EU 1 - Has anyone got a response in the last 4 weeks?

brownbonno · Post by **brownbonno** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:30 pm

dsab85 wrote:Hey Mikael,

congratulations. At what point did you involve the lawyer, and how many corresondences did it take to get the permit?

We are now waiting 8 months as well, and finally got a lawyer involved yesterday.

Cheers,
DSAB

Basically you are suppose to write to the DoJ as soon as the six months time limit has elapses.Requesting a reason for not adhering to the Directive and give them 14 days to get a response.Remind them of your rights as an EU citizen exercising the Treaty rights of free movement.
In the case,European Commission v Spain (2005)Held:'' ......., in breach of the provisions of Council Directive (EEC) 64/221, to issue a residence permit as soon as possible and in any event not later than six months from the date on which the application for that permit was submitted, the respondent had failed to fulfil its obligations under those directives.''
Thus,let the DoJ know it is a right and not a privilege to have its obligations fulfilled under the Regulations.
Involving a Lawyer is just a waste of Money although it may help if you are not very good with the EU laws and Regulations.

Mikael · Post by **Mikael** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 8:22 pm

HI DSAB,
I involved the lawyer in the 8th month.
He sorted my problem in 2 weeks time without even starting legal action, just senting a warning letter.
All the best
Mikael

lu_rvs · Post by **lu_rvs** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:12 pm

erik84, my understanding is that you need some kind of visa/permit such as a working permit in your passport to even apply for a PPS number. That's what social welfare told me.

Babsie · Post by **Babsie** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:03 pm

Hi Mikael, I sent you a PM. Babsie

Platinum · Post by **Platinum** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:51 pm

erik84, you definitely can't automatically work with an EU1 application being processed. You need the fast-track work permit thing. I have a PPS number from when I was in Ireland on a work permit, and they still wouldn't let me work. I'm now going to try the DETE route.

Erik84 · Post by **Erik84** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:40 pm

Platinum wrote:erik84, you definitely can't automatically work with an EU1 application being processed. You need the fast-track work permit thing. I have a PPS number from when I was in Ireland on a work permit, and they still wouldn't let me work. I'm now going to try the DETE route.

According to one of the EU treaties I think you are entitled to work while waiting for the EU1 application, given that your spouse is an EU citizen.

Here's what user megmog wrote yesterday in another thread:

"I sent an enquiry to signpost, who offer free legal advice, and they responded -

As the spouse of an EU citizen, your South African husband/wife is entitled to reside with you in Ireland. This is clearly provided under Directive 2004/38 which became effective throughout the EU on 30th April last. It is irrelevant where you lived prior to taking up residence in Ireland. On arrival in Ireland, your spouse is required to apply for a residence card within three months. The residence card should issue within six months. Your spouse is entitled to take up work prior to issue of the residence card. "

It could be that we are talking about different cases here. I thought EU1 was only for non-EU spouses of EU citizens. Are there other EU1s?

And as a response to lu_rvs: My wife has a D-spouse visa (otherwise she wouldnt be able to enter Ireland) and that worked fine to obtain a PPS-number.

dsab85 · Post by **dsab85** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:54 am

According to the Irish Implementation of the EU Treaty rights you can only start working after you got your residence permit. A PPS number does not make you eligable to work. AFAIK most people didn't even manage to get a PPS number before they got their residence card.

My wife for example didn't manage to apply for a PPS number, even though we had all the paperwork with us.

Platinum · Post by **Platinum** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:51 am

The big problem has always been how the Irish are interpreting and implementing the EU laws. "Officially," you may be allowed to work, but that's not what the Justice Department has decided. Confoundingly, the other branches of government have no idea what's going on, so someone may have given your wife a PPS number, and in fact, given how some things work in this country, you could probably convince an employer that she could work because she's the spouse of an EU citizen. *But*, this would not actually be true according to those who make the decisions in Irish government.

I think most of us don't want to jeopardize the residency process and so have not just said, "talk to it, the EU says I can work, I'll just work!" If we disregard Irish law, it may have consequences later on if we ever want to move to other EU countries, as well.

Babsie · Post by **Babsie** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:43 am

LATEST

My husband finally managed to speak to Justice (they wouldn't speak to me today...today's new legislation is that they do not speak to husbands and wives of eu1 applicants...)
Anyway, indeed due to this court case, no VISAS for people who have only lived in Ireland or have not lived elsewhere in the EU, will be processed until the court case has been resolved.

People please beware of immigration lawyers selling themselves on this forum as we've been informed that no case has been put forward by an immigration lawyer to date and if one is put forward, the department of justice informed us that they will anyway treat cases chronologically and that a lawyer's case wouldn't be put before other cases.

Just thought I would share this with you.
So my husband now has been told to apply for a 7th work permit.
Great! To all of you out there, please don't forget when you fall in love to check that your loved one is of same nationality as you or holds a valid visa for the next 10 years...I feel like putting my passport on sale today!!!

dsab85 · Post by **dsab85** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:56 am

Thanks for the update. The whole situation sounds nasty, but exactly as I feared.

The one thing that I cannot understand is why they don't get up their a**es and send people a letter explaining the current situation, with details on what the case is about, when it is due and what the effects of it might be. It cannot be, that people have to wait for 8 months without getting any response.

Everybody seems to get different advice, depending on who you talk to. This could be sorted by just sending out a letter to all the applicants explaining the current situation.

And they should at least make an effort to accomodate people with Re-Entry Permits etc.

dsab85 · Post by **dsab85** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:02 pm

BTW.. I don't believe the lawyer story from the Justice Department. I in fact know of one person (not on this board) who got the Stamp4 2 days ago, after she involved a lawyer (who is specialised on Immigration Issues). I have no reason to doubt her story. And this person has never lived before in the EU either.

Babsie · Post by **Babsie** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:02 pm

Yes and not only that, but why don't they put a message on their phone lines??? It's so simple! I've worked in a call centre for the past 10 years and all they would need to do is put a message in their options that says
" If you are calling to inquire about the status of a EU 1 application, please note that due to court case such and such we are not in a position to provide information as to when the visas will be released..." and what about their website? That should also be updated...simple things that would save them and us hours of useless ringing...
This is really unfair, it's causing so much trouble for us.
I anyway don't understand the issue...what is the actual court case about??? The lady on the phone didn't know what it was about or who it applied to. Great.

Babsie · Post by **Babsie** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:06 pm

dsab85 wrote:BTW.. I don't believe the lawyer story from the Justice Department. I in fact know of one person (not on this board) who got the Stamp4 2 days ago, after she involved a lawyer (who is specialised on Immigration Issues). I have no reason to doubt her story. And this person has never lived before in the EU either.

Im not sure about this though...it might be, but it might also be a coincidence, as in maybe this person's visa was chronologically next in line? I don't know who to believe anymore.
Beware as well that I have heard of a person who involved an immigration lawyer and got the stamp4 sorted out, only to find out at a later stage that the actual stamp was a fake of some sort...
Honestly I dont know who to go to now. If you have suggestions let me know. I spoke to a lawyer yeesterday who told me if she got involved she would only be able to get a stamp1...

dsab85 · Post by **dsab85** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:15 pm

I personally sent last friday 3 registered letters to them. One to the EU Treaty Rights Section, another one to the Head of the Immigration Section last but not least one to the justice Minister himself (as he is praising himself on his website for making EU related immigration so much easier).

I refered to our application, the applicable EU directive, some past court cases regarding it and demanded the immediate processing of our application. As someone stated in one of these threads I also refered to the granting of the Residence permit as my Right as a EU citizen and not a privilige, as interpreted by the Irish Justice Deprtament.

I gave them a deadline of 10 days, and told them that in case of no (positive) response I would involve legal services, sue them for loss of income and lodge a formal complaint with the EC.

Looking forward to their response now.

Babsie · Post by **Babsie** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:25 pm

I think I'm gonna get my husband to do the same.
Would you mind PM'ing me the addresses you sent these to?
Fair play to you by the way. What are we supposed to do, just sit and wait around?

brownbonno · Post by **brownbonno** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:11 pm

[quote="dsab85"]

''I refered to our application, the applicable EU directive, some past court cases regarding it and demanded the immediate processing of our application. As someone stated in one of these threads I also refered to the granting of the Residence permit as my Right as a EU citizen and not a privilige, as interpreted by the Irish Justice Deprtament''.

I am happy you decided to take the candid opinion of my previous post.
There is no risk in defending your rights.You will be amazed with the kind of response coming your way soon.Get your salary calculator ready for your non EU spouse.If you have applied for the EU1 for over 6 months,you maybe entitled to compensation.PM me if you want more advise.

Babsie · Post by **Babsie** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:29 am

dsab85 wrote:I personally sent last friday 3 registered letters to them. One to the EU Treaty Rights Section, another one to the Head of the Immigration Section last but not least one to the justice Minister himself (as he is praising himself on his website for making EU related immigration so much easier).

...just wondering if you had heard anything back...

dsab85 · Post by **dsab85** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:55 am

No, not yet. But somehow I don't expect a response before next week anyway.

Will keep you updated.

dsab85 · Post by **dsab85** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:14 pm

Just to keep you updated. We just got a response from the Department of justice.

My wifes EU1 application was rejected on the basis that we have not lived together in another EU country before living in Ireland. Wife read the letter to me, and I will put a copy up here later.

According to the letter the high court Case is due at the end of April, and depending on that outcome they might reconsider an appeal.

My wife is in tears. I guess i will move back to my country asap now.

Static · Post by **Static** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:49 pm

Don't do that! C'mon.. I know it must feel awful right now but you can appeal. According to loads of people here (who seem to interpret the law better than what I can) you are entitled to stay here regardless of previous living arrangements. Make an appeal and try at least. It's not fair for them to do this to you!

joesoap101 · Post by **joesoap101** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:21 pm

Would it not be possible to take this case to the European Court of Justice? It would appear the sooner someone takes this action the better.

zen63 · Post by **zen63** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:59 pm

dsab85 did you get a one year permission on this letter, as my wife got the same rejection for the same reason but the GNIB still gave a one year card.

I just finished a large job which has kept me very very busy for the past few months. Starting on monday i have lots of time available to enforce my rights on the dept Justice.

dsab85 · Post by **dsab85** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:29 pm

Here the letter we received today:

No, doesn't look like it to me.

Dear Ms....,

I am directed by the Minister of Justice, Equality and Law Reform to refer to your application for residence under the provisions of the European Communities (Free Movement of persons)(No.2) Regulations, 2006, which was submitted on Form EU1 and which was received in the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service on XXX.

The provisions of Regulation 3(2) require in order to avail of residency rights under the regulations, applicants must submit evidence showing lawful residence in another EU Member State prior to arrival in Ireland. Following a thorough examination of your file, it was decided that no evidence was submitted to satisfy the requirement and that therefore, residence can not be granted. In addition Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights has been considered in this context.

Judicial Review proceedings relating to a similar decision are currently ongoing in the High Court. Until these proceedings have been decided however, the provisions of Regulation 3(2) continue to have effect and must therefore be complied with in order for residencey to be granted.

In accordance with the provisions of Regulation 8(1), it is not possible to grant residency on a temporary basis.

Regulation 8(1) provides:

Subject to Regulation 20, the period of validity of a residence card shall be equivalent to the envisaged period of residence in the State of the Union citizen of whom the recipient of the card is a family member, or not less then 5 years from from the date of issue of the card, whichever is lesser period.

You application might be elibable for reconsideration pending the outcome of the above mentioned High Court proceedings.

brownbonno · Post by **brownbonno** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:34 am

The DoJ are basing their argument of this case decision.
This could be challeged at the ECJ
In Case C-1/05-
Having regard to the judgment in Case Câ€‘109/01 Akrich [2003] ECR Iâ€‘9607, Community law does not require Member States to make the grant of a residence permit to nationals of a non-Member State, who are members of the family of a Community national who has exercised his or her right of free movement, subject to the condition that those family members have previously been residing lawfully in another Member State.

brownbonno · Post by **brownbonno** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 10:16 am

The best option for dsab85 and others in the same situation should contact the European Commission immidiately,instead of waiting for the the pending case outcome.

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EU 1 - Has anyone got a response in the last 4 weeks?