FLR(FP) rejection

[jane2018]

My FLR(FP) as a spouse of UK citizen application was rejected. I was given a right to appeal. Home Office gave the following reasons: wrong visa(I came from the USA directly as a visitor) and no exceptions are applicable to me. I am so upset and devastated! It is unreasonable and unfair. I married to UK citizen husband, we have been married for over 10(!) years. We have 2 minor UK citizen chidren who go to school here in UK. I did not break any immigration law or any other law. My husband has a very well paid job and we bought an expensive house in our joint names. We showed plenty of money in the bank accounts, bills/mails with our names. I hold several degrees from reputable Universities. I showed the letter from the school that my children attend and one letter from the doctor's office sent with respect to the children. Home Office stated that because I failed to provide a document from an official sourse to show that you and you dependant children live with you, thus, the exceptions which are normally provided for parents of minor children do not apply to me and basically they presume that my children live somewhere else. Where? Me and my husband are not divorced and proved living together. Even Home Office admitted that me and my husband "have a genuine and subsisting relationship". It is absurd beyond belief. By the way, it took them over a year to make a decision. Could you imagine that? I was never treated so badly before in my entire life.
I do not want to leave UK and leave my kids behind just for the sake of spouse visa. I cannot take kids with me because it would be an interruption in the school education. I cannot imagine spending even a day, let alone several months without my kids. Home Office does not see it as a problem. I understand they have no obligations to me but what about UK citizen children and my UK citizen husband.. it is so so bad.
I know that I have to appeal now, I am going to see a barrister tomorrow, I know it is going to be another year or more of uncertainty and embarassment, that again I will be ready to break into tears when my former colleagues ask me about my job, which of course I cannot get because I do not have a work permit. All of these feelings of being underhuman for no reason at all... I cannot imagine anything like that in the USA!

[Casa]

You should have been aware when you entered as a visitor that you couldn't by-pass the Immigration Rules and apply to remain from within the UK. You were required to submit a Spouse Settlement visa from your home country and meet all the relevant conditions.

It's not permitted to switch to any other visa category while in the UK as a visitor.

Unfortunately, this is why so many visitor visa applications are refused.

Which category of FLR(FP) application did you submit? Parent or Partner route Are you aware that these are both 10 year routes to settlement (ILR) and that you have no free access to NHS facilities?

[jane2018]

No, I was not aware that I need a spouse visa. I read the rules but nowhere it was stated that I must have a spouse visa. Obviously I would have applied for that visa, considering that I can easily meet its requiremenst. In fact Home Office change the guidelines in April 2017 and now it is clear that you must have a spouse visa(long term visa). Previously that requirement was hidden in some footnotes somewhere in the end of some not very relevant stuff. Many people like me fell for that. My only problem is that I cannot leave my kids, otherwise I would have gone home and reapplied.
Anyway, it is ok to punish me for bad reading of the rules but what abaout kids? what abaout my husband? our whole family is depressed because of that.
My solicitor told me that I can apply for 5 year route immediately after the grant of 10 year route. After payment of NHS fee you are allowed to use NHS without payment. I have a very good private insurance anyway. In the USA all meds are private and much more expensive than in the UK.

[Casa]

No, I was not aware that I need a spouse visa. I read the rules but nowhere it was stated that I must have a spouse visa. Obviously I would have applied for that visa, considering that I can easily meet its requiremenst. In fact Home Office change the guidelines in April 2017 and now it is clear that you must have a spouse visa(long term visa). Previously that requirement was hidden in some footnotes somewhere in the end of some not very relevant stuff. Many people like me fell for that. My only problem is that I cannot leave my kids, otherwise I would have gone home and reapplied.
Anyway, it is ok to punish me for bad reading of the rules but what abaout kids? what abaout my husband? our whole family is depressed because of that.

The non-switching Rules for visitors have been in place for a considerable number of years, in fact well before there were major amendments in July 2012.

However, back to the immediate issue; under which category of FLR(FP) did you apply? FLR(FP) Parent or Partner route. This may be the crux of the initial refusal

[CR001]

After payment of NHS fee you are allowed to use NHS without payment.

No, not while you have an application pending and still considered a 'visitor'. You only get to use the NHS for free once you have been granted a visa other than a visitor visa.

[jane2018]

I did not read the rules until I decided to relocate to the UK. I have no idea as to when the rules were introduced. USA citizens do not need visa to enter the UK. They stamp your passport with 6 month leave at the border without asking questions (that's why I fell for that).
I applied as a spouse (partner) of UK citizen because I married. It is expressly stated in the FLR(FP)application that you cannot apply as a parent if you married to the UK citizen.

[jane2018]

With respect to NHS payment. My rejection letter from Home Office states some threats to me that if I do not file an appeal I can be deported, detained, prosecuted etc AND CAN BE CHARGED BY NHS for medical treatment, if I do not file an appeal the Immigration Health Surcharge will be refunded.
My solicitor confirmed that since the moment I paid Surcharge of £500 I am allowed to use NHS.

[CR001]

Given that you have been so ill advised by your solicitor already regarding your FLR(FP) application, I would take his advise regarding the NHS fee paid which is mandatory with ANY visa application (not visitor visa which you had) with a pinch of salt. You are an overstayer with no legal status in terms of immigration.

The NHS should charge you at 150% of cost.

HO isn't 'threatening' you and it is also not 'unfair and unreasonable'. They are following the rules, which you are not, unfortunately, exempt from simply due to being married to a British citzen. We have all had to follow the rules in order to live in the UK as foreigners.

[Amelia4784]

Hi jane2018

From my point of view I came as a visitor on January 2017 with my partner and our daughter unfortunately my partner got diagnosed with multiple sclerosis on November 2016 an as it is an incurable illness he just wanted to be back with his parents so we came and I was meant to go back and return but he got even a worse relapse and a lawyer advice me to apply from here for a flr fp so i did in July and home office refused 2 weeks ago they didn’t take that long 3 months and a half for us we have no other option than an appeal as I care for him and our daughter and I do believe I have a strong case even though I believe the appeal might take up to a year but if I had all the requirements I would definetly applied from my country is faster It can take up to 2 months in the worst case while in England it will take you another year Anyway I keep you posted with my appeal, let us know what you did !! All the best .

[jane2018]

Given that you have been so ill advised by your solicitor already regarding your FLR(FP) application, I would take his advise regarding the NHS fee paid which is mandatory with ANY visa application (not visitor visa which you had) with a pinch of salt. You are an overstayer with no legal status in terms of immigration.

The NHS should charge you at 150% of cost.

HO isn't 'threatening' you and it is also not 'unfair and unreasonable'. They are following the rules, which you are not, unfortunately, exempt from simply due to being married to a British citzen. We have all had to follow the rules in order to live in the UK as foreigners.

Rule says:
1. an applicant who applied 28 days before expiration of his/hers immigration status keeps that status until Home Office decide your application +14 days after+if file appeal/review/new application during all that time as well.
2. As soon you paid NHS surcharge you are permitted to use NHS until and unless Home Office refunds you that surcharge in case if application is rejected and appeal is not taken.

Who said that I did not follow the rules? May be you are not aware but UK must follow Human Rights laws which protect family rights e.g. Article 8 under which FLR(FP)applications are developed for exactly the difficult situations to prevent separation of family members. Especially mother and minor UK citizen children.

[jane2018]

Hi jane2018

From my point of view I came as a visitor on January 2017 with my partner and our daughter unfortunately my partner got diagnosed with multiple sclerosis on November 2016 an as it is an incurable illness he just wanted to be back with his parents so we came and I was meant to go back and return but he got even a worse relapse and a lawyer advice me to apply from here for a flr fp so i did in July and home office refused 2 weeks ago they didn’t take that long 3 months and a half for us we have no other option than an appeal as I care for him and our daughter and I do believe I have a strong case even though I believe the appeal might take up to a year but if I had all the requirements I would definetly applied from my country is faster It can take up to 2 months in the worst case while in England it will take you another year Anyway I keep you posted with my appeal, let us know what you did !! All the best .

Wow! After reading your story my refusal does not look so shoking)) My kids are really small, it would be extremely harmful for them if I leave them for 2 months. "But for" the kids, of course, I would have gone back and applied for spouse visa and FLR(M).
I really wish you to go through that hell. Good luck dear!

[Casa]

Given that you have been so ill advised by your solicitor already regarding your FLR(FP) application, I would take his advise regarding the NHS fee paid which is mandatory with ANY visa application (not visitor visa which you had) with a pinch of salt. You are an overstayer with no legal status in terms of immigration.

The NHS should charge you at 150% of cost.

HO isn't 'threatening' you and it is also not 'unfair and unreasonable'. They are following the rules, which you are not, unfortunately, exempt from simply due to being married to a British citzen. We have all had to follow the rules in order to live in the UK as foreigners.

Rule says:
1. an applicant who applied 28 days before expiration of his/hers immigration status keeps that status until Home Office decide your application +14 days after+if file appeal/review/new application during all that time as well.
2. As soon you paid NHS surcharge you are permitted to use NHS until and unless Home Office refunds you that surcharge in case if application is rejected and appeal is not taken.

Who said that I did not follow the rules? May be you are not aware but UK must follow Human Rights laws which protect family rights e.g. Article 8 under which FLR(FP)applications are developed for exactly the difficult situations to prevent separation of family members. Especially mother and minor UK citizen children.

You may have a misconception of Human Rights v The Immigration Rules
Note:
"Article 8 is not absolute. Human rights law recognises that people have the right to a family and private life, but also recognises that the state has the right to exercise immigration control"
AND
"It is worth remembering that having a British partner or child is not enough to be granted leave to remain in the UK. The Home Office do have to show that they have considered the "best interests" of the British child, but having a British child is not enough in itself to obtain leave to remain.

Sometimes, the Home Office will say the breach is proportionate (or even that there will not be a breach) because the British citizen or resident can go and live with the person being removed in their country, or they can keep in touch by Skype and email etc. Supporting evidence could be gathered to show why that would not work – why the British citizenship or leave to remain in the UK has to be in the UK, or why the relationship wouldn't work over the internet or through occasional visits."

https://righttoremain.org.uk/toolkit/humanrights.html

[Wise]

Casa, If i may ship into the topic. Honestly, sometime i don't know what this forum stand for!. It appears to me that some element in this forum do feed HO directly/indirectly what people discuss on this forum but many people don't realise this.

You shouldn't have said one is breaking the law when you yourself not part of those who make those stupid law to rip family apart and ask them to form relationship on skipe etc it's just ridiculous.

[Casa]

Casa, If i may ship into the topic. Honestly, sometime i don't know what this forum stand for!. It appears to me that some element in this forum do feed HO directly/indirectly what people discuss on this forum but many people don't realise this.

You shouldn't have said one is breaking the law when you yourself not part of those who make those stupid law to rip family apart and ask them to form relationship on skipe etc it's just ridiculous.

Would you care to quote where I mentioned the OP has broken the law?

I've done my best to set out the issues that are being faced here by providing relevant links to Article 8. It would be unfair to lead a member to believe that a FLR(FP) application will be an easy route to settlement. The lengthy timeline threads on the forum are an example of how bumpy a ride this may be.

[CR001]

Rule says:
1. an applicant who applied 28 days before expiration of his/hers immigration status keeps that status until Home Office decide your application +14 days after+if file appeal/review/new application during all that time as well.
2. As soon you paid NHS surcharge you are permitted to use NHS until and unless Home Office refunds you that surcharge in case if application is rejected and appeal is not taken.

Kindly provide the link to the Immigration Rules that state exactly this.

Bear in mind that your 'immigration status' even after submitting an application would have been one of a person on a 'visitor visa'.

[bathanza]

Technically, overstaying is breaking the law, so the HO can get anyone over this.

However, I wholly disagree with the notion of sustaining a relationship by means of modern technology. It's a contradiction that the state cannot interfere with a person's private life and matters (including marriage and children)which brings us to Article 8, offer the means to fill out the FLR FP form on a partner basis, fulfil all criteria and then get a rejection.

How on earth can you survive a relationship over skype, what if there are no means to skype, what about the innate human nature and physical aspect of BEING with your partner? Its incredibly inhumane.

The 10-year partner route can be used for those who have overstayed and have a particular circumstance which prevents them from leaving the country to apply aborad - a plethora of reasons.

I would find it difficult for the OP to leave her children just to get a spousal visa. It aggrieves me to see rejections when evidence has been submitted (hopefully clearly and carefully).

Good luck with the barrister meeting - keep us up to date and we are all keeping positive for you. Think of your evidence and look at all the reasons why going back to USA would cause you insurmountable obstacles for both you and your family to re-settle there. Rather than "we like it in the UK", look at all the ties you have in this country, as you said you own a home, your children, your careers, language, your relationships, family etc. The more private life ties the better for your appeal.

You can bring up the detrimental effect of the separation of a mother with their child which can cause untoward harm to your children, children separation anxiety (CSAS) that UKVI will inevitably will be causing. You do have a strong case and hope your representation will be able to help.

[CR001]

Technically, overstaying is breaking the law, so the HO can get anyone over this.

However, I wholly disagree with the notion of sustaining a relationship by means of modern technology. It's a contradiction that the state cannot interfere with a person's human right which brings us to Article 8, offer the means to fill out a FLR FP form on a partner basis, fulfil all criteria and then get a rejection.

How on earth can you survive a relationship over skype, what if there are no means to skype, what about the innate human nature and physical aspect of BEING with your partner? Its incredibly inhumane.

The 10 year partner route can be used for those who have overstayed and have a particular circumstance which prevents them from leaving the country to apply aborad - a plethora of reasons.

I would find it difficult for the OP to leave her children just to get a spousal visa. It aggrieves me to see rejections when evidence has been submitted (hopefully clearly and carefully).

Good luck with the barrister meeting - keep us up to date and we are all keeping positive for you.

Yes it is unfortunate but please, what would it be like if every spouse entered the UK as a visitor and thought it ok to change to another visa category while here (was possible many years ago but not anymore). This makes getting a visitor visa difficult for everyone else as HO immediately assumes everyone is trying to circumvent the immigration rules by avoiding the stricter spouse visa application from outside the UK. Many members on the forum have unfortunately tried the same and failed (a couple of US citizens have experienced this too with entering as a visitor/visa waiver traveler, one issued a deportation order after a 2 or 3 year fight with HO).

[Casa]

Note that I haven't said that I agree with the HO regarding maintaining a relationship with the use of modern technology or the unfairness in refusing a valid application.

However, as the saying goes "If you don't like the message, please don't shoot the messenger'.

[bathanza]

Technically, overstaying is breaking the law, so the HO can get anyone over this.

However, I wholly disagree with the notion of sustaining a relationship by means of modern technology. It's a contradiction that the state cannot interfere with a person's human right which brings us to Article 8, offer the means to fill out a FLR FP form on a partner basis, fulfil all criteria and then get a rejection.

How on earth can you survive a relationship over skype, what if there are no means to skype, what about the innate human nature and physical aspect of BEING with your partner? Its incredibly inhumane.

The 10 year partner route can be used for those who have overstayed and have a particular circumstance which prevents them from leaving the country to apply aborad - a plethora of reasons.

I would find it difficult for the OP to leave her children just to get a spousal visa. It aggrieves me to see rejections when evidence has been submitted (hopefully clearly and carefully).

Good luck with the barrister meeting - keep us up to date and we are all keeping positive for you.

Yes it is unfortunate but please, what would it be like if every spouse entered the UK as a visitor and thought it ok to change to another visa category while here (was possible many years ago but not anymore). This makes getting a visitor visa difficult for everyone else as HO immediately assumes everyone is trying to circumvent the immigration rules by avoiding the stricter spouse visa application from outside the UK. Many members on the forum have unfortunately tried the same and failed (a couple of US citizens have experienced this too with entering as a visitor/visa waiver traveler, one issued a deportation order after a 2 or 3 year fight with HO).

I completely agree with you when it comes to Visitor visa switches to Spousal - especially if it's within a year or two of their visit.

Visit visas are already tightened up and rejections are enormous - why anyone would want to overstay and live a life of misery, struggling with the hostile environment the HO and UKVI have implemented - restrictions on travel, banking, driving - it's a life of misery and no one would want to live that way - some people, unfortunately, are landed in a position where they have had exceptional circumstances and have no options to leave or to stay - to put their hand up and try to legalise their stay is an option.It's this element that should be considered and I do belive the UKVI have been lenient in cases when it comes to those with children.

Perhaps I've overlooked this - OP - when did you first enter the UK?

[bathanza]

Note that I haven't said that I agree with the HO regarding maintaining a relationship with the use of modern technology or the unfairness in refusing a valid application.

However, as the saying goes "If you don't like the message, please don't shoot the messenger'.

Bless - it's often difficult to find a tone when it comes to online forums - thank you for clarifying for us all. I am sure I speak on behalf of many that this forum has been pivotal in terms of support and guidance and is due to good admins and mods as yourselves. x

[Casa]

Jane2018 says her children are very small and I assume as the application has taken 12 months for a refusal, they haven't been living in the UK for a long period of time. In my honest opinion, returning to the US (where I assume they were born) for a relatively short period with their mother, wouldn't cause a great deal of disruption to their schooling if they are still at the Primary or Nursery school age.

[Wise]

Oh dear, please Casa i deeply apologise for my last comment. I just realised now that it was CR001 that said it and not you. Anyway this is not the first time you will be mismatch with her, really sorry.

Again, now to one of your reply. you said "if you don't like the message, you don't shoot the messenger". Surprisingly, you sound like a Politician. They make this rules but many of them were extremely corrupt until they're cut and expose. If you follow Politics enough you will agree with me. They are just like every other human in the street. MP pfffffff!.

However, i do not expect your mindset to be equal with the people you need to apply for residency from HO as possibly you're born here or finally settled. But your mindset will change if you become an immigrant and circumstance is beyond your control in any virgin land. British has been part of many trouble all over the world and this has make people to leave their country for a better life somewhere else. Funny enough, most countries don't treat British the way people were treated here and that is fact.

If the OP can look for good lawyer, i think good news will prevail. Many many worst cases have been granted in the past and it will still continue depending on who is representing the OP.

[Obie]

Jane will be fine in the end I guess. The problem is with the visitor's visa. Had she applied after the visitors visa expired, she would have probably been okay.

She will be entitled to succeed in.her appeal under 117(B)(6).

[Casa]

Oh dear, please Casa i deeply apologise for my last comment. I just realised now that it was CR001 that said it and not you. Anyway this is not the first time you will be mismatch with her, really sorry.

Again, now to one of your reply. you said "if you don't like the message, you don't shoot the messenger". Surprisingly, you sound like a Politician. They make this rules but many of them were extremely corrupt until they're cut and expose. If you follow Politics enough you will agree with me. They are just like every other human in the street. MP pfffffff!.

However, i do not expect your mindset to be equal with the people you need to apply for residency from HO as possibly you're born here or finally settled. But your mindset will change if you become an immigrant and circumstance is beyond your control in any virgin land. British has been part of many trouble all over the world and this has make people to leave their country for a better life somewhere else. Funny enough, most countries don't treat British the way people were treated here and that is fact.

If the OP can look for good lawyer, i think good news will prevail. Many many worst cases have been granted in the past and it will still continue depending on who is representing the OP.

Without wanting to allow this thread to stray off topic according to Wikipedia: “Shooting the messenger” is a metaphoric phrase used to describe the act of lashing out at the (blameless) bearer of bad news.

I'm fully aware of how it feels to be a foreigner living away from my home country and my non-UK husband travelled the same long road as many to British citizenship. Never assume.

[bathanza]

Jane will be fine in the end I guess. The problem is with the visitor's visa. Had she applied after the visitors visa expired, she would have probably been okay.

She will be entitled to succeed in.her appeal under 117(B)(6).

Golden advice Obie, thank you for the reminder. Best of luck to OP.