can anyone please explain it

[MAGDA-PL]

Hello there,
I'm a Polish citizen and my husband is from Pakistan. On 20th of March, we applied for Schengen short-stay visa for 90 days to the Netherlands under Directive 2004/38/EC as I wanted to go to Netherland for job seeking and wished my husband to accompany me. After 2 weeks we got refusal letter which states:



Documents we submitted:
- visa form > field 21 > others > family member of EU
- polish marriage certificate translated into French and attested by the Polish ministry of foreign affairs
- pakistani marriage certificate, translated and attested by Pakistani ministry of foreign affairs
- flight bookings (both sides)
- wedding pics
- my husband's previous passports
- my husband's birth certificate
- An id of both of us
- my EU driving license
- my polish passport copy with all the visa stamps to Pakistan
- cover letters of both of us, states that i will be seeking job in netherland and asked them to treat this application under directive2004/38/ec

Can someone tell us how should we go with appeal process? What should we write to the embassy? We are also thinking to contact SOLVIT. We would appreciate any help.

[Omi00007]

First thing you should definitely contact SOLVIT ASAP, as they can take up to 10 weeks to help.

In our case when I lodged a complaint online with SOLVIT, I submitted all the same documents that I submitted with my spouse's application. This will help them understand that you fulfilled all the requirements and more.

Secondly, I would recommend submitting an appeal to IND. We also submitted travel insurance and hotel booking for our stay.

If you don't mind, can you post the cover letters, flights and application you and your spouse submitted in support of your application? omitting any personal information, of course.

It's really strange that they are asking for financial proof of your spouse. To me it feels like there has been some confusion, as you state that you will be looking for a job when you get to Netherlands and the embassy is asking for proof of financial stability for your spouse.

[MAGDA-PL]

First thing you should definitely contact SOLVIT ASAP, as they can take up to 10 weeks to help.

In our case when I lodged a complaint online with SOLVIT, I submitted all the same documents that I submitted with my spouse's application. This will help them understand that you fulfilled all the requirements and more.

Secondly, I would recommend submitting an appeal to IND. We also submitted travel insurance and hotel booking for our stay.

If you don't mind, can you post the cover letters, flights and application you and your spouse submitted in support of your application? omitting any personal information, of course.

It's really strange that they are asking for financial proof of your spouse. To me, it feels like there has been some confusion, as you state that you will be looking for a job when you get to the Netherlands and the embassy is asking for proof of financial stability for your spouse.

we submitted to solvit only, refusal letter and visa form but I can email them with our application reference number to home solvit Poland

we are writing an appeal, on the embassy of Netherland website there are short stay visa and under it, there is a category for visa facilitation for the family member we applied in that category and fulfilled all documents which were written there

cover letter states that I am going for job seeking and I would like my husband to accompany me and I want this application to be processed under EU law directive 2004/38/ec

they cannot ask financial proof as we didn't fill the field for 19,20,31 and so on, employer details and rest.

[MAGDA-PL]

First thing you should definitely contact SOLVIT ASAP, as they can take up to 10 weeks to help.

how long it tooked to you get a reply from solvit ?

[Omi00007]

Initially once I lodged the complaint online, I received an email to sign a declaration for my personal details to be shared with EU Commission etc the next day. After that I didn't hear anything, even after sending several emails and calling the UK SOLVIT office twice a week.

However, after 3 weeks we received a call from the Embassy to resubmit our docs and UK SOLVIT office claimed that they were behind the Embassy reviewing their decision in our case.

So definitely worth filing a complaint and it doesn't take more than 10mins of your time.

[gokulatti]

From, the rejection letter that you have posted from the IND, you have applied for a entry visa for your TCN spouse under the directive but for the long term stay ( not as someone who wants to come for a temporary visit for example as a tourist and go back), the directive only gives 3 months unconditional stay in any member state other than your own. given that your application was intended as something of a more long term stay as in an entry clearance for a residence application you are also supposed to satisfy that you are/going to exercise treaty rights (i.e work, self employed) or have the means of subsistence to take care you as well as your spouse even after the initial 3 months.

If I were you I would put the same application along with evidence of funds as subsistence for the both of you while you look for jobs for at least a year.

As much as we want to see the immigration officers more empathetic to the applicants, they have certain rules and guidelines they have to adhere to so they take in to, in almost all cases, the worse case scenario. in your case- what if the sponsorer (you -the EU citizen) doesn't find a job in the six months, will she depends on the dutch public funds for her spouse, do they have enough funds to take care of themselves, is this a workaround to polish domestic law, is this marriage of convenience) these are the questions their guidelines or rather their invisible checklist asks them to ask. I know its very hurtful and painful on the applicants part, but this is the world you are trying to bring your spouse in to. Therefore I suggest thinking ahead and give them proof of everything they might think of even though the text book doesn't ask for it.

[MAGDA-PL]

Initially once I lodged the complaint online, I received an email to sign a declaration for my personal details to be shared with EU Commission etc the next day. After that I didn't hear anything, even after sending several emails and calling the UK SOLVIT office twice a week.

However, after 3 weeks we received a call from the Embassy to resubmit our docs and UK SOLVIT office claimed that they were behind the Embassy reviewing their decision in our case.

So definitely worth filing a complaint and it doesn't take more than 10mins of your time.

today we recievd an email and i signed it and email them declaration form and fax them too

lets see what it brings in.

[MAGDA-PL]

From, the rejection letter that you have posted from the IND, you have applied for a entry visa for your TCN spouse under the directive but for the long term stay ( not as someone who wants to come for a temporary visit for example as a tourist and go back), the directive only gives 3 months unconditional stay in any member state other than your own. given that your application was intended as something of a more long term stay as in an entry clearance for a residence application you are also supposed to satisfy that you are/going to exercise treaty rights (i.e work, self employed) or have the means of subsistence to take care you as well as your spouse even after the initial 3 months.

If I were you I would put the same application along with evidence of funds as subsistence for the both of you while you look for jobs for at least a year.

As much as we want to see the immigration officers more empathetic to the applicants, they have certain rules and guidelines they have to adhere to so they take in to, in almost all cases, the worse case scenario. in your case- what if the sponsorer (you -the EU citizen) doesn't find a job in the six months, will she depends on the dutch public funds for her spouse, do they have enough funds to take care of themselves, is this a workaround to polish domestic law, is this marriage of convenience) these are the questions their guidelines or rather their invisible checklist asks them to ask. I know its very hurtful and painful on the applicants part, but this is the world you are trying to bring your spouse in to. Therefore I suggest thinking ahead and give them proof of everything they might think of even though the text book doesn't ask for it.

thanks for the info sir, surely we will follow your advice and attach documents in appeal. infact we contacted solvit and lets see what they come up with !

[MAGDA-PL]

From, the rejection letter that you have posted from the IND, you have applied for a entry visa for your TCN spouse under the directive but for the long term stay ( not as someone who wants to come for a temporary visit for example as a tourist and go back), the directive only gives 3 months unconditional stay in any member state other than your own. given that your application was intended as something of a more long term stay as in an entry clearance for a residence application you are also supposed to satisfy that you are/going to exercise treaty rights (i.e work, self employed) or have the means of subsistence to take care you as well as your spouse even after the initial 3 months.

If I were you I would put the same application along with evidence of funds as subsistence for the both of you while you look for jobs for at least a year.

As much as we want to see the immigration officers more empathetic to the applicants, they have certain rules and guidelines they have to adhere to so they take in to, in almost all cases, the worse case scenario. in your case- what if the sponsorer (you -the EU citizen) doesn't find a job in the six months, will she depends on the dutch public funds for her spouse, do they have enough funds to take care of themselves, is this a workaround to polish domestic law, is this marriage of convenience) these are the questions their guidelines or rather their invisible checklist asks them to ask. I know its very hurtful and painful on the applicants part, but this is the world you are trying to bring your spouse in to. Therefore I suggest thinking ahead and give them proof of everything they might think of even though the text book doesn't ask for it.

based on this refusal what do you think which documents we should attach?
bank statement as you said
we cant book hotel for 90 days, to satisfy circumstances of stay objection


can you please be kind and suggest me , thanks

magda !

[gokulatti]

All the documents you have given are more than enough except for the proof of funds for living expenses for atleast a year, please provide a bank statement of either you or your spouse for xxxx euros for a period of 12 months. As a benchmark, you can take the dutch national average for a couple to be around 1450e per months, that's roughly 17400e for a couple for a year. If you do not have these funds readily available, you can also show equivalent proof of income from any other source for example, income from assets etc.

[MAGDA-PL]

All the documents you have given are more than enough except for the proof of funds for living expenses for atleast a year, please provide a bank statement of either you or your spouse for xxxx euros for a period of 12 months. As a benchmark, you can take the dutch national average for a couple to be around 1450e per months, that's roughly 17400e for a couple for a year. If you do not have these funds readily available, you can also show equivalent proof of income from any other source for example, income from assets etc.

thank you for providing such valuable info, can it be like this we applied for the visa for 90 days and 1450 into 3 months equal to 4350? and we mention on appeal that for 3 months it will be enough if we cant find the job we will be back? honestlh we dont have such amoutn 17k for a year with us now !

[gokulatti]

I am sorry, Immigration rules doesn't work that way even if what you say makes sense. The first three months are unconditional anyway so it is not even required to show funds for those 3 months so to speak. what you have done is applied for entry clearance (MVV) for long term residence permit which obviously is for more than 3 months. Therefore, the immigration officer are allowed to look in to the long term subsistence of your situation among other things including health insurance for self sufficient couples which would be ideally 100e per month for each living in the house hold. Talking about we will go back if you do not get a job after the initial few months makes your case look weaker holding in to question the seriousness of your immigration plans for your spouse in the eyes of the case officer. invoking EU law. Once a visa has been issued and as a couple you both move to holland/EU, the immigration official just cannot remove the TCN national that easily and the TCN gets full rights based on being a family member, even if you say you will go back if you don't get a job. They are aware of this.

The funds can also be a bank loan for living expenses or a guarantee. If you have problems with invoking EU law, did you try to apply for a visa under polish domestic law? you can always make necessary plans later on about your plans to move to holland after the TCN has come to poland.

[MAGDA-PL]

I am sorry, Immigration rules doesn't work that way even if what you say makes sense. The first three months are unconditional anyway so it is not even required to show funds for those 3 months so to speak. what you have done is applied for entry clearance (MVV) for long term residence permit which obviously is for more than 3 months. Therefore, the immigration officer are allowed to look in to the long term subsistence of your situation among other things including health insurance for self sufficient couples which would be ideally 100e per month for each living in the house hold. Talking about we will go back if you do not get a job after the initial few months makes your case look weaker holding in to question the seriousness of your immigration plans for your spouse in the eyes of the case officer. invoking EU law. Once a visa has been issued and as a couple you both move to holland/EU, the immigration official just cannot remove the TCN national that easily and the TCN gets full rights based on being a family member, even if you say you will go back if you don't get a job. They are aware of this.

The funds can also be a bank loan for living expenses or a guarantee. If you have problems with invoking EU law, did you try to apply for a visa under polish domestic law? you can always make necessary plans later on about your plans to move to holland after the TCN has come to poland.

we tried polish domestic law last year he got same two refusal which he got now purpose of stay and intention to leave eu any way as far as we understand, that write an appeal and wait for an answer from solvit ,these are the refusals which cannot be legally given to family member , according to directive, some member on this forum advised us to apply for tourist visa application rather then directive with hotel booking and other documents , i dont want to look desperate by applying for tourist but do you think we have any options now ?

[gokulatti]

I believe that if you had got refusal under polish domestic law last year, it most certainly will NOT be under the directive (polish in poland) nevertheless given what you guys have been through in light of the pending appeal process, I would suggest you sit tight and see it through. however as i suggested xxx funds would be really helpful for your appeal process as well during the solvit stage. However you should be aware that SOLVIT cannot interfere IF the case drags on to the judiciary following the appeal process.

[MAGDA-PL]

I believe that if you had got refusal under polish domestic law last year, it most certainly will NOT be under the directive (polish in poland) nevertheless given what you guys have been through in light of the pending appeal process, I would suggest you sit tight and see it through. however as i suggested xxx funds would be really helpful for your appeal process as well during the solvit stage. However you should be aware that SOLVIT cannot interfere IF the case drags on to the judiciary following the appeal process.

yes sir it was a refusal under polish domestic law we applied one time national and one time schengen in polish embassy but didnt get visa last year

i am sorry i coudnt understand this , you should be aware that SOLVIT cannot interfere IF the case drags on to the judiciary following the appeal process.??? can you please elaborate , can ind take this matter to court or what ?

[gokulatti]

SOLVIT is an organisation which advises and does not enforce the IND. If your appeal process is unfounded, which can take upto 6 months btw, during this process if solvit is involved in your case they liaise with IND on your case and advises them what is the correct way to go, If IND does not agree, then you will reject the appeal, then your only option is to proceed to district court in Netherlands, for which in the appeal-rejection letter you will have details on how to contact the judiciary, If you do decide to go down this route, then you call the matter as being with the judiciary (courts), once you take the case to courts SOLVIT cannot interfere anymore, which they would have told you already I assume.

P.S. In our personal case, initial application was rejected, appeal rejected, went to district court we won, but IND still disagreed so they took it to appeals court, meanwhile our circumstances changed in our favour so IND was satisfied and gave us the permit as a consequences we withdrew from the appeals court as we considered the matter settled but had to forgo the legal fees granted by the district court which was ALOT!.

[gokulatti]

SOLVIT is an organisation which advises and does not enforce the IND. If your appeal process is unfounded, which can take upto 6 months btw, during this process if solvit is involved in your case they liaise with IND on your case and advises them what is the correct way to go, If IND does not agree, then you will reject the appeal, then your only option is to proceed to district court in Netherlands, for which in the appeal-rejection letter you will have details on how to contact the judiciary, If you do decide to go down this route, then you call the matter as being with the judiciary (courts), once you take the case to courts SOLVIT cannot interfere anymore, which they would have told you already I assume.

P.S. In our personal case, initial application was rejected, appeal rejected, went to district court we won, but IND still disagreed so they took it to appeals court, meanwhile our circumstances changed in our favour so IND was satisfied and gave us the permit as a consequences we withdrew from the appeals court as we considered the matter settled but had to forgo the legal fees granted by the district court which was ALOT!. whole process took almost 2 years!

[MAGDA-PL]

We are writing an appeal. What documents, except bank statement, will help? Hotel booking and insurance? hotel booking for 90 day ? does it makes sense

[gokulatti]

Since appeals are specific for your case, I cannot suggest what documents specifically you should provide, I would suggest you try to answer the "grounds of rejection" IND has given to you as posted in this thread. I don't understand how providing hotel booking for for 90 days is going to help since the 90 days are unconditional and you do not need to give any documents in this regards, you do however need to explain beyond doubt that, As a EU citizen you are coming to NL to exercises your treaty rights, work, self work or looking for jobs with own funds, If your spouse had already been inside EU then all this becomes really easy, there seems to be double standards when the TCN is outside the EU and applies for entry visa under EU law.

If I were you, I would consider coming alone to NL temporarily and setting up a place and start applying for jobs and register myself with the municipality, get a BSN number, register myself to dutch work portal. This shows you have actually started to exercise treaty rights. Imagine you get a job in under a month, Your spouse can imd start coming to NL since afterwards the application should be straight forward. It is good to remember former rejections has no consequences for future applications.

Have you considered going to a lawyer for the appeals? they seem to know more about the appeals and drafting and highlighting the relevant laws which should make your case stronger. this is entirely optional.

[Caravel88]

Hi Magda. How is it going? We are rooting for you.

We are writing an appeal. What documents, except bank statement, will help? Hotel booking and insurance? hotel booking for 90 day ? does it makes sense

[MAGDA-PL]

Hi Magda. How is it going? We are rooting for you.

We are writing an appeal. What documents, except bank statement, will help? Hotel booking and insurance? hotel booking for 90 day ? does it makes sense

it's going good. We submitted appeal and waiting to hear from solvit.

[Sour cream]

Any updates ?

[MAGDA-PL]

Any updates ?

no sir, still waiting for the reply from solvit ! there reply deadline is 5th of july

we submitted complain on solvit website 15th of april
on 26 of april solvit poland forwarded our case to solvit netherland
since 26 of april we didnt heared anything.

now its 26 of may one month passed for solvit netherlands still no reply , yet

[Omi00007]

Have you contacted SOLVIT for an update since they forwarded the case to SOLVIT Netherlands? If not, I would recommend emailing and calling them to get an update on the matter.

We submitted our complaint on 08-03-2018 then didn't hear anything from SOLVIT UK but we did get a response from the embassy of Netherlands on 28-03-2018. I think from complaint to getting the visa it took about 2.5 months.

Any updates ?

no sir, still waiting for the reply from solvit ! there reply deadline is 5th of july

we submitted complain on solvit website 15th of april
on 26 of april solvit poland forwarded our case to solvit netherland
since 26 of april we didnt heared anything.

now its 26 of may one month passed for solvit netherlands still no reply , yet

[MAGDA-PL]

Have you contacted SOLVIT for an update since they forwarded the case to SOLVIT Netherlands? If not, I would recommend emailing and calling them to get an update on the matter.

We submitted our complaint on 08-03-2018 then didn't hear anything from SOLVIT UK but we did get a response from the embassy of Netherlands on 28-03-2018. I think from complaint to getting the visa it took about 2.5 months.

Any updates ?

no sir, still waiting for the reply from solvit ! there reply deadline is 5th of july

we submitted complain on solvit website 15th of april
on 26 of april solvit poland forwarded our case to solvit netherland
since 26 of april we didnt heared anything.

now its 26 of may one month passed for solvit netherlands still no reply , yet

we tried to contact solvit poland but they said we can not provide you any information as the case is now being hadle by solvit netherland , we better email solvit netherland now

you were lucky that you get reply within 28 days , the email whcih we recieved from solvit poland it says 5th of july is the deadline. i guess they give general deadline.

we tried to email european commission but we got so strange reply i would like to share