EEA PR Application Form - Some quick questions b4 submitting

[dmuk]

(Apologies in advance for the questions but being overwhelmed by UKVI documents.)

My wife and I are both EU passport holders who have lived and worked in the UK since early 2000.

Our intention is to apply for naturalisation however first need to attain our permanent residency (EEA PR).

We have both lived in the UK with no absences. We have both worked although my wife did study in the UK for a period of time; and is now self employed. Hoping this should be a simple case?!

1) Application Form

Can we submit a single application form and list one of us as another EEA family member?

2) Sponsor

Is this required? If so, can one of us act as sponsor.

3) European Health Insurance Card (EHIC)

We hold these cards however note that some applications may be rejected if you did not hold these cards. Is there any clear guidance on this?

4) Passports

How long can we expect to be without passports? Is there anyway to request these back early?

5) Supporting Documentation

Can photocopies be supplied? Do these need to be certified? How much do you need to provide to cover the years?

For example: council tax bills, utility bills for each year etc

6) Naturalisation

Once we receive our PR can we go onto applying for naturalisation immediately? My understanding we exceed the 5 + 1 year rule.

[noajthan]

(Apologies in advance for the questions but being overwhelmed by UKVI documents.)

My wife and I are both EU passport holders who have lived and worked in the UK since early 2000.

Our intention is to apply for naturalisation however first need to attain our permanent residency (EEA PR).

We have both lived in the UK with no absences. We have both worked although my wife did study in the UK for a period of time; and is now self employed. Hoping this should be a simple case?!

1) Application Form

Can we submit a single application form and list one of us as another EEA family member?

2) Sponsor

Is this required? If so, can one of us act as sponsor.

3) European Health Insurance Card (EHIC)

We hold these cards however note that some applications may be rejected if you did not hold these cards. Is there any clear guidance on this?

4) Passports

How long can we expect to be without passports? Is there anyway to request these back early?

5) Supporting Documentation

Can photocopies be supplied? Do these need to be certified? How much do you need to provide to cover the years?

For example: council tax bills, utility bills for each year etc

6) Naturalisation

Once we receive our PR can we go onto applying for naturalisation immediately? My understanding we exceed the 5 + 1 year rule.

1) Yes

2) No

3) Foreign EHIC (or CSI) needed for student.
If wife is your dependent her activity (including carefree student years) are immaterial so CSI/EHIC is irrelevant.

4) Months and months.
Yes.
Or send European id cards.

5) Send originals.
Masses of rock-solid evidence required to cover:

• your identities;
  relationship;
  both - residence in UK;
  qualified person: exercise of treaty rights

Don't give HO the Spam of 'wriggle room' and the satisfaction of a refusal.

6) Yes, if you can show PR was acquired over a year ago.
And assuming all requirements for privilege of citizenship have been/can be met - have you checked?

[dmuk]

Thanks for the quick reply.

2) Re - sponsorship - I am reading your response to mean: we do not need to complete the sponsorship information as we are both EEA?

4) We are stuffed without our passports. Work and holidays. I know we can submit a chaser. Sending the application form without passports is destined to fail. Options?

5) Bulk of documents are electronic documents but we can provide originals where we have them. By 'exercise of treaty rights' you mean living/working/etc?

6) When you mean PR, do you mean 'exercised right' or actual EEA PR?

[noajthan]

Thanks for the quick reply.

2) Re - sponsorship - I am reading your response to mean: we do not need to complete the sponsorship information as we are both EEA?

4) We are stuffed without our passports. Work and holidays. I know we can submit a chaser. Sending the application form without passports is destined to fail. Options?

5) Bulk of documents are electronic documents but we can provide originals where we have them. By 'exercise of treaty rights' you mean living/working/etc?

6) When you mean PR, do you mean 'exercised right' or actual EEA PR?

2) Yes, that's it.

4) You have to establish identity.
You can submit European id cards in lieu of passports (if you have them).
Or you can request documents (including passports) to be returned after a few weeks of filing the bundle.

5) Not living. Working etc. See:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _clean.pdf

Electronic documents are tricky (for HO) as apparently they can be manipulated.
So get bank statements stamped in bank branch etc.

6) No, not the PR card (although that's still, regrettably, a common caseworker misunderstanding and still an occasional reason for mistaken refusal of naturalisation);
I mean the PR or settled status; the card is a mere confirmatory document that could (for some people) be issued years later.

[dmuk]

Thanks again.

5) Ok. Let's see how we go once we submit the application. If we didn't have passports for more than 3-4 weeks this would be an issue.

6) Unfortunately I am hearing this quite a bit. I wonder if a cover letter pointing out the wording in the guidance notes would help.

[dmuk]

I've run into some confusion with our situation. It's proved a little more complicated than we initially thought.

I'm an EU passport holder that has worked and lived in the UK indefinitely for 10 years. No perceived issues.

My wife is a EU passport holder however has mixed timelines in the UK.
+ Lived indefinitely in the UK for 12 years.
+ Worked for the first 6 years (did not submit tax returns for all periods due to income being under threshold but can prove income).
+ Studied at year 7 for 1 year in the UK. Did not hold insurance (or at least no evidence of it).
+ Worked from year 8 to year 11.
+ Maternity leave.
+ Year 12 is self employed (still to submit first tax return but has evidence of income and contracts).

Q.
Some say we should submit a single EEA PR application with my wife recorded as a family member. Others say two separate EEA PR forms. What is correct?

Q.
How is my wife's 5 years calculated?
Will lack of heath insurance and maternity leave discount her settlement date?

Q.
How will her timings impact our naturalisation application? Will we need to wait to submit our application - when would her settlement date start?

Q.
Given our timelines and cost, we are considering paying an agent for everything. Any views on such an approach?

Thanks in advance!

[dmuk]

>> Thank you. Am I right to assume (hope) that the children don't need it?

No, British people (adult or child) play no part in this EU process; neither as sponsor or dependent.

Do you mind clarifying this as I am in a similar boat. If the family member (spouse) is applying for permanent residency as a dependent (rather than directly as a EEA qualified person) - do they need to prove they hold or have ever held CSI?

In this thread, does the Romanian passport holder need to have held CSI to qualify under the 5 years; or they simply qualify by being dependent on the British citizen?

(Sorry if this feels like hijacking )

[Petaltop]

>> Thank you. Am I right to assume (hope) that the children don't need it?

No, British people (adult or child) play no part in this EU process; neither as sponsor or dependent.

Do you mind clarifying this as I am in a similar boat. If the family member (spouse) is applying for permanent residency as a dependent (rather than directly as a EEA qualified person) - do they need to prove they hold or have ever held CSI?

In this thread, does the Romanian passport holder need to have held CSI to qualify under the 5 years; or they simply qualify by being dependent on the British citizen?

(Sorry if this feels like hijacking )

An EEA citizen needs to be exercising treaty rights at all times to have a right to reside in another EEA country. Being married to a citizen of that country is not exercising their treaty rights.

If that EEA citizen is a married to another EEA citizen, then just one can exercise treaty rights and the other can be their family member and not have to exercise treaty rights themselves.

If they enter the UK on a UK spouse visa, then there is no need for them to exercise treaty rights as they are under UK laws instead of EU laws. They have been sponsored by their spouse for a UK visa.

[noajthan]

>> Thank you. Am I right to assume (hope) that the children don't need it?

No, British people (adult or child) play no part in this EU process; neither as sponsor or dependent.

Do you mind clarifying this as I am in a similar boat. If the family member (spouse) is applying for permanent residency as a dependent (rather than directly as a EEA qualified person) - do they need to prove they hold or have ever held CSI?

In this thread, does the Romanian passport holder need to have held CSI to qualify under the 5 years; or they simply qualify by being dependent on the British citizen?

...

Yes, they do as (in this case) they have to apply their own right.
They have no potential sponsor as a BC cannot (except in special circumstances) help them as a sponsor.

[dmuk]

Thanks for the clarity.

To confirm, this example is specifically regarding an EEA national married to a British Citizen.

The rules are different for an EEA national married to an EEA national?

[noajthan]

Thanks for the clarity.

To confirm, this example is specifically regarding an EEA national married to a British Citizen.

The rules are different for an EEA national married to an EEA national?

Correct.
Yes, they are very very very different.

[noajthan]

I've run into some confusion with our situation. It's proved a little more complicated than we initially thought.

I'm an EU passport holder that has worked and lived in the UK indefinitely for 10 years. No perceived issues.
...

Q.
Some say we should submit a single EEA PR application with my wife recorded as a family member. Others say two separate EEA PR forms. What is correct?

Q.
How is my wife's 5 years calculated?
Will lack of heath insurance and maternity leave discount her settlement date?

Q.
How will her timings impact our naturalisation application? Will we need to wait to submit our application - when would her settlement date start?

Q.
Given our timelines and cost, we are considering paying an agent for everything. Any views on such an approach?

Thanks in advance!

1) Neither is 'correct', you can apply on 1 form or 2.
You may apply together (even on 2 forms); wife as your dependent.

2) Same 5 years as yours assuming you were in country at same time.

Yes, lack of CSI stops wife's own PR clock.

3) Apply together. You will have to wait 12 months unless PR was acquired over 1 year ago.

4) You seem literate and fluent and reasonably organised. What could an agent do that you cannot?

[dmuk]

4) You seem literate and fluent and reasonably organised. What could an agent do that you cannot?

I was hoping an agent would have a clearer understanding of the laws/regulations; and experience with submitting such applications. A chance of the application being more successful. Maybe not?

At the moment I am still unsure of my wife's eligibility. My initial questions were working on the basis she would apply as an EEA national but I in light of CSI questions I am now thinking as having her apply as a dependent....

If she applies as an EEA national - she could evidence her first 5 years in the UK and ignore the potential awkward period. You apparently just need to evidence any 5 year period (?). This is based on below from the EEA PR guidance and conversation with the Visa helpline. This would drive the settlement start date.

If you’re applying on the basis of 5 years’ continuous residence, the evidence must cover the 5-
year period. The documents should be spread evenly throughout the 5 years and come from a
variety of sources. We recommend you submit at least 2 documents for each year of residence.

If she applies as my dependent - under this approach we would just have the choice to provide evidence we have been living together for the past 5 years.

If you’re applying as the current spouse or civil partner of an EEA national (or of a British citizen, if
you’re applying under the Surinder Singh route), you do not have to prove you have been living
together but it will assist your application if you do.

3) Apply together. You will have to wait 12 months unless PR was acquired over 1 year ago.

On the basis of the above, where would our PR start date (for naturalisation) commence? We would ideally want to apply for naturalisation as soon as we can...

Maybe I'm overthinking this all?

[noajthan]

4) You seem literate and fluent and reasonably organised. What could an agent do that you cannot?

I was hoping an agent would have a clearer understanding of the laws/regulations; and experience with submitting such applications. A chance of the application being more successful. Maybe not?

At the moment I am still unsure of my wife's eligibility. My initial questions were working on the basis she would apply as an EEA national but I in light of CSI questions I am now thinking as having her apply as a dependent....

If she applies as an EEA national - she could evidence her first 5 years in the UK and ignore the potential awkward period. You apparently just need to evidence any 5 year period (?). This is based on below from the EEA PR guidance and conversation with the Visa helpline. This would drive the settlement start date.

...

If she applies as my dependent - under this approach we would just have the choice to provide evidence we have been living together for the past 5 years.

...

3) Apply together. You will have to wait 12 months unless PR was acquired over 1 year ago.

On the basis of the above, where would our PR start date (for naturalisation) commence? We would ideally want to apply for naturalisation as soon as we can...

Maybe I'm overthinking this all?

I'd say there's not necessarily a positive correlation between agents and success.

There's agents and agents. Choose a Law Society regulated solicitor or OISC-licensed advisor.
That still doesn't guarantee intimacy with EU law. So ask questions.

But you should be able to manage this.

Yes, you're overthinking but you're the one with skin in the game. So its understandable.

If wife's income in those early years was patchy then applying in her own right may be risky.
HO goes above and beyond the cleaner, purer EU law by applying its PET/MET test, see:
https://www.freemovement.org.uk/using-m ... ne-worker/

Even when applying together you can use any period (not just last 5 years).
So choose any period in which you were both in country (not even cohabiting) and sponsor was a qualified person; (dependent just has to reside).

As wife has been here since 2004(?) and you since 2006(?), how about from 2006-2011 or thereabouts?
You need to have been married (to each other) throughout the 5 year period too.

Just choose a period where you as sponsor have rock-solid evidence of treaty rights.
You both have to prove residency ofcourse;
and your identities and your relationship;
(also absences kept within limits).

If you did acquire PR in 2011 (or maybe 2012) then you could have applied to naturalise in 2012(/2013).
So what are you waiting for?

[dmuk]

Thanks noajthan very much for the prompt and informative responses (and your patience). You've helped me clarify my thinking on this application.

Based on the above and my interpretation of your responses, I think this is the way forward - shout if I've got this wrong.

..

We apply together - me as the sponsor (and main applicant) and my wife as dependent.

We select a 5 year period where we were both in the country - 2006 to 2011.

I provide evidence of my work history, residency. (Bank statements, pay slips, contracts, tax docs, utility bills.)

She provides evidence of her residency as a dependent (Utility bills, bank statements).

She may supply evidence of her employment and income for these periods however this may create more questions than answers? (Pay slips, contracts, tax docs, utility bills.)

We provide proof of our relationship. (Marriage certificate, cohabitation - shared address etc.)

Assuming our PR application is accepted, our naturalisation would be around 2012. This allows us to proceed with our naturalisation application immediately?

They don't make these things easy!

[noajthan]

Thanks noajthan very much for the prompt and informative responses (and your patience). You've helped me clarify my thinking on this application.

Based on the above and my interpretation of your responses, I think this is the way forward - shout if I've got this wrong.

..

We apply together - me as the sponsor (and main applicant) and my wife as dependent.

We select a 5 year period where we were both in the country - 2006 to 2011.

I provide evidence of my work history, residency. (Bank statements, pay slips, contracts, tax docs, utility bills.)

She provides evidence of her residency as a dependent (Utility bills, bank statements).

She may supply evidence of her employment and income for these periods however this may create more questions than answers? (Pay slips, contracts, tax docs, utility bills.)

We provide proof of our relationship. (Marriage certificate, cohabitation - shared address etc.)

Assuming our PR application is accepted, our naturalisation would be around 2012. This allows us to proceed with our naturalisation application immediately?

They don't make these things easy!

Yes, think you're almost there.
Makes you feel alive and 'living on the edge', doesn't it, applying for confirmation of PR.

Were you married throughout 2006-2011?

Don't send wife's papers as proof of work. Its immaterial.
- if its for proof of residency that's fine.

Don't forget proof of identity too.

Yes, with such historical PR you can apply to naturalise as soon as naturalisation requirements have been/can be met.
Suggest checking them out: forewarned is forearmed.

[dmuk]

Were you married throughout 2006-2011?

Don't send wife's papers as proof of work. Its immaterial.
- if its for proof of residency that's fine.

Don't forget proof of identity too.

Married after that period but cohabiting within that period. As long as we can prove the relationship we're okay?

We will include her passport in the envelope. I'll need to re-read over the document checklist.

Thanks again!

Yes, with such historical PR you can apply to naturalise as soon as naturalisation requirements have been/can be met.
Suggest checking them out: forewarned is forearmed.

This probably needs it's own thread but I believe we meet the requirements. The sticking point would be the PR and the determined settlement date. If it is the earliest date we are fine (2006). If any date after that (2012+) we are in trouble. ?!

[noajthan]

Were you married throughout 2006-2011?

Don't send wife's papers as proof of work. Its immaterial.
- if its for proof of residency that's fine.

Don't forget proof of identity too.

Married after that period but cohabiting within that period. As long as we can prove the relationship we're okay?

We will include her passport in the envelope. I'll need to re-read over the document checklist.

Thanks again!

Yes, with such historical PR you can apply to naturalise as soon as naturalisation requirements have been/can be met.
Suggest checking them out: forewarned is forearmed.

This probably needs it's own thread but I believe we meet the requirements. The sticking point would be the PR and the determined settlement date. If it is the earliest date we are fine (2006). If any date after that (2012+) we are in trouble.

Unmarried - no that's no good

if unmarried then dependent needs to have held an EFM RC on the basis of durable relationship with you.
Did wife have such an EFM RC
No EFM RC - no confirmation of PR.

Choose another period in which you have been married 5 years.

Not sure what you mean by date after that (2012+).
if you had acquired PR even as late as June 2015 you could still apply to naturalise now.

[dmuk]

Unmarried - no that's no good

if unmarried then dependent needs to have held an EFM RC on the basis of durable relationship with you.
Did wife have such an EFM RC
No EFM RC - no confirmation of PR.

Choose another period in which you have been married 5 years.

Not sure what you mean by date after that (2012+).
if you had acquired PR even as late as June 2015 you could still apply to naturalise now.

She only ever held her EU passport. We haven't been married for 5 years. We can certainty prove cohabitation (for many years prior to marriage) but I take it that is unlikely to satisfy the Home Office. We didn't have any joint accounts etc which probably sinks that ship.

We can go back the last 5 years (now less 5 years) but then we have the other challenge of proving health cover.

The question on naturalisation is that we are keen to start the naturalisation process immediately. If it is based on our first entry 2005/06 then perfect. That seems to hang in the balance of how we attain the formal PR.

The system seems ludicrous but I guess 'it is, what it is'. Given the amount of doubt on a successful application I think we may just leave it and take the gamble on the outcome of the current brexit discussions.

EDIT:
Unsure if this is relevant...
eea-route-applications/unmarried-partne ... 03285.html

[noajthan]

She only ever held her EU passport. We haven't been married for 5 years. We can certainty prove cohabitation (for many years prior to marriage) but I take it that is unlikely to satisfy the Home Office. We didn't have any joint accounts etc which probably sinks that ship.

We can go back the last 5 years (now less 5 years) but then we have the other challenge of proving health cover.

The question on naturalisation is that we are keen to start the naturalisation process immediately. If it is based on our first entry 2005/06 then perfect. That seems to hang in the balance of how we attain the formal PR.

The system seems ludicrous but I guess 'it is, what it is'. Given the amount of doubt on a successful application I think we may just leave it and take the gamble on the outcome of the current brexit discussions.

EDIT:
Unsure if this is relevant...
eea-route-applications/unmarried-partne ... 03285.html

Ofcourse an unmarried partner can progress through the system if they understand they are an unmarried partner and can prove a relationship akin to marriage of 2 years or more before applying for their EFM RC (sponsored by their EEA partner).

So if you were unmarried partners did partner(-now-wife) have an EFM RC?
if not she cannot apply for confirmation of PR as an unmarried partner.

Have you been married 5 years yet?
If not wife cannot apply as a direct family member until she has served her 5 years.
You can go ahead ofcourse with the DCPR.

Not sure about the worry over insurance. No dependent has to exercise treaty rights so no dependent needs CSI unless their sponsor is a student/self-sufficient.

Why is the system ludicrous?
Its just binary, meet requirements: pass
And its a walk in the park compared to what a UK citizen with non-EEA spouse/family has to go through.
(EU route has no financial requirements, no language nor LITUK elements to worry about and the fees are, laughably, cheap as chips).

If there are going to be any transitional arrangements to protect the thousands of EEA people currently 'in flight' then you will probably both need all the EU documentation you can get.
This is speculation but transitional arrangements in the past have usually depended on someone holding document X by cut-off date Y.

[dmuk]

Apologies if this is going round in circles. I appreciate your patience. Maybe it's terminology I'm stuck on here (EFM RC v EEA PR v EEA QP).

Our end game is applying for naturalisation as soon as we can. The application requirement is holding permanent residency.

So is the conclusion here that I apply for EEA PR?
My wife applies for PR as an 'unmarried partner'? She needs to prove our relationship and residency?
If successful we both receive permanent residency?
We can then proceed immediately with our naturalisation application.

[noajthan]

Apologies if this is going round in circles. I appreciate your patience. Maybe it's terminology I'm stuck on here (EFM RC v EEA PR v EEA QP).

Our end game is applying for naturalisation as soon as we can. The application requirement is holding permanent residency.

So is the conclusion here that I apply for EEA PR?
My wife applies for PR as an 'unmarried partner'? She needs to prove our relationship and residency?
If successful we both receive permanent residency?
We can then proceed immediately with our naturalisation application.

I understand your goal.
You can go ahead for your DCPR.

Do not naturalise yet as when you do you won't be able to sponsor wife anymore. That's UK law even before Brexit.

If your wife did not have an RC as an EFM (unmarried partner) then its too late; she can't use any past time as an EFM (before you married) to count towards her PR.
And she can't apply (for DCPR) with you now (as your spouse) as you haven't been married for 5 years.

So she better get a FM RC now (for future security) and carry on being sponsored by you until she has 5 years in UK as spouse of you, her EEA sponsor.
Depending when Brexit actuallly occurs (and how long you have actually been married) there may not be time for all this to work out.

Ofcourse if final UK exit becomes imminent you'll have to decide whether to stop sponsoring wife and shoot for your citizenship at least.

In that case, wife with her RC (to invoke any transitional arrangements) will have to rely on the British sense of fair play to see her through (as will thousands of others).

[dmuk]

Thanks again noajthan. You've been extremely helpful and appreciate all the responses. I think we can now rule out her applying as a family member as the timing doesn't work.

That leaves us with finding a clean 5 year period for which she could apply in her own right. This may well be challenged by the HO and is deemed risky (but not impossible).

As she has a clean'ish 5 year period when she first arrived I think we will need to take a gamble and proceed on that basis. We will submit two separate EEA PR (in same envelope). We will source evidence to prove her residency, work and income during her first 5 years in the UK. We will ignore any periods post this unless asked.

Then in terms of naturalisation our PR dates would be effective from when we first entered the UK.

Failing all of the above we need to hope Prime Minister Johnson takes pity on the thousands of EU nationals working out how they re-enter the UK post formal brexit!

[noajthan]

That leaves us with finding a clean 5 year period for which she could apply in her own right. This may well be challenged by the HO and is deemed risky (but not impossible).

As she has a clean'ish 5 year period when she first arrived I think we will need to take a gamble and proceed on that basis. We will submit two separate EEA PR (in same envelope). We will source evidence to prove her residency, work and income during her first 5 years in the UK. We will ignore any periods post this unless asked.

Then in terms of naturalisation our PR dates would be effective from when we first entered the UK.

...

Check that period against PET/MET test (linked above).

Workers on maternity leave can retain worker status so if income was robust at this time it may be another option.

Worked from year 8 to year 11.
+ Maternity leave

Your PR acquisition date will be the date at the end of a qualifying 5 year period (not at the beginning).