Dutch national in UK - How can I bring Mexican wife to UK?

RobskiG · Post by **RobskiG** » Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:20 pm

Dear all,

This is my first post here so my sincere apologies if this is not the right location to post this.

My name is Robin. I'm a Dutch national and have recently been hired by a company in the U.K. I am currently graduating and will start my job as account manager at the second of July (2012). At the 11th of August I will marry my Mexican fiancée. The wedding will be held in Mexico. As my career lead me to the U.K. I would like to find out what steps to take in order for my wife to join me.

As she is Mexican she can travel VISA-free as tourist to the U.K. Does this mean that she can join me as tourist and then request for a residency card in the U.K afterwards? Is this legal? Has it been done before?

The alternative I'm looking into is the 'Family-Permit' which looks a little more difficult. Here my wife will have to go to Mexico City (application center) for her biometrics. As the receipt is only valid for 2 weeks and we are leaving on our Honey Moon right after our marriage it will be practically impossible to apply for a 'family-permit' right after we are married. As I will have to travel back to the U.K. for my job right after the HM and she will have to go to Mexico City we will not be able to travel together

For obvious reasons I am praying that the first option (tourist -> UK -> residency card) is an option as it will give us the opportunity to travel together and take time to get all documents and translations (apostilles) ready.

Any opinions?

Thank you so much.

Kindest regards,

Robin

sc2012uk · Post by **sc2012uk** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:38 pm

hoi robin,

I am not an expert but this is what I think.

I think it should be possible (wife as tourist), allthough i asked the same at the uk embassy for our similar movement to the uk and they replied my wife definately needed an FP eventhough she is a visa free national. I think the embassy was wrong to say that (maybe an expert can comment on that).

To be safe, we DID get the FP (within 11 days!) but I am pretty sure that once you and her (as tourist) are in the UK AND you live at the same address AND you are a qualified person AND can prove at all times you are married, that she can stay under the free movement rules regardless of how she entered the UK (meaning ukba would not be able to send her home from that point on because she is married to a eu citizen).

After you are both in the uk (you through eu-gate without landing card, and she as tourist through non-eu-gate having filled out a landing card) I would advise you to apply for eea1 and eea2.

I do think she will still be legal if you don't do eea1+eea1 but since she would have entered as a visitor the ukba never knew she is married to a eu citizen. Maybe that would make her an overstayer in the eyes of the ukba simply because they never got the information that your mexican wife is in the uk with her eu husband. Of course, the ukba would be wrong to think she is an overstayer, but it's understandable if they never "got the memo" that she is married to a eu-citizen who also resides in the uk.

At least that's how I understand it.
If I said anything wrong I hope one of the true experts here will be able to correct me.

Post by **Jambo** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:52 pm

I suggest you read this post (and the rest of the thread as it deals with a similar situation).

In short, EEA Family Permit is not mandatory.

sc2012uk · Post by **sc2012uk** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:10 pm

hi Jambo,

You would advise them to both go through the eu-gate and show their marriage certificate so she would get an "1A stamp"?

I asked exactly the same at the UK embassy before we (me as eu-citizen with non-eu wife) travelled to Europe together but the embassy ensured me (by email) that the only way my wife could enter was with FP. I think that information they gave me was very wrong but I am not sure Robin and his wife will not get issues at the border when Robin's wife tries to get in on just proof of marriage with an eu-citizen.

Wouldn't entering as tourist (wife) and later do eea1+eea2 be simpler for them? Or shouldn't there be any problems for his wife trying to get the 1A stamp?

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:10 pm

http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2010/08 ... to-travel/ describes how they must let your wife enter the UK. Easiest if you meet her at the airport.

Have you lived before with your wife?

Post by **Jambo** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:43 pm

sc2012uk wrote:You would advise them to both go through the eu-gate and show their marriage certificate so she would get an "1A stamp"?

i believe she is travelling alone. But yes, if they don't want to apply for a EEA Family Permit.

I asked exactly the same at the UK embassy before we (me as eu-citizen with non-eu wife) travelled to Europe together but the embassy ensured me (by email) that the only way my wife could enter was with FP. I think that information they gave me was very wrong but I am not sure Robin and his wife will not get issues at the border when Robin's wife tries to get in on just proof of marriage with an eu-citizen.

Is your wife a visa national? If yes, then the advice by the consulate was not wrong as airline will not let her board without a valid visa. If she is not a visa national, then EEA Family Permit is not mandatory.
All that she needs to prove at the border is that she is a family member of EEA national. Nothing else.

Wouldn't entering as tourist (wife) and later do eea1+eea2 be simpler for them? Or shouldn't there be any problems for his wife trying to get the 1A stamp?

and what she answer if asked "for how long is the visit", "have you got a return ticket?". I would always advice to tell the truth at the border.

There is no reason for her to claim to be a tourist if she is a fully member of EEA national. As a matter of fact, the IO has much less room to deny her entry if she declare herself as such rather than a tourist.

sc2012uk · Post by **sc2012uk** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:30 pm

Jambo wrote:All that she needs to prove at the border is that she is a family member of EEA national. Nothing else.

Agreed, that's what I thought as well but the UK embassy told us wrongfully otherwise, so we didn't dare to go without an FP.
(yes, my wife is also visa free, like OP's wife)

By the way, what I understand from the OP's post is that they DO intend to come to the UK together, unless they have to acquire an FP which would mess up their schedule resulting in having to fly seperately. Maybe I'm wrong.

I think your advice to the OP is sound. We would have tried exactly the same (getting code 1A stamp at airport without FP but with proof of marriage) were it not for the false advise from the UK embassy. We lost our courage then, but all still ended well for us.

RobskiG · Post by **RobskiG** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:43 pm

To all respondents, thank you so much for all your reactions!

It is really good to hear that a 'FP' is not obligatory as my fiancée is not a VISA national.

In order to create some better understanding I'll start by clarifying my exact situation and the plan of traveling my wife to the U.K.

sc2012uk wrote:
You would advise them to both go through the eu-gate and show their marriage certificate so she would get an "1A stamp"?
i believe she is travelling alone. But yes, if they don't want to apply for a EEA Family Permit.

Our plan is to travel to the U.K. together right after our Honey Moon (1st of September). As I understand you would recommend going through the EU gate and try to get the A1 stamp. Has anyone done this before? Trying this obviously contains a risk of getting her access denied. Even more likely than when she would enter alone through the non-EU gate... Wouldn't it?

Wouldn't you recommend getting a 'FP' as it is much safer than doing it the alternative way (asking for the 1A stamp at the gate)? We arranged a translator that will have our marriage act translated with apostille only 1 day after our marriage so if she would go for her biometrics prior to our wedding we would be able to get all the documents to the U.K. embassy in Mexico on time and still be able to leave for our HM. Only thing I'm scared of is that it will take more than 3 weeks (our HM) before she gets an answer and as we have to book our tickets to the U.K. we might lose them due to the processing time of her application. And worse, we won't be able to travel together.

I have a job in the U.K. but I was planning to rent a house/room for July only so that we don't waste money in rent during my absence in August. Does anyone know if having an address is mandatory for the 'FP' application? I have enough sustainable income, of that much I'm sure!

In my opinion the provision of information from the UKBA is really bad. I even believe they try to avoid people from coming to the U.K. without having an 'FP' as you mentioned sc2012uk.... This uncertainty really convinces me to do it the 'official FP' way instead...

Thank you all!

sc2012uk · Post by **sc2012uk** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:10 pm

"Does anyone know if having an address is mandatory for the 'FP' application?

If your wife applies for the FamilyPermit while you both live in Mexico, it isn't mandatory to prove a uk address.

If you officially reside in the UK when she applies for FP I think it is, but I'm not sure. (check fp application form and guidance notes for that)

fysicus · Post by **fysicus** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:01 pm

If you are not a visa national, I would never consider to get an unnecessary EEA FP. Even though it is free, it is a lot of hassle. You grossly overestimate the probability that a non-visa national is denied entry to the UK.

Simply come to the UK and apply for a Residence Card (EEA2) as soon as possible.

Your situation is not such that the alarms are triggered (the highest alarm, I think, would be for a couple where the woman is from an A8 country and the man from a country, like Pakistan or Nigeria, that ranks high on the list of illegal immigrants).

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:20 pm

fysicus wrote:If you are not a visa national, I would never consider to get an unnecessary EEA FP. Even though it is free, it is a lot of hassle. You grossly overestimate the probability that a non-visa national is denied entry to the UK.

Agreed and remember that regulation 11.4 is on your side.

(4) Before an immigration officer refuses admission to the United Kingdom to a person under
this regulation because the person does not produce on arrival a document mentioned in paragraph
(1) or (2), the immigration officer must give the person every reasonable opportunity to obtain the
document or have it brought to him within a reasonable period of time or to prove by other means
that he is—
(a) an EEA national;
(b) a family member of an EEA national with a right to accompany that national or join him
in the United Kingdom; or
(c) a family member who has retained the right of residence or a person with a permanent
right of residence under regulation 15.

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:27 pm

RobskiG wrote: Our plan is to travel to the U.K. together right after our Honey Moon (1st of September). As I understand you would recommend going through the EU gate and try to get the A1 stamp.

Go through the EU gate and enter under regulation 11.4

Trying this obviously contains a risk of getting her access denied. Wouldn't you recommend getting a 'FP' as it is much safer than doing it the alternative way (asking for the 1A stamp at the gate)?

No more than the family permit being denied for spurious reasons - it happens.

We arranged a translator that will have our marriage act translated with apostille

A translation is sufficient by a reputable translator.

And worse, we won't be able to travel together.

You will be able to if you enter under 11.4

I have a job in the U.K.

Great, you're residing in accordance with the regulations.

RobskiG · Post by **RobskiG** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:40 pm

Dear all,

My apologies for not having replied earlier. All the VISA procedures are taking a lot of time and can be very frustrating as well.

We have decided to apply for a Family Permit instead of going for a stamp at the airport. Even though my fiancée is not a VISA national. Reason is that we want to be a 100% sure that we won't have any problems occurring at the border. Aside from that all migration services agencies we have spoken with recommend to go for the Family Permit as well!

Now I was wondering about the exact required documents for making a successful family permit application. As I understood the procedure looks as following:

1) Get married by law
2) Get a translated marriage certificate
3) Do the online application for a VAF5 form
4) Print this form
5) Supply all required documents in Mexico City (application center)
6) Take the biometrics and have your passport sent out to Bogota Colombia (in this case).

My only worry at the moment is point 5 in this plan! Thus, which documents does my fiancée have to bring to the application center in order to obtain her VISA.

What I understood they will require the following documents:

When you apply, you should include all the documents that you can to show that you are a family member of an EEA national. What the UKBA website shows as required documents are the following:

1) a copy of the EEA national's passport, endorsed by the EEA national's embassy in the country of application); and
2) proof of your relationship to the EEA national (for example, your birth certificate or marriage certificate); and
3) a letter from the EEA national, declaring that you are travelling with them or are joining them in the UK.
4) Copy of Contract of employment in the U.K.
5) Copy of contract of accommodation in the U.K (???)
6) Letter of my employer stating that I work in the U.K. and pay taxes etc.
7) a signed printout of your completed form;

your passport.
9) 1 recent passport-sized (45mm x 35mm) colour photograph of your face, which meets the requirements in our photograph guidance - you can download this guidance from the right side of this page;
10) evidence that you have already paid the visa application fee;
11) any supporting documents that are relevant to your application and a photocopy of each document including English translations;

My question: What do they mean with 'Any supporting documents that are relevant to your application?'... This seems like a very vague term. Is there anything That I am missing with the above given information? Any else that you have brought for your application?

Please tell me if there are any important documents missing here so that I'll make sure to bring them to my fiancée's application! We basically (due to our timeframe) only have one chance of getting it right.

Thank you so much everybody!!!

Kindest regards,

Robin Geurten
the Netherlands

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:56 pm

RobskiG wrote:My question: What do they mean with 'Any supporting documents that are relevant to your application?'... This seems like a very vague term. Is there anything That I am missing with the above given information? Any else that you have brought for your application?

Intentionally vague is the right description.

Legally you should only need to provide: two passports and a marriage certificate.

You do not legally need to provide any information about what work you will be doing in the UK, nor your assets or current work (for either the EU citizen nor the non-EU).

But UKBA is sometimes turning people down, for all sorts of reasons. Is it legal? No. But they are doing so in any case.

sc2012uk · Post by **sc2012uk** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:16 pm

fyi, we did not submit 4, 5, 6, 10, 11:

4, 5, 6; maybe(?) are needed if you as eea citizen live&work in the uk already; but in our case we entered uk together to settle there so there was nothing to report about any current UK housing (or income).

10, because FP is free (or should be)

11, all our documents were in english already and we had nothing else to submit (e.g. no bank statements and all of that unneeded stuff)

RobskiG · Post by **RobskiG** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:34 pm

How did you go about the following then?

1) a copy of the EEA national's passport, endorsed by the EEA national's embassy in the country of application); and

As I understand from the description I have to go to the N.L. Embassy in the U.K. to get this 'endorsed' passport copy. As I am currently still residing in the N.L. this is a problem as I will have to fly to the U.K. only to obtain this paper as I have to be physically present... Sjeez.

What other documents would they require in English? Just the marriage certificate right?

Cheers![/i]

Post by **Jambo** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:10 pm

RobskiG wrote:How did you go about the following then?

1) a copy of the EEA national's passport, endorsed by the EEA national's embassy in the country of application); and

As I understand from the description I have to go to the N.L. Embassy in the U.K. to get this 'endorsed' passport copy. As I am currently still residing in the N.L. this is a problem as I will have to fly to the U.K. only to obtain this paper as I have to be physically present... Sjeez.

This requirement assumes that both the EEA national and the non EEA are present in the country of application which might not be true in all cases. There is no requirement for you to fly anywhere for it. You can get it endorsed in Mexico or just bring the original with you in Mexico (if you are there) and the consulate can make a copy themselves.

What other documents would they require in English? Just the marriage certificate right?

as this is the only document you really need to provide, then - yes.

Post by **Jambo** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:33 pm

We have decided to apply for a Family Permit instead of going for a stamp at the airport. Even though my fiancée is not a VISA national. Reason is that we want to be a 100% sure that we won't have any problems occurring at the border. Aside from that all migration services agencies we have spoken with recommend to go for the Family Permit as well!

I understand you are nervous but let's me ask you this - if you would have planned to go to the UK for a visit would your wife also apply for a visa even though she doesn't need one just be a 100% sure you won't have problems at the airport? Her right to enter as a EEA family member is stronger than her right as a tourist so there isn't any need for the "visa".

Also, no one gurantee you will get the Family Permit. They have been reports by forum members about ECO not fully understanding EEA regulations and rejecting applications on various reasons. So there is no 100% there. The chances of being refused at the border are significantly lower compared to making an application.

And who are these immigration services who recommend to apply for a permit? Companies which would like you to apply using them and to charge you a fee for that?

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:09 pm

RobskiG wrote:How did you go about the following then?

1) a copy of the EEA national's passport, endorsed by the EEA national's embassy in the country of application); and

A straight photocopy of the biometrics page should be sufficient in most cases.

I know it says this on the website http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucit ... documents/

Quote:
a copy of the EEA national's passport, endorsed by the EEA national's embassy in the country of application)

However, in this document http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... permit.pdf

it says this

Quote:
Evidence of your sponsor’s nationality
This could be copies of:
bio-data pages from their passport
their national identity document
their residence permit

I'm not sure what evidence the UKBA expects to see for spouse visas, but suspect that they don't ask for a certified photocopy of the British citizen's passport.

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:11 pm

Jambo wrote:
We have decided to apply for a Family Permit instead of going for a stamp at the airport. Even though my fiancée is not a VISA national. Reason is that we want to be a 100% sure that we won't have any problems occurring at the border. Aside from that all migration services agencies we have spoken with recommend to go for the Family Permit as well!
I understand you are nervous but let's me ask you this - if you would have planned to go to the UK for a visit would your wife also apply for a visa even though she doesn't need one just be a 100% sure you won't have problems at the airport? Her right to enter as a EEA family member is stronger than her right as a tourist so there isn't any need for the "visa".

Also, no one gurantee you will get the Family Permit. They have been reports by forum members about ECO not fully understanding EEA regulations and rejecting applications on various reasons. So there is no 100% there. The chances of being refused at the border are significantly lower compared to making an application.

And who are these immigration services who recommend to apply for a permit? Companies which would like you to apply using them and to charge you a fee for that?

You've taken (most) of the words right out of my mouth! I concur completely.

RobskiG · Post by **RobskiG** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:39 pm

Jambo wrote:
We have decided to apply for a Family Permit instead of going for a stamp at the airport. Even though my fiancée is not a VISA national. Reason is that we want to be a 100% sure that we won't have any problems occurring at the border. Aside from that all migration services agencies we have spoken with recommend to go for the Family Permit as well!
I understand you are nervous but let's me ask you this - if you would have planned to go to the UK for a visit would your wife also apply for a visa even though she doesn't need one just be a 100% sure you won't have problems at the airport? Her right to enter as a EEA family member is stronger than her right as a tourist so there isn't any need for the "visa".

Also, no one gurantee you will get the Family Permit. They have been reports by forum members about ECO not fully understanding EEA regulations and rejecting applications on various reasons. So there is no 100% there. The chances of being refused at the border are significantly lower compared to making an application.

And who are these immigration services who recommend to apply for a permit? Companies which would like you to apply using them and to charge you a fee for that?

Jambo, I am positively sure that you are right about this. However, isn't it so that if, for some unexplainable reason, her family permit gets denied we can always go by this way?

With regard to the endorsed paper. I won't be able to join my wife making the application in Mexico due to my work. Thus, I could most definitely provide them with a copy of my passport but am also quite sure that when it's been 'validated' by the embassy it will positively effect the outcome...

sc2012uk · Post by **sc2012uk** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:41 pm

RobskiG wrote:How did you go about the following then?

1) a copy of the EEA national's passport, endorsed by the EEA national's embassy in the country of application); and

As I understand from the description I have to go to the N.L. Embassy in the U.K. to get this 'endorsed' passport copy. As I am currently still residing in the N.L. this is a problem as I will have to fly to the U.K. only to obtain this paper as I have to be physically present... Sjeez.

What other documents would they require in English? Just the marriage certificate right?

Cheers![/i]

yes i remember that little piece of info (about having to supply the "endorsed" passport copy) was quite unnerving for us too, so before we applied for the fp i mailed the uk visa application centre to ask them about it.
this was their reply:

Your wife only needs to submit the bio-data page copy of your passport. She does not need to visit the Dutch Embassy and ask the officer to put a stamp on the copy of your passport. As normally, we accept a copy of the EEA national’s passport for their family’s visa application .

RobskiG · Post by **RobskiG** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:05 pm

yes i remember that little piece of info (about having to supply the "endorsed" passport copy) was quite unnerving for us too, so before we applied for the fp i mailed the uk visa application centre to ask them about it.
this was their reply:

Your wife only needs to submit the bio-data page copy of your passport. She does not need to visit the Dutch Embassy and ask the officer to put a stamp on the copy of your passport. As normally, we accept a copy of the EEA national’s passport for their family’s visa application .

This is the piece of information that just saved me from booking a ticket and wasting a complete day in the U.K. for that passport copy. I'll just copy the picture & signature page of my passport then? I reckon this is the page required for her application? In my passport it's the first page (hard plastic thingie) whereas in the U.K. it's one of the last pages right?

Thank you !!!

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:07 pm

sc2012uk wrote: Your wife only needs to submit the bio-data page copy of your passport. She does not need to visit the Dutch Embassy and ask the officer to put a stamp on the copy of your passport. As normally, we accept a copy of the EEA national’s passport for their family’s visa application

Great post.

I got a similar reply, but as it took weeks for them to respond to the query, I had already had the endorsement made by the time I got it.

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:08 pm

RobskiG wrote:I'll just copy the picture & signature page of my passport then

It's the bit with the photograph cum details of the applicant. Pretty standard format throughout EU.

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Dutch national in UK - How can I bring Mexican wife to UK?

Dutch national in UK - How can I bring Mexican wife to UK?

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