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Is it a potential mistake?

This is the area of this board to discuss the referendum taking place in the UK on 23rd June 2016. Also to discuss the ramifications of the EU-UK deal.

Differing views will be respected. Rudeness to other members will not be welcome.

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rsrameshsunil
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Is it a potential mistake?

Post by rsrameshsunil » Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:15 pm

Thinking in one angle, it does sound like a good idea to have a referendum asking people to decide whether to stay in EU or leave.

But for some reason it makes me believe that its probably not a good idea to have a referendum for a decision of this nature. Especially given the fact that every individual's view and voting decision will be more inclined toward a single aspect (for eg. based on their personal story)likely such as immigration wages etc. Peoples decision may not be the best for country's future as a whole.You and me probably do not know well about all the legalities and systems behind EU in all areas. Atleast not as much as experts who directly work in relevant EU orgnisation and intermediary. It just makes me think that we as public could make amateur decision with limited knowledge and vote on incorrect one and collective decide wrong path for country as a whole. Sounds too dangerous to me especially bcos Remain/Leave numbers are evenly split 50:50 meaning it could go either way. Technically that means the decision is in the hands of very small number of people who may arrive at their decision in their own way instead of taking matured informed decision.

In addition there is a possibility of disorientation if brexit happens and david cameron is forced to stay as PM and take decisions and negotiations as seperate country while his original preference and strategy in mind was to remain in EU. The whole process might be inefficIent for any leader to act on instructions of others.

Well just my view really.

Noetic
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Re: Is it a potential mistake?

Post by Noetic » Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:30 am

Agreed - something which has implications on such a wide scale and affects foreign policy to such a degree should maybe not be left to be decided by blinded by misinformation, ignorance and single-issue campaign propaganda demonising immigrants and foreigners.

A part of me almost wishes that the UK leaving will utterly destroy the economy and health system here because it's probably the only way the ignorant masses will comprehend just how stupid they've been.

sebseb
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Re: Is it a potential mistake?

Post by sebseb » Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:12 pm

In 2015 Cameron was backed into corner to give the referendum for the fear that vote might go other ways, and he probably was hoping for coalition government so the referendum would likely to be the first thing they scrap considering how much lib dems hates it. However it turned out he got the small majority so the promised has be delivered.
The whole thing shows how much many politicians crave for power but hate being held accountable, and one prospect the Brexit supporters like to see is that the all future government can be held accountable.

secret.simon
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Re: Is it a potential mistake?

Post by secret.simon » Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:14 pm

@Noetic
From your previous posts, I believe that you are Swiss. The Swiss have had a lot of experience with referendums. I would have thought you would have given a ringing endorsement of the process.

In your opinion, how does the referendum in the UK differ from the very similar (not the same) one in Switzerland in 2014?

And would you give your thoughts on the advantages of representative vs direct democracy and vice-versa?
Noetic wrote:A part of me almost wishes that the UK leaving will utterly destroy the economy and health system here because it's probably the only way the ignorant masses will comprehend just how stupid they've been.
Wow, with such a damning assessment, why did you opt to apply for British citizenship?
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

noajthan
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Re: Is it a potential mistake?

Post by noajthan » Sat Jun 11, 2016 3:32 pm

Noetic wrote:A part of me almost wishes that the UK leaving will utterly destroy the economy and health system here because it's probably the only way the ignorant masses will comprehend just how stupid they've been.
"Y'know, Grady, some people think I'm 'overprepared.' 'Paranoid.' Maybe even a little 'crazy.' But they never met any precambrian life forms, did they?"
Burt Gummer, Tremors 2: Aftershocks

I'm prepared! I have me this bowie knife, tinfoil hat, good old two-barrelled Betsy and a year's supply of food and water :wink:
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

Noetic
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Re: Is it a potential mistake?

Post by Noetic » Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:36 pm

noajthan wrote: "Y'know, Grady, some people think I'm 'overprepared.' 'Paranoid.' Maybe even a little 'crazy.' But they never met any precambrian life forms, did they?"
Burt Gummer, Tremors 2: Aftershocks

I'm prepared! I have me this bowie knife, tinfoil hat, good old two-barrelled Betsy and a year's supply of food and water :wink:
Y'know, I knew I should have bought a house that's somewhere remote rather than in a lovely old village location ;)

Noetic
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Re: Is it a potential mistake?

Post by Noetic » Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:45 pm

secret.simon wrote: Wow, with such a damning assessment, why did you opt to apply for British citizenship?
Well I know the Swiss people are just as close minded and dearly beloved as people here. And I've spent all my adult life here. And it is just a very small part of me that feels this way - Like I said though I know the Swiss are just as narrow minded, foreigner hating and petty if not more so. (Looking at some of the rural Kantons who still resent giving women the vote etc)

The difference with the Swiss referendum is that anyone who can get enough signatures can force a national referendum in Switzerland, no matter how dearly beloved, insane or vaguely formulated it is. I can't say I'm a huge fan of this (and generally will never vote in support of any unformulated proposals because they're usually evidence of badly thought through knee jerk sentiments).

I feel local decisions like choosing between different alternatives of bypass solutions are much better areas to put to the popular vote than irreversible (at least for several decades) complex foreign policy decisions that will have a devastating and long lasting impact on the country's economy, trade, health system, international relations (and that of the rest of too).

secret.simon
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Re: Is it a potential mistake?

Post by secret.simon » Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:24 pm

I will attempt to answer the core question of this thread-whether having a referendum on an issue as complex as our relationship with the EU is a mistake or not-by giving the background to the entire question. That should help guide the direction of thought.

There are three key events in the past quarter century and one element that have brought us to this point.

a) The Maastricht Treaty - The Treaty on European Union was signed in Maastricht in 1992. It created the European Union by merging the European Communities (the EEC, EURATOM and the European Coal and Steel Community). It also created the concept of Union citizenship and freedom of movement for citizens-till then, freedom of movement was mainly restricted to workers. It also had a Social Chapter, which the UK had opted out of, but which Tony Blair's government promptly opted into. It is such an important treaty that all subsequent treaties have been amendments to it and the Treaty of Rome (TFEU).
The passage of the law enacting the Maastricht Treaty into UK law was so divisive in the Conservative Party that it practically destroyed it for the next 20 years. The Conservatives would not get a majority again till 2015. Even now, the main Eurosceptics such as IDS and John Whittingdale are the ones who had been Eurosceptic in the 1990s.
There are still bitter memories of how this issue of Europe lost the Conservatives the next four elections. I doubt they would want to repeat the experience. Much better to let the issue be decided outside the party.

b) The A8 accession - The Maastricht Treaty had moved what was an economic union/Single Market in the direction of a political union. And the EU started admitting members to make a political statement rather than for purely economic reasons. The Fall of the Berlin wall led to the joining of the three neutral countries of Austria, Sweden and Finland. But it also gave the EU the chance to be truly European by welcoming the former Warsaw Pact countries in 2004, with the A8 joining the EU along with Cyprus and Malta.
The then British government of Tony Blair did not expect a lot of migrants and so did not put any restrictions on A8 citizens, as say Germany did. The scale of the ensuing migration can be gauged from the fact that Polish went from being a language being rarely spoken in the UK in 2001 to the second most spoken language, being more than the third and fourth combined in 2011. That is a seismic shock to the country's population and culture. As a parallel, the rise of Hindi-Urdu and Punjabi, the third and fourth languages, took a few decades. And that was just Polish. That does not take into account other people from the A8 countries.
People had started to talk about this issue since 2007-8. But it was seen as politically incorrect for the politicians to respond to such issues. This was epitomised by the Gillian Duffy incident in the 2010 Election.

c) Loss of trust-the expenses scandal in 2009 - The expenses scandal destroyed a significant chunk of the people's trust and confidence in their elected MPs. Now everything that they did, not just their expenses, were suspect. If they took any decision on the EU, it would be suspect as well.
The OP referred to "mature informed decision". By definition, the only people who would have the time and inclination to look into these issues would have to be members of the "elite". Given that they are looked down upon as well, who would take a "mature informed decision"?

d) The complexity of the EU - The average person does not appreciate just how complex the EU is. I will give two examples.
During a conversation with an official of the European Scrutiny Committee (ESC) in the House of Commons, I learnt that the ESC receives about 5000 pieces of documents a year from Brussels. These documents range from letters asking for opinions to detailed directives and regulations. To put it in perspective, 5000 a year is roughly one every two hours of every single day of the year. That is after considering that the UK is not a part of the Eurozone, not a part of Schengen and has opted out of most of the Justice and Home Affairs pillar.
Switzerland's relationship with the EU is quite unusual in that it is based on a series of bilateral treaties. There are 7 core treaties that govern the relationship between the two. But further legislation must be implemented by new treaties. By 2010, Switzerland has accumulated 210 treaties with the EU. The EU has imposed a moratorium on further treaties with Switzerland as it wants a more efficient way to apply EU laws to Switzerland.

Now, with this background, can you see why having this referendum was inevitable?
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

sebseb
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Re: Is it a potential mistake?

Post by sebseb » Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:42 pm

Just a quick one, if one thinks the UK parliament expenses scandal is horrendous, the EU haven't been independently audited for over 20 years, god knows when that could happen, if ever.

secret.simon
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Re: Is it a potential mistake?

Post by secret.simon » Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:57 pm

Jonathan Portes looks at the OP's question in a slightly different way; are referendums the best way to deal with an issue with more than two options?

It is called the Condorcet paradox and can be summed up as people may prefer A more than B and B more than C, but they may also prefer C more than A (kind of like scissors, paper and rock).

In this referendum, there is also a third option that is unspoken and that not everybody is clear about; becoming a member of the EFTA outside the EU, but remaining in the EEA. If you factor in this third option, suddenly the whole referendum debate gets fuzzy and confusing.

Oh, what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practice to deceive!
I am not a lawyer or immigration advisor. My statements/comments do not constitute legal advice. E&OE. Please do not PM me for advice.

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