Is it fair?

[immig123]

Is it fair to grant someone graduating with a HNC from a polytechnic, a visa to work in the U.K? Will this student become an economic burden to the country in a few years time? Should this student be treated in the same manner as someone graduating from Oxford or Cambridge with a MBA or a any degree in a specialised field and thus have a specialist skill?

I am interested to know what your thoughts are on this.

[psychic]

is MBA a specialised skillset?

[immig123]

is MBA a specialised skillset?

Well yes, if it's from Harvard, Oxford or any other top Business Schools. It's been ridiculed due to the large number of mushroom/bogus institutions offering it of late.

[luckylondon]

law is law, its same fr evryone.....not differnt for dffrnt people....lets take otherway..is it fair if a person cant afford to go in oxford rather he do a degree frm some small instustion....does tht mean he doesnt have rght to apply gud job or any wrkpermit like others....

Law is same fr evryone....

[immig123]

law is law, its same fr evryone.....not differnt for dffrnt people....lets take otherway..is it fair if a person cant afford to go in oxford rather he do a degree frm some small instustion....does tht mean he doesnt have rght to apply gud job or any wrkpermit like others....

Law is same fr evryone....

Going to Oxford will cost you the same as it would cost you to go to any other institution which gives you a legitimate degree. So that's not a valid argument at all. The institutions that give you cheap degrees are the ones with "students" who end up working full-time and paying up for just a piece of paper. No knowledge gained or no skill gained. And thus an added burden to the economy of the country! Unfortunately these people who abuse the system form the majority of PSW numbers and has resulted in this radical move by the government. Unfortunately, legitimate students with reputed degrees have to suffer as well.

[Imani]

law is law, its same fr evryone.....not differnt for dffrnt people....lets take otherway..is it fair if a person cant afford to go in oxford rather he do a degree frm some small instustion....does tht mean he doesnt have rght to apply gud job or any wrkpermit like others....

Law is same fr evryone....

Going to Oxford will cost you the same as it would cost you to go to any other institution which gives you a legitimate degree. So that's not a valid argument at all. The institutions that give you cheap degrees are the ones with "students" who end up working full-time and paying up for just a piece of paper. No knowledge gained or no skill gained. And thus an added burden to the economy of the country! Unfortunately these people who abuse the system form the majority of PSW numbers and has resulted in this radical move by the government. Unfortunately, legitimate students with reputed degrees have to suffer as well.

There was a time when if you did an MBA in certain schools you automatically qualified for enough points under the new points based system under the previous Labour Government. Of course, this "special arrangement" was later cancelled as it excluded many other legitimate students and there could have been a legal challenge as well. I understand your point that bogus students do make it harder for genuine students to be able to renew or switch to work catergories. However, in terms of education at least, the Home Office has to be seen to give everyone the same opportunity to apply. With work visas (other than post study) they are more selective on who they want in the UK by introducing salary, age and other requirements. Post study work visa is temporary anyway and genuine students often go on to get good jobs and are able to switch without much hassle.

[immig123]

There was a time when if you did an MBA in certain schools you automatically qualified for enough points under the new points based system under the previous Labour Government. Of course, this "special arrangement" was later cancelled as it excluded many other legitimate students and there could have been a legal challenge as well. I understand your point that bogus students do make it harder for genuine students to be able to renew or switch to work catergories. However, in terms of education at least, the Home Office has to be seen to give everyone the same opportunity to apply. With work visas (other than post study) they are more selective on who they want in the UK by introducing salary, age and other requirements. Post study work visa is temporary anyway and genuine students often go on to get good jobs and are able to switch without much hassle.

I see what you mean. After a certain point it all becomes subjective. "good degree". "legitimate degree". "reputed degree/organisation". At the risk of sounding harsh, I still feel strongly about how people with legitimate degrees of a good standard should be given first preferance.

I think the government should classify these insitutions by issuing a list of recognised universities, similar to what is currently available but reduced so that it only includes the top 30 or top 40 institutions in the country. Once this classification is made, then it would be up to the overseas applicant to decide on whether to apply for a degree in this country with his/her choice of institution. Because from the stats I've seen, we have a large number of PSW candidates who struggle to get into good jobs and resort to jobs with low-medium skills. These jobs invariably in most cases are good enough for PSW candidates to go on to apply for the Tier 1. That's probably where the labour governmet failed. The Tier 1 which was formerly the Highly Skilled Migrant Programme Visa was no longer "Highly Skilled". The government should publish a list of "highly Skilled" jobs as they used to 10 years ago and allocate visas accordingly.

Anyway, thanks for the healthy reply. Always good to have one!

[tall_funky]

Is it fair to grant someone graduating with a HNC from a polytechnic, a visa to work in the U.K?

Fairness is a subjective term, for e.g students graduating with a HNC in a particular field might be more productive/desired in a given circumstances.
I understand govt. does a brain storming on everything and then takes a decision on balance what is good for the country.

Will this student become an economic burden to the country in a few years time?

How can a student become an economic burden?? Do you have any idea what is "no recourse to public funds" ?

Should this student be treated in the same manner as someone graduating from Oxford or Cambridge with a MBA or a any degree in a specialised field and thus have a specialist skill?

This student will never be treated in the same manner, forget about this student. If you are an International student and you doing the same degree as home student from the same uni, you will never be treated in the same manner.
I don't see a logic comparing two students who are doing two different courses and come from two diferent backgrounds.
Again specialist skill is subjective and changes with time.

I am interested to know what your thoughts are on this.

what's the point of knowing random people's thought on an Internet Forum??
Are you doing any research??
Will this information going to help you in anyway??

[tall_funky]

There was a time when if you did an MBA in certain schools you automatically qualified for enough points under the new points based system under the previous Labour Government. Of course, this "special arrangement" was later cancelled as it excluded many other legitimate students and there could have been a legal challenge as well. I understand your point that bogus students do make it harder for genuine students to be able to renew or switch to work catergories. However, in terms of education at least, the Home Office has to be seen to give everyone the same opportunity to apply. With work visas (other than post study) they are more selective on who they want in the UK by introducing salary, age and other requirements. Post study work visa is temporary anyway and genuine students often go on to get good jobs and are able to switch without much hassle.

I see what you mean. After a certain point it all becomes subjective. "good degree". "legitimate degree". "reputed degree/organisation". At the risk of sounding harsh, I still feel strongly about how people with legitimate degrees of a good standard should be given first preferance.

I think the government should classify these insitutions by issuing a list of recognised universities, similar to what is currently available but reduced so that it only includes the top 30 or top 40 institutions in the country. Once this classification is made, then it would be up to the overseas applicant to decide on whether to apply for a degree in this country with his/her choice of institution. Because from the stats I've seen, we have a large number of PSW candidates who struggle to get into good jobs and resort to jobs with low-medium skills. These jobs invariably in most cases are good enough for PSW candidates to go on to apply for the Tier 1. That's probably where the labour governmet failed. The Tier 1 which was formerly the Highly Skilled Migrant Programme Visa was no longer "Highly Skilled". The government should publish a list of "highly Skilled" jobs as they used to 10 years ago and allocate visas accordingly.

Anyway, thanks for the healthy reply. Always good to have one!

Plz sign the petition and let them know how you feel.

http://www.facebook.com/ISAUK10#/note.p ... 8794842180

[fibreman]

Hey, to add to this discussion...

tall funky is right you can't get anything at all. No benefits or anything else for that matter. There is no economic burden there for sure. You simply don't qualify for anything.

While I do think that not all unis are the same, and all degrees also, a skill is not always easy to define. I would say that for bogus colleges, there is no debate, shut it all down.

Possibly, a certain list of some universities could be made, which qualify for psw, but even so, the students should know this in advance when they apply.

The move of the govt is not rational at all. There are atl 500 000 illegals in UK... students who stay, even "low skilled" ones, are a drop in an ocean. This is not going to change any figures. It's a political move to satisfy some agenda.

The story of threat to labor market is a joke... this population is so small that there can be no threat to anything.
Also, even the research ordered by govt claims that PSW should stay, and
students on this don't affect labor market negatively.

It is important to note that foreign students subsidize uk education for home students, pay vat etc. and pump billions into economy- also creating
demand and some jobs from this.

[fibreman]

Ah, to add one more thing... i would use PSW just to enter the job market anyway, not to work in a low skilled job. The thing is that getting sponsored is a hassle for most companies, and psw is route which u can use to enter without sponsorship. For some, it's a start of career, for others just short work experience in uk.

[immig123]

Is it fair to grant someone graduating with a HNC from a polytechnic, a visa to work in the U.K?

Fairness is a subjective term, for e.g students graduating with a HNC in a particular field might be more productive/desired in a given circumstances.
I understand govt. does a brain storming on everything and then takes a decision on balance what is good for the country.

Partially agree. I think the government should make a list of what skills are needed for the country, also more importantly what they are short of . Because if a local is able to obtain that HNC certificate, then why should they have someone with the same from abroad? The concept of having foriegn students study & work in the country should come from a need for skill.

Will this student become an economic burden to the country in a few years time?

How can a student become an economic burden?? Do you have any idea what is "no recourse to public funds" ?

Didn't you read my question properly? I said in a few years time. As in if you have unrecognised degree from an unrecognised university/college, the chances of retaining a skilled job becomes very difficult and as a result people may resort to public funds once they are able to. Granting such students a PSW which then transforms into a Tier 1 and later a Permanent Residency could result in the same. I know of several people with Tier 1 but with skills that are not on the shortage list in this country. That's where the govt needs to improve. For example just go into the Claiming Benefits section of this forum! You'll understand what I mean then!

Should this student be treated in the same manner as someone graduating from Oxford or Cambridge with a MBA or a any degree in a specialised field and thus have a specialist skill?

This student will never be treated in the same manner, forget about this student. If you are an International student and you doing the same degree as home student from the same uni, you will never be treated in the same manner.
I don't see a logic comparing two students who are doing two different courses and come from two diferent backgrounds.
Again specialist skill is subjective and changes with time.

No, again you fail to understand my question which makes me wonder ... Oxford and Cambridge have International Students too, if you are not aware of that. Almost 40%! These international students and other international students who go to other reputed universities (look at the top 30 universities on this list http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/stug/un ... yguide.php) should be given preference over someone with a HNC from recently opened college or non-college with regards to having an opportunity to stay on and work in this country. And the govt should publish a list in advance so that students are aware of this prior to applying to other universities. That's my point. Because it's bl***y frustrating to have a degree from Oxbridge and suffer as a result of a bunch of morons who have abused the system by coming over for non-existent degrees and only to end up working 24-7!

I am interested to know what your thoughts are on this.

what's the point of knowing random people's thought on an Internet Forum??
Are you doing any research??
Will this information going to help you in anyway??

[/quote]

What is wrong with having a discussion on this topic? We live in a free world. You have the choice to not hit the reply button if you think it's a waste of your time. Thank you.

[immig123]

Hey, to add to this discussion...

tall funky is right you can't get anything at all. No benefits or anything else for that matter. There is no economic burden there for sure. You simply don't qualify for anything.

I clarified what I meant about that. I was referring to students who arrive here and gain very little or zero skills at newly opened polytechnics will find it difficult to survive in the long-term in a skilled job. So what happens when they are unable to find those jobs? A degree from a reputed university is not going to gurantee a job, I admit but in times when we undergo a crisis like two years ago, the ones with the better degrees have a better chance at surviving.

While I do think that not all unis are the same, and all degrees also, a skill is not always easy to define. I would say that for bogus colleges, there is no debate, shut it all down.

Possibly, a certain list of some universities could be made, which qualify for psw, but even so, the students should know this in advance when they apply.

Bull's eye! I agree with you completely on all counts here, fibreman. The govt should publish a list of top 30 or 40 universities from http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/stug/un ... yguide.php which will help future students apply to the right universities which will give them competitive degrees and skills to contribute to any country's economy. Not to bogus universities or even worse, universities of very poor quality delivering "degrees" which are equivalent to high school stuff or lower.

It is important to note that foreign students subsidize uk education for home students, pay vat etc. and pump billions into economy- also creating
demand and some jobs from this.

I don't think this would be affected if the govt restricts the visas to reputed universities because if a student genuinly wants to study in this country and eventually find employment with the skills they have from the university (which should be the case) then they will still keep coming especially if they are aware that the chances of obtaining good jobs are higher if they studied at such institutions. And if the govt does publish a list of reputed degrees, these students will have real value for their money instead of paying thousands of pounds to unknown institutions with poor degrees. But the govt should apply this new regulation to students who are applying now and not penalise those who have come here already hoping to be able to work here on a PSW.

Thanks for the reply.

[fibreman]

Immig, I do actually agree with you... I am not from only one of top 40, but more like top 10 unis myself.

I would never have agreed to even just come to some shanty university. i thought, a good one, or nothing.

You are right, but I think the motivation for govt to axe psw etc. is to achieve an xy number, not to get any real work done... this is more of a dogma, than a planned policy.

I would not be against restricting psw to some fair unis, otherwise.

As for benefits, I would never try to claim anythign like that even if I could... there might be some who abuse that, but that's another problem of the system then.

The reason why we want psw is that even from top unis, tier 2 is extremely hard to get for start grad positions. I think genuine students should be given a chance to contribute.

What I think is important now, is that current students continue to get psw under conditions that were before, even if it gets cancelled. You can imagine, I graduate in like 5,6 months or so, and now I am being told I might not get anything. I do not want any benefits... just a fair chance.

What I dislike is that students are now being treated as illegals... axe them etc. govt rhetoric. Someone dedicating 50k pounds and years of live here, should have some human rights. We are being turned into enemies of the public, which is not true.

The rhetoric against intl students is what worries me.

One thing to add... as long as the institution is reputable, or with some conditions, I would grant all INTL students a chance to find work. I think a student who spent time here, got a degree, should have a priority in access to labour market over those who just apply from outside. It is likely that in this case many "fishy" unis would not get a psw, but that's fair I think.

I am all for that list you mentioned, though.

[sunmoon]

Is it fair to grant someone graduating with a HNC from a polytechnic, a visa to work in the U.K? Will this student become an economic burden to the country in a few years time? Should this student be treated in the same manner as someone graduating from Oxford or Cambridge with a MBA or a any degree in a specialised field and thus have a specialist skill?

I am interested to know what your thoughts are on this.

HNC people will get HNC level jobs and Oxford Cambridge graduates will get their level jobs . What you talking about ? From all of your posts in this thread I guess you have a little idea about the UK University education.
You mention MBA.... its not a specialist skill at all- where ever you get it from, and if UK government make a skill shortage list, definitely MBA (related job) wont be there.
There are about 100 of Public funded University in the UK, what you talking about top 30s or top 40s, there is no official ranking of the UK universities from the Govt. body, and there are lots of little known universities in the UK offer some courses which is better than that of Oxford and Cambridge, I don't want to say Oxford / Cambridge are not on the top. Another thing is if I am graduated from Oxford or Cambridge why should I care for the 2 years PSW visa, if I have intention to work in the UK I believe with Oxford / Cambridge degree it wont be a problem to get a sponsored job (T 2) or I would expect to get a good job anywhere in the world.
If you talking about those certificate making colleges then I'm 100% agree with you but don't say top(!) 30 or top 40(!) Universities, almost all of the UK public funded universities maintain a standard which is internationally recognized.

[tall_funky]

What is wrong with having a discussion on this topic? We live in a free world. You have the choice to not hit the reply button if you think it's a waste of your time. Thank you.

After reading your arguments above, I've decided to take your point on board and will not waste my time anymore!

[tall_funky]

Immig, I do actually agree with you... I am not from only one of top 40, but more like top 10 unis myself.

I would never have agreed to even just come to some shanty university. i thought, a good one, or nothing.

You are right, but I think the motivation for govt to axe psw etc. is to achieve an xy number, not to get any real work done... this is more of a dogma, than a planned policy.

I would not be against restricting psw to some fair unis, otherwise.

As for benefits, I would never try to claim anythign like that even if I could... there might be some who abuse that, but that's another problem of the system then.

The reason why we want psw is that even from top unis, tier 2 is extremely hard to get for start grad positions. I think genuine students should be given a chance to contribute.

What I think is important now, is that current students continue to get psw under conditions that were before, even if it gets cancelled. You can imagine, I graduate in like 5,6 months or so, and now I am being told I might not get anything. I do not want any benefits... just a fair chance.

What I dislike is that students are now being treated as illegals... axe them etc. govt rhetoric. Someone dedicating 50k pounds and years of live here, should have some human rights. We are being turned into enemies of the public, which is not true.

The rhetoric against intl students is what worries me.

One thing to add... as long as the institution is reputable, or with some conditions, I would grant all INTL students a chance to find work. I think a student who spent time here, got a degree, should have a priority in access to labour market over those who just apply from outside. It is likely that in this case many "fishy" unis would not get a psw, but that's fair I think.

I am all for that list you mentioned, though.

Fibreman, there's no point telling him about fairness because I think he has never heard of that word.

[immig123]

HNC people will get HNC level jobs and Oxford Cambridge graduates will get their level jobs . What you talking about ? From all of your posts in this thread I guess you have a little idea about the UK University education.

You mention MBA.... its not a specialist skill at all- where ever you get it from, and if UK government make a skill shortage list, definitely MBA (related job) wont be there.

please don't resort to personal attacks. I am trying to understand different viewpoints and would appreciate a helalthy discussion with good points instead of personal attacks. I don't agree on the point that an MBA is not a specialist skill set if obtained from a reputable Business school. There wasa time when the UK govt listed out a number of Business schools and recognised only those MBAs for Highly Skilled Visa purposes.

There are about 100 of Public funded University in the UK, what you talking about top 30s or top 40s, there is no official ranking of the UK universities from the Govt. body,

That's my point. I am saying that the govt should publish a list of top 30 or 40 universities which are eligible to apply for a PSW or the likes and so students are aware of it before theey apply to universities with poor degrees. Please read my replies in this thread and you'll understand where I am coming from.

... Another thing is if I am graduated from Oxford or Cambridge why should I care for the 2 years PSW visa, if I have intention to work in the UK I believe with Oxford / Cambridge degree it wont be a problem to get a sponsored job (T 2) or I would expect to get a good job anywhere in the world.

Oxbridge have a lot of students graduating every year and it's impossible to grant all the international students T2 visas. So there are a number of these students who rely on a PSW just like any other international student from another university, higher education institutions and worse, bogus universities. That's where my point about fairness came. It's unfair that a student from a top 20 university has to suffer or rather compete with a student who didn't even go to his/her enrolled institution to study for the degree. instead only came here to work. that's not fair. You put yourself in their shoes to try and understand how frustrating it is!

[immig123]

Fibreman, there's no point telling him about fairness because I think he has never heard of that word.

tall_funky, please don't resort to personal attacks here. If you are unable to contribute to this discussion in a learned gentlemanly way, then I suppose you should do what you said earlier and not waste your time. Thanks

P.S: If you read my posts, you'd understand why I brought in fairness into this. Imagine yourself to be a student at a top university who has spent 60k+ and worked their a** off at 30-40 hrs per week lectures, labs and course work for 3 or 4 long years and then realise that they have to compete to get a working visa (eg PSW) with someone who has enrolled themself with a college/fe institution only to get a cerificate and didn't even do 1% of the work they have to do in a proper university as a student. Tell me what's fair about that!

[immig123]

Immig, I do actually agree with you... I am not from only one of top 40, but more like top 10 unis myself.

I would never have agreed to even just come to some shanty university. i thought, a good one, or nothing.

You are right, but I think the motivation for govt to axe psw etc. is to achieve an xy number, not to get any real work done... this is more of a dogma, than a planned policy.

I would not be against restricting psw to some fair unis, otherwise.

As for benefits, I would never try to claim anythign like that even if I could... there might be some who abuse that, but that's another problem of the system then.

The reason why we want psw is that even from top unis, tier 2 is extremely hard to get for start grad positions. I think genuine students should be given a chance to contribute.

What I think is important now, is that current students continue to get psw under conditions that were before, even if it gets cancelled. You can imagine, I graduate in like 5,6 months or so, and now I am being told I might not get anything. I do not want any benefits... just a fair chance.

What I dislike is that students are now being treated as illegals... axe them etc. govt rhetoric. Someone dedicating 50k pounds and years of live here, should have some human rights. We are being turned into enemies of the public, which is not true.

The rhetoric against intl students is what worries me.

One thing to add... as long as the institution is reputable, or with some conditions, I would grant all INTL students a chance to find work. I think a student who spent time here, got a degree, should have a priority in access to labour market over those who just apply from outside. It is likely that in this case many "fishy" unis would not get a psw, but that's fair I think.

I am all for that list you mentioned, though.

Agree on all counts, fibreman. The attitude towards international students is rather scary and very disappointing. However, the rhetoric against international students as you say appears to have stemmed from the statistics. If you have a look the numbers, the majority of students who have arrived from non-eu regions are enrolled with institutions that have been formed in the past 5 years! If I were in the govt, I'd be cautious about that too. They've got to stop and think if this is going to have a long-term effect on society (economically and socially). There were times when International Students arrived in the UK only via the UCAS system (ie. only to good universities). Now we have Tom Dick and Harry coming to unheard of institutions in quantities never heard of before. The govt at this point probably has no alterntive but to resort to just number crunching. Just for starters and then they need to think of a plan for long term retention of good quality international students. And that's where I think they should publish a list of reputed unis and restrict international students to those universities. That way everyone's happy. Wish they do that. As for the PSW, I doubt they will scrap it for students who have already arrived in the UK to commence their degrees. Good luck, fibreman. Concentrate on the finals! And then start looking out for graduate schemes. You might want to do that now cos the recruitment calendar has already started for grads.

[sunmoon]

It's unfair that a student from a top 20 university has to suffer or rather compete with a student who didn't even go to his/her enrolled institution to study for the degree. instead only came here to work. that's not fair. You put yourself in their shoes to try and understand how frustrating it is!

Could you please name one UK public funded university where student can get a degree without even going to the university (except Open University). Please don't mix up universities with those visa colleges.

Just for example - Do you know if Govt. make a overall ranking the UK universities then Kings College or Queen Merry college of London University wont be on the top 20 of the list ? Now will you say student can get a degree from kings college / queen merry with out study ? I think you can argue for a short listed area of degree thats only should get PSW visa, like when it was initially introduced as SEGS.

[tall_funky]

Fibreman, there's no point telling him about fairness because I think he has never heard of that word.

tall_funky, please don't resort to personal attacks here.

YOU started it by telling me not to hit REPLY button!!!

P.S: If you read my posts, you'd understand why I brought in fairness into this. Imagine yourself to be a student at a top university who has spent 60k+ and worked their a** off at 30-40 hrs per week lectures, labs and course work for 3 or 4 long years and then realise that they have to compete to get a working visa (eg PSW) with someone who has enrolled themself with a college/fe institution only to get a cerificate and didn't even do 1% of the work they have to do in a proper university as a student. Tell me what's fair about that!

How do you know they didn't even do 1% as compared to your 100% ?
If getting PSW or competing for PSW is only your aim for the 100% work you have done, then I will say they are smarter then you.

What you missing here is the bigger picture!!
The problem is top 1% or 10% or 20% will never complete the picture.

The question you really need to ask is this: was UK Govt. really that dumb (as in giving PSW to everyone) ?
This is a simple economics, if you can understand!!!
Int. Students pump £12.5 billion a year in UK economy now tell me honestly can your top 1% or 10% or 20% pump that money??

I think on balance UK govt. is fair and I hope this british value of fairness is upheld in these tough times.

If you really think its unfair then please let your views known!

Please sign and invite all your friends and family:
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_i ... 9372050706

Please respond to the UKBA consultation:
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/BDPMGTM

[fibreman]

Good luck, fibreman. Concentrate on the finals! And then start looking out for graduate schemes. You might want to do that now cos the recruitment calendar has already started for grads.

Ah, I did do that already... most answers are like- let us know when u have psw... unfortunately we can't sponsor you etc. The situation would be different if I had psw now. Some interested won't even "touch" me unless I already have psw... that's reality. But that's beside the point now...


As for what you said, I don't think they will touch us who are finishing already, atl I hope so. But you can imagine, I am very stressed and negatively surprised now. I fear they will suddenly change the rules to masters, phd etc. maybe and I have no more money or time to think about that also.

Whatever govt does, it's ok as long as they think about us here now. And make sure new students know very well what awaits them before they come.

[arsenal49]

Life is not fair...

it never was....

it never will be....

survival of the fittest.....

govt needs votes......

voters are dumb enough to believe that immigration is a "bad" thing even though they dont kow what "bad" really means....

someone has to be at the receiving end of "government measures". unfortunately, at this junction of time, non-EU students are....

so, whatever, just roll with it.....


sorry for getting all philosophical about it.

cheers

ps. this post is not aimed at any 1 person and is the result of reading the title of this post!

[tall_funky]

Very well said Arsenal

I hastened to add here that we need to do our duties/work and leave the result in god's hand.