Irish Permanent residence card for EU/EEA/UK national

[emi25]

Dear all,
Does anyone have the experience of applying for permanent residence card for Ireland. I believe EUTR2 can be used by EU citizens and UK nationals after residing for more than 5+ years. What about the family members such as spouse and children who also qualify for the PR? Is it the Annex C that has to be filled for them without the need for a separate EUTR2 application for each qualifying member?
P.S: We moved to Ireland pre-Brexit and have the IRB card based on withdrawal agreement for adults in the family but at that time we were advised children doesn't need to be registered for the residency card. This IRB card has a time limit. So, I am presuming after the PR approval, this IRB card will be replaced with a card that states permanent resident.
Thanks in advance for any insights into the PR card or to hear about your experiences please.

Best wishes,

[meself2]

I believe EUTR2 can be used by EU citizens and UK nationals after residing for more than 5+ years.

Not sure about UK citizens, to be honest.

What about the family members such as spouse and children who also qualify for the PR?

By the way it's phrased, I assume spouse and children are not EU/UK nationals.
What happens usually is that family members get their residency via EUTR1 on the basis of their relationship with EU national and after 5 years they get their permanent residency card via EUTR3. How is this handled for UK nationals is not known to me.

So, I am presuming after the PR approval, this IRB card will be replaced with a card that states permanent resident.

For EU citizens, they get a 4EUFam for 10 years (which doesn't explicitly state permanent residency but it's issued according to these regulations).
Most likely, you'll get a Stamp 4 card which would also be given with these regulations due to withdrawal agreement, but without EUFam benefits, but not sure.

[Vadrar]

Pre-Brexit British and their families can def apply for EU Treaty Rights permanent residency (Brits: EUTR2, source: www.irishimmigration.ie/wp-content/uplo ... -EUTR2.pdf) and (Brit family: EUTR3, source: https://www.irishimmigration.ie/wp-cont ... -EUTR3.pdf)

Post-Brexit Brits and their families are another kettle of fish altogether.

Q19 in this document (www.irishimmigration.ie/wp-content/uplo ... h-2022.pdf) describes non-British family members applying for permanent residency using form EUTR3. So if your spouse and children are not British, you'll need this and not the Annexe.
'Q 19. I am currently the holder of a Stamp 4 EUFam Residence Card, which is due to expire in late 2022. Will I be able to apply to apply for permanent residence? Yes. You may be eligible to apply for a permanent residence document using Form EUTR3. Your application will be considered in accordance with the Free Movement of Persons Regulations 2015 and the entitlements guaranteed under the Citizens Rights element of the Withdrawal Agreement. If your application is successful, you will receive a Stamp 4 Residence permission in the State instead of a Stamp 4 EUFam permission as the free movement element no longer applies after 31 December 2020. '

All IRPs, including EUTR2/3 have an expiry date. So you'll have to update even the EUTR2 in a decade. You can also choose to update your TEU50. It is Stamp 4b in the Withdrawal Beneficiary section here: https://www.irishimmigration.ie/registe ... withdrawal (And for those wondering - yes, the WAB/TEU50 card programme has re-opened, after having been initially closed in 2022. I'm guessing it had to re-open as the cards are needed to prove right not to sign up to EES/ETIAS.)

You may already know, or not care, but the Irish EUTR2 programme does not confer EU mobility rights, like long term residency from other EU states does: https://immigration-portal.ec.europa.eu ... 0insurance. (Partly because EUTR2 is 'permanent residency' for EU citizens, not 'long term residency' - for non-EU citizens. And partly because Ireland opted out of the long term residency mobility to comply with the Common Travel Area.)

[emi24]

Dear meself2 and Vadrar,
Thanks for your kind and detailed replies. Apologies for the delayed reply as I seem to have locked myself out of my old account as I had forgotten the password amidst all things. These days I can't seem to reset the passwords as there are no emails coming from immigrationboards to my emails. I have been a loyal user of this forum since 2008 and I had lost some of my old accounts. Even the ones from 2019 were lost due to similar issues. And very recently in 2024, I had created two accounts for which I have received welcome emails but the password reset isn't working. And this is possibly my 7th or 8th account on this forum due to the login issues. I messaged the administrator using contact us option and waited for few days but no response, so I created a new account finally.

Anyhow, regarding my queries and your kind responses, the EUTR2-Annex C question was in relation to my spouse and children (all UK citizens). I guess, we didn't need to get a PR cert but like Vadrar was advising in other forums, it's best to apply when you're eligible as we never know when policies change. And given we have pre-Brexit history, we wanted to protect that status. I decided on this as I couldn't submit naturalisation application for children without one parent being naturalised so at least they'll have a PR status meanwhile until their application can be submitted.

Sorry one more question regarding EUTR-2-Annex C. It doesn't seem to ask for lot of information especially activities in Ireland including employment, study etc. Does this mean that if submit EUTR-2 as main applicant with all the required documents, the family doesn't need to have all that submitted? Or will we be asked about this at a later point? My spouse doesn't have employment history for the first year and a little bit when we moved here but have been doing courses, held bank account etc? It's not clear why they aren't asking for these documents whereas for naturalisation each person is considered independently?

Best regards,

[Vadrar]

TL;DR Anyone who is eligible (ie pre-Brexit Brit) should consider getting a Stamp 4b before naturalisation; anyone who can't (pre-Brexit Brits under 16) should consider PR before naturalisation. Everyone applying for PR needs their own individual form.

EUTR2 Annexe C is used to declare 'relevant third parties' to an EU Treaty rights application. It won't get them approved for an EUTR2, it simply notes their relationship to the applicant. I've never seen joint applications, and definitely not as adults. So you and your spouse are definitely going to have to make your own individuals applications. For practical reasons if no other- how will you both note your individual activities in the state on one form? As you say yourself, Annexe C clearly doesn't allow for enough information to assess or prove a right to EUTR2. So you'll want to fill out annexe c with your spouse's details, to confirm the relationship, but that doesn't constitute an application for him.

I think your children are going to have to have a form each as well. The form notes that applicants must sign the form, and if under 18 their guardian can sign on their behalf. That line alone strongly suggests that Treaty Rights are expecting a form per applicant, irrespective of age. Like for your spouse, completing Annexe C will affirm their relationship to you, but I do not believe it will not represent an application for them.

Regarding protecting pre-Brexit status, technically you need do nothing as your TEU50 rights are declarative in Ireland. What you'd be doing is making it easy to prove you have access to those rights. It is a slight distinction, but important for those who for whatever reason are choosing not to take action. They won't lose any rights, they might just find it harder to prove them have them (and this would be increasingly true in eg 40 years time when someone came to claim a UK pension). However, given that was the exact same reassurance given to the Windrush generation, and we know how that turned out, I fully get why that may not be a comfort. And ultimately why I think it is worth taking steps now as you are doing.

I'd also suggest that since Stamp 4b applications have re-opened that is the easiest way to confirm your pre-Brexit rights. That is the official physical proof of pre-Brexit rights. It is also free, quick and much simpler to apply for than PR. There's no further discussion once you pull out a TEU50 card, as its purpose is enshrined in law. If you were to pull out a PR card in 40 years time the 21 year old official you are talking to will likely have zero recognition of its meaning as they weren't born when this all went down. While the 4b scheme had closed PR was the next best option, but I'd suggest it no longer is if you can get a 4b. Once your child is 16 they should be able to apply for 4b in their own right (if they aren't already Irish).

The glitch here is going to be the timing of their (your children's) naturalisation. Irish nationals can't get (or renew) IRPs, and I believe that includes 4b OR EUTR2. If your children can't get 4b now because of their age, but could get an EUTR2 before they were naturalised, then we are probably back to that being the next best option for them.

As you won't be eligible for Irish PR once you are Irish, if you still go for an EUTR2, you'll need it approved before your naturalisation is. Therefore, I'd suggest you'll want to avoid putting your own barriers in the way of a PR as I think you've already applied for naturalisation. The usual order is applying for PR at 4.5 years residency and naturalisation at 5 years, so you are up against it timewise. By avoiding erecting your own barriers I mean complete an application per person to prevent delays that mess up your other timelines. Some people are reporting waiting 6 months+ for EUTR2 approvals. It isn't inconceivable that your naturalisation could happen within 6 months; I wouldn't say it is enormously likely but the odd case like that already exists. trying to jam multiple applications onto one form and then raising questions what is happening and confusing the officials is almost a guarantee that you'll run out of time for yourself.

[emi24]

Dear Vadrar,
I don't know how to thank you for such a detailed and considerate advice, and we are very grateful for everything you've shared. Thank you from the bottom of our hearts.

Yes, it makes sense now. Ok, we'll go with submitting EUTR2 per family member including my children.

Naturalisation was our only plan but since you had advised that's not applicable for children until one parent naturalizes, I had immediately submitted the citizenship appln online.

EUTR2 required more documents than naturalisation and we had to get it printed unlike the online appln so the process is a week behind and I've already got everything ready to be sent off soon.

Stamp4b is new to me and I only heard of this in your other post that it is now open. Both myself and spouse have IRP card with Article TEU50 - Withdrawal agreement specified on it which is valid until 2026 and this was only issued in Jan 2024 after my pp renewal. I am presuming the 4b is a new thing and you're asking us to replace the Withdrawal agreement card with the Stamp 4b? I'll read more about it now and I suppose I can submit this in a day or two before I send the EUTR2 out.

The PR should hopefully reach us before the naturalisation hopefully. I hadn't realized I could apply at 4.5 years for this.

Thanks again for your detailed reply as I hadn't realized many of these gaps in my understanding.

Best wishes,

[emi24]

Hi Vadrar,
I checked and I have an IRP card with permit type Article 50 TEU, issued under article 18(4) of the withdrawal agreement valid until 2026. It doesnt say Stamp 4b or anything on it. My UK passport was also stamped as Art50 by the immigration officer during renewal.
So, how should I apply for Stamp 4b? Is it the same as completing the EUTR2 and upon approval for PR we are issued with Stamp4b IRP card?
Cant seem to find any other way to request a Stamp4b? However, you seem to mention as if they are two separate process, If so, how do I apply for Stamp4b please?

Best wishes,

[emi24]

Hi,
Sorry to spam this thread with more questions..I couldn't find a way to edit previous post.

I have now located the renewal for Stamp4b. However, not sure about this:
1.20 Is your permission dependent on your family member (e.g spouse, civil / de facto partner, child) or is your family member's permission dependent on you?
Yes, my family member's permission is dependent on me (Can this also refer to non-EU parent granted EUTR FAM visa??)
My spouse can apply for Stamp4B independent to me in his own right so I am not saying yes here to mention about spouse or children as they are all UK nationals. The answer I am assuming can also reference Non-EU qualifying family member e.g parent of UK national exercising EUTR?
In any case answering yes seems better than no as there should be no harm with yes?

Best wishes,

[emi24]

Hi,
I seem to be going down the rabbit hole with Stamp 4B. The option I see for 4B is:

"2) As you are a United Kingdom National who was residing in Ireland as a United Kingdom national before 01/01/2021 and was not previously registered with the Immigration Service."

This isn't relevant to my case, as I have already registered my presence here pre-brexit and have an IRP card with Article 50 as withdrawal agreement beneficiary.

So should I just proceed with this option by submitting address proof, pp, previous IRP card (front and back) to get the Stamp 4b?

Clearly those not previously registered will not have an IRP card but the online form requires IRP card as a mandatory document! Strange!

Best wishes,

[Vadrar]

4b is the Brexit card; it is the programme that has re-opened for Brexit Brits since the original Brexit card programme closed in 2022. some people used to call it a TEU50 card before the 4b programme opened but it is the exact same card. You and your husband have 4b already if you’ve got a card noting your pre Brexit rights, even if you call it something different. You can’t renew it until it expires (2026 I think you say) at which point it is a renewal not a first application. Though you’ll likely have naturalisation and won’t be able to renew.

It would be your children applying for a first time 4b if they are over 16.

[emi24]

Thanks Vadrar,
ok that explains everything. In that case, we already have the pre-Brexit eligibility proven with an TEU50 card. And not sure why I was only given a card with 24 months validity when I renewed it after getting a new passport. Previous card issued had >3+ years validity until the pp expiry date.
In this case, I'll just stop worrying about Stamp 4b stuff as it seems like we already have the Article TEU50 card. Children are quite young so perhaps I'll submit naturalisation appln directly when mine comes through. For the timebeing, I'll proceed with the EUTR2 appln for all members separately. And update all about the timelines.

Naturalisation appln is in progress and I'll update in the timelines when that progresses. Will there be a new timeline for 2025 appln as i accidentally posted mine under 2023_timelines and only after posting I realized there's a 2024 one but no 2025 timeline yet. Perhaps one of the administrators can move the post across please?
Also, is there a way to reach the administrators as none of the messages submitted via contact form is actioned. Password reset emails aren't coming through. Basically no emails from your site are coming through even when registering a new account.

Thanks you very much for all your detailed advice and guidance

Best wishes,