you have ambitions for the privilege of citizenship.
But for now you merely have to show you were exercising treaty rights as a self-employed person and that your economic activity was genuine and effective.

See relevant HO guidance on those vital matters:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _clean.pdf

Finally, you are an A8 national but appear to have started work after WRS ended so no worries in that area.

I agree with you on the phone matters. That's why I have decided to create a thread on this forum.

Here's the catch: I have not been carefree during my student years: I have found my first job while studying in January 2011 (3 months after I have entered the UK), and since then I have fully supported myself both during the studies and the holidays at the Uni.

By this I mean that I have been earning enough to pay for my house, bills and my living over the full course of my studies; I have essentially paid the taxes (or I am to pay, depending on what was the job) for that period, but it seems (or as I was told by the person on the phone) that it would not be counted towards by CSI if I have also been studying at the same time.

I have had an WRS registration certificate, but I have worked for that company starting February 2011 and ending August 2011. The government has abolished the scheme in July 2011, as it seems - so that should have been covered (or is it not?).

At the moment I am trying to get a letter from my father supporting the fact that he has financially covered the first 6 months of me living in the UK.

There might be a case, on the other hand - that I will have an issue finding the right documents from the Lithuanian NHS supporting that I have been covered by a CSI over the full course of my 4 years at the university because of them not being able to find my name in the database (although I must be in there); so I am currently in the process of assessing my chances and other counter-arguments to me getting the permanent residence permit

goldfinch wrote:...

I agree with you on the phone matters. That's why I have decided to create a thread on this forum.

Here's the catch: I have not been carefree during my student years: I have found my first job while studying in January 2011 (3 months after I have entered the UK), and since then I have fully supported myself both during the studies and the holidays at the Uni.

By this I mean that I have been earning enough to pay for my house, bills and my living over the full course of my studies; I have essentially paid the taxes (or I am to pay, depending on what was the job) for that period, but it seems (or as I was told by the person on the phone) that it would not be counted towards by CSI if I have also been studying at the same time.

I have had an WRS registration certificate, but I have worked for that company starting February 2011 and ending August 2011. The government has abolished the scheme in July 2011, as it seems - so that should have been covered (or is it not?).

At the moment I am trying to get a letter from my father supporting the fact that he has financially covered the first 6 months of me living in the UK.

There might be a case, on the other hand - that I will have an issue finding the right documents from the Lithuanian NHS supporting that I have been covered by a CSI over the full course of my 4 years at the university because of them not being able to find my name in the database (although I must be in there); so I am currently in the process of assessing my chances and other counter-arguments to me getting the permanent residence permit

Commendable enterprise in the true spirit of free movement.

If you were a worker with WRS fully and properly filed (for duration of WRS - until April 2011) then all good.

If you apply on basis of acquiring PR as a worker &/or self-employed qualified person (and not as a student) in that early period then no need to show you had CSI.

The HO advice you received in that regard appears incorrect.
(Only students and self-sufficient persons needed CSI).

Not sure how you found enough hours in the day;
you will need to show your work was genuine & effective and not marginal & supplementary.

Suggest fill out the form, collate supporting evidence - see how it all shapes up.

PS You do not have to use the current, 'monster' PR form. Its not actually a legal requirement to do so.
You may prefer to use an earlier (simpler) version of form; (examples to be found in forum).

goldfinch wrote: Here's the catch: I have not been carefree during my student years: I have found my first job while studying in January 2011 (3 months after I have entered the UK), and since then I have fully supported myself both during the studies and the holidays at the Uni.

By this I mean that I have been earning enough to pay for my house, bills and my living over the full course of my studies; I have essentially paid the taxes (or I am to pay, depending on what was the job) for that period, but it seems (or as I was told by the person on the phone) that it would not be counted towards by CSI if I have also been studying at the same time.

In this case you can be qualified either as self-employed or as a student. However, to qualify as a student you must have CSI and, unfortunately, there is no alternative for it (the fact that you paid NIC or other taxes will not count).

If you claim to be qualified as self-employed, then you do not need CSI. However, it might be tricky to prove that your self employment was genuine and effective rather than marginal and ancillary, especially if you studied full-time and the nature of your jobs was part-time. In HO caseworker guidelines, they have an explicit example of a full-time student working part-time in the evenings (think of barkeeper) and there is a recommendation to treat such work as marginal and ancillary. The fact that you studied might even work against you.. I do not know. Also, keep in mind that the HO will also perform minimum earnings threshold (MET) test. If you pass it, then you have a good chance to argue that your work was genuine and effective.

goldfinch wrote: There might be a case, on the other hand - that I will have an issue finding the right documents from the Lithuanian NHS supporting that I have been covered by a CSI over the full course of my 4 years at the university because of them not being able to find my name in the database (although I must be in there); so I am currently in the process of assessing my chances and other counter-arguments to me getting the permanent residence permit

I am not aware of any Lithuanian "NHS" scheme which would constitute CSI. Let me know if you find something, though!

agnetha007 wrote: In this case you can be qualified either as self-employed or as a student. However, to qualify as a student you must have CSI and, unfortunately, there is no alternative for it (the fact that you paid NIC or other taxes will not count).

If you claim to be qualified as self-employed, then you do not need CSI. However, it might be tricky to prove that your self employment was genuine and effective rather than marginal and ancillary, especially if you studied full-time and the nature of your jobs was part-time. In HO caseworker guidelines, they have an explicit example of a full-time student working part-time in the evenings (think of barkeeper) and there is a recommendation to treat such work as marginal and ancillary. The fact that you studied might even work against you.. I do not know. Also, keep in mind that the HO will also perform minimum earnings threshold (MET) test. If you pass it, then you have a good chance to argue that your work was genuine and effective.

Any case you could direct me to any information of what exactly the MET figures are for the previous years?

agnetha007 wrote: I am not aware of any Lithuanian "NHS" scheme which would constitute CSI. Let me know if you find something, though!

Lithuania's healthcare system covers your health insurance while you're studying in the EU as long as you bring the evidence supporting the fact, e.g. a letter from a university would work as evidence. An ability to obtain an EHIC (which is by itself the sort of evidence accepted by UK HO) is one of the facts that supports my point here. If you are not studying then you may just pay them a fixed amount of €50-70 and it would also cover your health insurance.

My issue right now is actually obtaining the documents that I have been covered by their insurance, as I have only brought to them a letter for the first year of my degree 4 years ago (one of my mistakes). And they no longer have me in their database, which also means they seem to have zero evidence I have ever been covered by our Lithuanian healthcare system. Which is odd and does concern me a bit - but I am still waiting for a letter from the university to prove that I have studied with them, so my visit to the embassy/Lithuania to get more information on this is on hold for now.

Just google MET/PET or see:
https://www.freemovement.org.uk/using-m ... ne-worker/

You don't need to demonstrate CSI if you are accepted as having been a worker qualified person whilst you were nominally a student.

How many hours did you study?
How many hours did you work?
How many weeks/months did you work continuously whilst also a student?

goldfinch wrote: Any case you could direct me to any information of what exactly the MET figures are for the previous years?

MET is linked to Primary Earnings Threshold. See HMRC page here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... tributions
For more details on the MET test, see here:
http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/pdfs/DMG_Memo_1_14.pdf

noajthan wrote: How many hours did you study?

I have studied full-time; around 20-30 hours/week, but factually less than that. I would expect that the official policy of the university is that I have been expected to study more than that though.

noajthan wrote: How many hours did you work?

On the first financial year of my employment I have earned £7760, which is just over the threshold, but the other years are at least 1.5 times that amount. I can not tell the amount of hours directly (because most of them are invoice-based), but my general rate was around £8.5/hr, which equals to 17.5 hours/week for that first year.

noajthan wrote: How many weeks/months did you work continuously whilst also a student?

I have entered UK in October 2010, have started working in February 2011 and then I have continuously worked for at least 3 different employers (and for one of them I have also worked both as self-employed and as an employed person). There are no periods that are not covered either by a set of payslips, P60s, invoices or bank statements.

HO may take the view that as you were spending (depending how you count it) 2 or 3 or perhaps 4 times as much time studying compared to working that you were in fact a student.
As a student, CSI/EHIC/student RC/foreign health policy needs to have been in place for student years to count towards PR.

Read the case studies in the Qualified Person guidance doc I linked for you in earlier post.

Its all about economic activity being genuine & effective rather than marginal & supplementary - as per EU law.

noajthan wrote:HO may take the view that as you were spending (depending how you count it) 2 or 3 or perhaps 4 times as much time studying compared to working that you were in fact a student.
As a student, CSI/EHIC/student RC/foreign health policy needs to have been in place for student years to count towards PR.

Read the case studies in the Qualified Person guidance doc I linked for you in earlier post.

Its all about economic activity being genuine & effective rather than marginal & supplementary - as per EU law.

That is a great point and that is why I am concerned. It seems to me that I've got to obtain the proof of CSI coverage in any case.

agnetha007 wrote: MET is linked to Primary Earnings Threshold. See HMRC page here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... tributions
For more details on the MET test, see here:
http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/pdfs/DMG_Memo_1_14.pdf

Thanks a lot Agne.