ILR Trafficoffences

north123 · Post by **north123** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:38 am

Hi Friends,
I was driving with provisional lic in jan 10,police caught me and received summons from court, the court has ordered and endorsed with 3 points and £60 fine called the code LC20.Im a depandant holder, me and my wife are applying ILR next weak on tier 1, i was much worried about ILR,im not sure whether my offence comes under criminal offence or not ? And also i was waiting to get the scotland disclosure as well. so pls give advise on this issue.

asim72 · Post by **asim72** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:19 am

That scotland disclosure has nothing to do with this matter. This offence is not recorded on PNC so will not appear on disclosure scotland. But an offence not appearing on PNC or disclosure scotland does not mean that this offence is spent.

Any offence, no matter how minor, for which you get a fine through court, is a criminal offence and conviction.

You got convicted in court of law in Jan 2010. You conviction won't be recorded on PNC, but will appear loud and clear in DVLA computer, to which UKBA has direct access.

adi_khaneng · Post by **adi_khaneng** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:33 pm

Declare it on the application, the above referenced matter won't effect the outcome of the application.

Post by **geriatrix** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:12 pm

asim72 wrote:This offence is not recorded on PNC so will not appear on disclosure scotland.

How do you know that the offence in question is not recorded on the PNC?

asim72 wrote:Any offence, no matter how minor, for which you get a fine through court, is a criminal offence and conviction.

No. e.g. - offence committed when using an international driving permit are dealt with by the courts as a matter of procedure and a fine imposed by a judge may not necessarily lead to a conviction.

asim72 wrote:You got convicted in court of law in Jan 2010. You conviction won't be recorded on PNC, but will appear loud and clear in DVLA computer, to which UKBA has direct access.

If a conviction is not recorded in the PNC / CRB, then there is no conviction! DVLA database has nothing to do with a conviction.

adi_khaneng wrote:Declare it on the application, the above referenced matter won't effect the outcome of the application.

How? And on what basis is such an assertion being made?

Post by **geriatrix** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:16 pm

OP, get a basic CRB check done and / or make a subject access request for information held on PNC. Whether you meet the criminality threshold or not can only be ascertained then.

asim72 · Post by **asim72** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:34 pm

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asim72 wrote:
This offence is not recorded on PNC so will not appear on disclosure scotland.

How do you know that the offence in question is not recordable on the PNC?
I know because I know exactly which offences are recorded on the PNC. Only "recordable offences" are recorded in PNC. Recorded offences are those where there is a term of imprisonment is available as a sentence. It does not matter if a person is actually imprisoned or not.

asim72 wrote:
Any offence, no matter how minor, for which you get a fine through court, is a criminal offence and conviction.
No. e.g. - offence committed when using an international driving permit are dealt with by the courts as a matter of procedure and a fine imposed by a judge may not necessarily lead to a conviction.

Any fine imposed by a court, as a result of prosecution brought by cps or other prosecution agencies is a criminal conviction. There is no two ways about it. Court can only impose fine when someone is found guilty of an offence.
asim72 wrote:
You got convicted in court of law in Jan 2010. You conviction won't be recorded on PNC, but will appear loud and clear in DVLA computer, to which UKBA has direct access.
If a conviction is not recorded in the PNC / CRB, then there is no conviction! DVLA database has nothing to do with a conviction.

I already explained above about PNC. And who says DVLA has nothing to do with convictions? DVLA has everything to do with convictions, when those convictions relate to driving offence. That is why on the counterpart license there are specific fields to record this.

Hats off to you sushdmehta, you have real precise knowledge about immigration matters and you do give good and helpful replies to memeber, and I learn a lot from your replies.

No offence, but when it comes to criminal law, I know a few things about it.

north123 · Post by **north123** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:37 pm

Hi friends,
Thanks for all your valuable suggestion for me.Hope i can get few more suggestions. today i spoke to few immigiration solicitors , they said it's nothing do with disclosure ,it will unspent for 5 ys .so pls guide some more information.

thanks.

asim72 · Post by **asim72** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:42 pm

More information is, that your conviction will get spent 5 years from the date of conviction. This according to rehabilitation of offenders act 1974.

asim72 · Post by **asim72** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:52 pm

Some additional clarification

When court issues something called a "fine" then it is a criminal conviction.

Another hint for a lay person is, look at the court papers, with all convictions there is something added to the amount called "victim surcharge". Victim surcharge can only be charged when someone has been found guilty of an offence.

If its a civil matter and court finds in favour of one party and order other party to pay up then it is called an "order".

Wherever there is an option of pleading "guilty" or "not guilty" then it is a criminal proceeding. Anyone can check their court papers and there will be this question.

Civil matters have no guilty or not guilty verdicts.

If magistrate court hears civil matters like council tax non-payment, then if it finds in favour of council then the court issues an "order" and imposes a "penalty" on the council tax non payer.

Because it is a civil matter, the court issues a "penalty". If it were a criminal matter court would issue a "fine".

innocentdevil · Post by **innocentdevil** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:04 pm

here is how I think:

Traffic Offenses of any kind where you have been dealt with Fixed Penalty on the spot and fine should be fine when applying for ILR.

some offenses can however only be dealt by court such as the case above then that doesn't mean one cannot apply for ILR.

any offenses where one has been taken into court and given penalty and fine due to the nature of offense i.e drunk driving etc will be an issue.

UKBA CW are not daft and know difference between an offense which is serious and which isn't. i.e: drunk driving / using mobile is serious offense as you are doing it deliberately while going over speed limit by 5 or 10 miles isn't intentional so it isn't that serious though I am not saying doing a ton over speed is right. if you know what I mean.

same for CCJs. if you have not lived at million address then for one to have a CCJ one will know as before it happens you will get plenty of correspondce from the person charging you / taking you to the court.

hope this helps

asim72 · Post by **asim72** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:24 pm

What is serious and what is not is not the matter of debate.

What was up for discussion was, "What is a conviction?"

And I tried to explain in simple words what is a "conviction".

Serious or not serious is not an issue.

And I think you didn't gather much from my post. "penalty" and "fine" are totally different things.

If you do not pay a parking fine and the matter goes to court, the court does not and cannot impose a "fine" because parking offence contraventions (generally) are civil offences. In this case court imposes a "penalty", and this is not a conviction.

If you are charged by police (actually cps) for driving without a license or many other traffic offences, then you either have to plead guilty or not guilty. There is no other option, because it is a criminal prosecution. If you plead guilty or if you are found guilty then the court imposes a "fine" not a penalty.

Also one simple thing, which people cannot get around their heads. All convictions are criminal convictions, and I mean all convictions.

No one can be found "guilty" of a civil offence.
One can be found "responsible" or "liable" for a civil offence, but can never be "guilty" of a civil matter.

Post by **geriatrix** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:11 am

asim72 wrote:
sushdmehta wrote:
asim72 wrote:Any offence, no matter how minor, for which you get a fine through court, is a criminal offence and conviction.
No. e.g. - offence committed when using an international driving permit are dealt with by the courts as a matter of procedure and a fine imposed by a judge may not necessarily lead to a conviction.
Any fine imposed by a court, as a result of prosecution brought by cps or other prosecution agencies is a criminal conviction. There is no two ways about it. Court can only impose fine when someone is found guilty of an offence.

asim72 wrote:
sushdmehta wrote:
asim72 wrote:You got convicted in court of law in Jan 2010. You conviction won't be recorded on PNC, but will appear loud and clear in DVLA computer, to which UKBA has direct access.
If a conviction is not recorded in the PNC / CRB, then there is no conviction! DVLA database has nothing to do with a conviction.
I already explained above about PNC. And who says DVLA has nothing to do with convictions? DVLA has everything to do with convictions, when those convictions relate to driving offence. That is why on the counterpart license there are specific fields to record this.

asim72 wrote:If you are charged by police (actually cps) for driving without a license or many other traffic offences, then you either have to plead guilty or not guilty. There is no other option, because it is a criminal prosecution. If you plead guilty or if you are found guilty then the court imposes a "fine" not a penalty.

innocentdevil · Post by **innocentdevil** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:07 pm

@ Asim : regardless on penalty or fine, whichever may sound good to you. how on earth you know that one hasn't got one if one has been given one. only a disclosure request will reveal that info.

and i did gather some info from your post that you are good at forcing your opinion on people.

asim72 · Post by **asim72** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:09 pm

First of all, I personally do not need to know immigration applicants' experiences and success stories to know about criminal law in general and criminal convictions in particular.

The fact of the matter is, UKBA just does not do these checks routinely. Caseworkers are not criminal law experts, and to be honest they hardly have any clue about criminal law.

Someone getting away with a conviction does not mean that the conviction is spent by the letter of law.

I tried to explain what is regarded as "conviction" by the letter of law. Whats recorded in a database or not is a different matter. Someone does not make checks is also a different matter.

What are immigration applicants? There have been dozen's of cases where convicted peadophiles who were on sex offenders register for life have been employed by companies to work with children. Why? Because someone did not do the checks.

And the biggest joke was, when illegal immigrants worked in home office as cleaners. Why? Because someone did not do the checks.

Post by **geriatrix** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:20 pm

We all hope that the OP can join the growing list of "lucky" applicants, despite being convicted of a regulatory traffic offence that does not fall within the purview of recordable offences.

innocentdevil · Post by **innocentdevil** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:27 pm

do the checks would be my advice to OP. better to be safe than sorry Eh!!!

asim72 · Post by **asim72** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:44 pm

innocentdevil wrote:@ Asim : regardless on penalty or fine, whichever may sound good to you. how on earth you know that one hasn't got one if one has been given one. only a disclosure request will reveal that info.

and i did gather some info from your post that you are good at forcing your opinion on people.

Yea, I really do force my opinions. I investigate who is applying when at a peo. Then I go there and put a gun to their head and force my opinion on them.

innocentdevil · Post by **innocentdevil** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:56 pm

asim72 wrote:
innocentdevil wrote:@ Asim : regardless on penalty or fine, whichever may sound good to you. how on earth you know that one hasn't got one if one has been given one. only a disclosure request will reveal that info.

and i did gather some info from your post that you are good at forcing your opinion on people.
Yea, I really do force my opinions. I investigate who is applying when at a peo. Then I go there and put a gun to their head and force my opinion on them.

then I would say you need to put the check on where it asks in the application form about criminality threshold

Post by **geriatrix** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:58 pm

Guys, no point in indulging in a war of words.

north123 · Post by **north123** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:57 pm

I got a slot in sheffiled on 17th july, to apply for ILR, will they allow my consultant to represent behalf on me because of i have booked the slot my own,im not sure they will allow the represents ? Pls suggest me if anyone knows, and also how is sheffield PEO office, the staff are co-operative with the people ? pls let us know

north123 · Post by **north123** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:23 pm

Got the disclosure from scotland and there was no driving convictions and applied on 17th july and finally got the ilr. thanks for all your suggestions and advices.

hoseaoshea · Post by **hoseaoshea** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:49 pm

north123 wrote:Got the disclosure from scotland and there was no driving convictions and applied on 17th july and finally got the ilr. thanks for all your suggestions and advices.

Hello North123,
Did you declare the offence on your application or not?

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