Immigrant Bashing: Coming up, no access to free NHS, YaY

[deleted_user]

This is one of the awesome hate immigrants debate in parliment.

The initial phase of the review has concluded and we will shortly start a consultation on a range of options, including plans to extend charging to some visitors and temporary residents who were previously exempt so that the default qualification for free NHS care would be permanent, not temporary, residence; ending free access to primary care for all visitors and tourists; introducing a prepayment or insurance requirement for temporary visitors to pay for NHS health care; and improving how the NHS can identify, charge and recover charges where they should apply. We will retain exemptions for emergency treatment and public health issues.

Looks like more rulz headed our way soon. Get your ILRs quick people. After all free awesomeness of NHS is the reason we are all here, with our broken hearts and depressed states of mind.

[letmec2006]

There is nothing free in this country for non eu migrants. You have to pay into to system for avg 5 to 8 yrs, before thinking about something. There is hundreds of hurdles before that anyways.
NHS free???? Bloody nightmare. You can't stay in the hospital for a night unless you are dying!!! Go to GP may be free, but what is the point when you have to pay £7 quits for each pricription.
NHS don't have money you will be lucky to get decent smile without a facial look from NHS staff. Because they all think when you enter a hospital we just grab their money from scratch, even a professional staff would not know, there is no such thing as benefits for migrants.
It is just this government and the media marginalising all migrants and even EU citizens.
That's my ranting!!!

[z18runway]

There is nothing free in this country for non eu migrants. You have to pay into to system for avg 5 to 8 yrs, before thinking about something. There is hundreds of hurdles before that anyways.
NHS free???? Bloody nightmare. You can't stay in the hospital for a night unless you are dying!!! Go to GP may be free, but what is the point when you have to pay £7 quits for each pricription.
NHS don't have money you will be lucky to get decent smile without a facial look from NHS staff. Because they all think when you enter a hospital we just grab their money from scratch, even a professional staff would not know, there is no such thing as benefits for migrants.
It is just this government and the media marginalising all migrants and even EU citizens.
That's my ranting!!!

I totally agree.

[ukswus]

I like your sarcasm.

[ukswus]

There is nothing free in this country for non eu migrants. You have to pay into to system for avg 5 to 8 yrs, before thinking about something. There is hundreds of hurdles before that anyways.
NHS free???? Bloody nightmare. You can't stay in the hospital for a night unless you are dying!!! Go to GP may be free, but what is the point when you have to pay £7 quits for each pricription.
NHS don't have money you will be lucky to get decent smile without a facial look from NHS staff. Because they all think when you enter a hospital we just grab their money from scratch, even a professional staff would not know, there is no such thing as benefits for migrants.
It is just this government and the media marginalising all migrants and even EU citizens.
That's my ranting!!!

The important point is that all of us pay national insurance contributions, which fund the so-called "free NHS". Given that most of Tier 1 migrants are relatively young and healthy, we make a big net contribution to the NHS costs.

In fact, I pay thousands of pounds in NI contributions annually, while I had my health insurance for free in the US. Go figure.

[deleted_user]

The important point is that all of us pay national insurance contributions, which fund the so-called "free NHS". Given that most of Tier 1 migrants are relatively young and healthy, we make a big net contribution to the NHS costs.

Agreed, but try explaining that to the narrow minded people debating this in parliament, who think you are here because of the NHS being "free"

The problem is in their mind they think, "We are so awesome, our NHS system is so cool, people all over the world want to exploit it." This misplaced self-important attitude is what is leading the immigration debate, IMHO.

[barker]

The change they are asking for is to remove access for temporary visitors. Anyone here who is working legally and is paying NI will still have access to the services.

Before cribbing about the NHS you should remember that it is still a service that works, albeit slowly. I am from India and anyone else from there will know what government hospital services are like. If you are from the US the insurance is provided by your company I believe, its not free for anyone.

Dont forget the NI you pay is not only going towards access to NHS but other services as well.

I am not saying that the current process is perfect or that there are no issues. All I am saying is that its easy to criticise but take a minute to consider the bigger picture as well

[ukswus]

The change they are asking for is to remove access for temporary visitors. Anyone here who is working legally and is paying NI will still have access to the services.

Before cribbing about the NHS you should remember that it is still a service that works, albeit slowly. I am from India and anyone else from there will know what government hospital services are like. If you are from the US the insurance is provided by your company I believe, its not free for anyone.

Dont forget the NI you pay is not only going towards access to NHS but other services as well.

I am not saying that the current process is perfect or that there are no issues. All I am saying is that its easy to criticise but take a minute to consider the bigger picture as well

That's all well and good saying that NHS is a nice system blah blah. My point is not to argue otherwise, my point is it is wrong to say that a) most immigrants are in the UK to take advantage of their "generous" benefits, and 2) that the NHS is in any way "free" for us.

[barker]

ukswus,

Please read the original draft, the text states that they want to restrict access to tourists and visitors, nowhere does it say immigrants. The NHS has an outstanding amount of over 40 million from people that are not eligible for this service. If they had paid up it would result in better services for us all over here. This will affect even EU citizens who are not resident here but can currently get treated through the NHS.

[ukswus]

ukswus,

Please read the original draft, the text states that they want to restrict access to tourists and visitors, nowhere does it say immigrants. The NHS has an outstanding amount of over 40 million from people that are not eligible for this service. If they had paid up it would result in better services for us all over here. This will affect even EU citizens who are not resident here but can currently get treated through the NHS.

By the way, speak of the devil. Just from today's news:

Tory MP Chris Skidmore, a member of the Health Select Committee, said immigrants should be barred from accessing free NHS treatment until they had been paying tax in the country for five years in an effort to ease the burden on A&E.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/06 ... k?ncid=GEP

So, the proposal is out there. Let's wait and see.

[deleted_user]

ukswus,

Please read the original draft, the text states that they want to restrict access to tourists and visitors, nowhere does it say immigrants. The NHS has an outstanding amount of over 40 million from people that are not eligible for this service. If they had paid up it would result in better services for us all over here. This will affect even EU citizens who are not resident here but can currently get treated through the NHS.

so that the default qualification for free NHS care would be permanent, not temporary, residence;

All tiers, except for ILR, are considered temporary residents.

[deleted_user]

immigrants should be barred from accessing free NHS treatment until they had been paying tax in the country for five years in an effort to ease the burden on A&E.

The other problem I have with this viewpoint is, why are immigrants solely considered a burden on A&E, or benefits? Why does the average Bob who gets himself drunk every night and cause accidents around him not a burden on A&E or benefits; because he is born British?

There are people who misuse public services. They may be British or foreign and the public services need tightening up against misuse by such people. Why are immigrants specifically an issue in this?

This kind of view will eventually lead to introduction of a rigid class system in the UK, enforced by law, where immigrants will be considered second-class (the un-touchables?).

Not to mention the fact that due to such propaganda, when I visit my GP, due to the colour of my skin and/or my accent, in the GPs mind I become less deserving of his services, though I may be entitled to them by law.

[letmec2006]

ukswus,

Please read the original draft, the text states that they want to restrict access to tourists and visitors, nowhere does it say immigrants. The NHS has an outstanding amount of over 40 million from people that are not eligible for this service. If they had paid up it would result in better services for us all over here. This will affect even EU citizens who are not resident here but can currently get treated through the NHS.

Is the tourists not already excluded from NHS treatment, they can access A and E but if they stay in,they have to pay. If you go into hospital you have to fill in a form to say you are eligible for treatment nowadays. NHS is crumbling without govt funding, services are cut A&E not coping since some years now.
What is annoying is they marginalize immigrant for all the problems this country is facing.

[mulderpf]

Stop taking things so personally. Some additional observations:

1. So firstly, the discussion is around entitlement to free care for visitors and temporary migrants (e.g. people who are not necessarily contributing to the country in the long term).
2. Much of the issue is not the actual entitlement, but the enforcement of who needs to pay and who doesn't. Whilst visitors are supposed to pay for NHS treatment, many do not and this is the major issue.
3. So this thread first bemoaned the fact that this is yet more discrimination against immigrants and then someone quickly took almost an opposite view to say that the NHS is crap anyway. Well, if they get to sort out the NHS and do not simply dish out free cover to everyone, then maybe things would go a bit faster in the NHS.
4. The government is making cuts everywhere. It's far reaching and affects everyone in the UK, not only immigrants. I find it frustrating just how many times people try and throw the word "discrimination" around here.

Just because things are changing (and this is for everyone) doesn't automatically mean that you are being discriminated against. Maybe you feel like you are being discriminated against because you thought you are here for a free, easy ride? Immigration isn't supposed to be easy...

(Government cuts affect more than only immigrants...I suggest you look at the bigger picture before thinking that the entire parliament is simply picking on immigrants...)

[letmec2006]

Yes the discussion is around the entitlements for visitors and temporary migrants, just as we all know these temporary migrants in the eye of govt is Teir 1 or Teir2 etc, permanant migrants are the once in ILR, so I think.
Probably if I am in ILR or with BC I would not worry about these changes which seems to be appearing here and there. Even would start "appreciate" these changes.
Looking at the bigger picture, these so called changes, to anyone in immigration pathway is a nightmare. Even a simple issue about asking a letter from employer for annual leave puts lots of pressure for people who are trying to get ILR. Think of how many times the rules have been changed, think of the exponential increase of the visa fees. These are things very personal affecting people individually.
Nobody is immune to this cuts, which we are going through in our pay, job and joblessness etc. what I am consistently saying is the fact that this is more for immigrants and these media and politicians trying to proclaim as if any foreign in this country is a drain on their resources and they trying to blame whoever is so vulnerable.
Just need to add how even people who claim benefits (not talking about the benefit frauds) are also being marginalized next to the immigrants.
I am glad I could moan these things to people like me who go on the immigration pathway in this forum.

[ukswus]

Stop taking things so personally. Some additional observations:

1. So firstly, the discussion is around entitlement to free care for visitors and temporary migrants (e.g. people who are not necessarily contributing to the country in the long term).
2. Much of the issue is not the actual entitlement, but the enforcement of who needs to pay and who doesn't. Whilst visitors are supposed to pay for NHS treatment, many do not and this is the major issue.
3. So this thread first bemoaned the fact that this is yet more discrimination against immigrants and then someone quickly took almost an opposite view to say that the NHS is crap anyway. Well, if they get to sort out the NHS and do not simply dish out free cover to everyone, then maybe things would go a bit faster in the NHS.
4. The government is making cuts everywhere. It's far reaching and affects everyone in the UK, not only immigrants. I find it frustrating just how many times people try and throw the word "discrimination" around here.

Just because things are changing (and this is for everyone) doesn't automatically mean that you are being discriminated against. Maybe you feel like you are being discriminated against because you thought you are here for a free, easy ride? Immigration isn't supposed to be easy...

(Government cuts affect more than only immigrants...I suggest you look at the bigger picture before thinking that the entire parliament is simply picking on immigrants...)

Nothing personal, but it's funny how the tone of some people changes, once they get their ILR/citizenship. Nobody here expects an easy ride- that's a straw man argument.

[deleted_user]

Just because things are changing (and this is for everyone) doesn't automatically mean that you are being discriminated against. Maybe you feel like you are being discriminated against because you thought you are here for a free, easy ride?

The rules for Tier migrants make it plain its not an easy ride. Yet you sign up to it because you believe there is some good in it for you at the end. The present government policy is set to largely defeat the rewards of immigrating to Britain. Dislodge their footing.

Now there are little pictures and the big picture. In the little picture of NHS, it seem fair that immigrants have to pay and not expect anything for free. In the little picture of benefits, it seems fair that immigrants have to pay and not expect anything for free. In the little picture of HO it seems fair that immigrants have to follow the rules and have to pay HO fees. In the little picture of family life, it seems fair that if you import a foreign spouse or kids you have to be able to pay for them. But when you put all those little pictures together to get the big picture, you find that its always the immigrant who lands up paying. Because immigrants usually have foreign spouses, foreign parents, visa restrictions etc.

Government cuts are wide ranging and are effecting a lot of different people, so the pain is distributed. But ALL of these rules are effecting immigrants, so the pain is targeted.

Finally, it encourages the attitude that problems in this country are caused by foreigners, EU, Romanians, immigrants, etc, and I am well aware of this attitude from the India - Pakistan tussle. This is just a smoke screen. It allows governments to forgive themselves and blame a foreign entity for your problems, which is even better than blaming the previous government. But it does not fix the real problem, so in the long run this is bad for Britain.

[legalalien]

letmec2006 wrote:
NHS free???? Bloody nightmare. You can't stay in the hospital for a night unless you are dying!!! Go to GP may be free, but what is the point when you have to pay £7 quits for each pricription.
This £7 barely covers the cost of medication - you can get a £10000 cancer drug for £7!! so give me another example of any country when you get that level of cheap treatment. Even private healthcare insurance in countries like the US expect you to pay a supplement for medication. Plus this fee applies whether you are a citizen or a migrant
NHS don't have money you will be lucky to get decent smile without a facial look from NHS staff. Because they all think when you enter a hospital we just grab their money from scratch, even a professional staff would not know, there is no such thing as benefits for migrants.
This is a serious allegation against hard working healthcare workers. Have you personally experienced discrimination when visiting a hospital? also what do you mean by facial look? could it be that the worker was so tired that day covering a double shift looking after sick patients that they have a bit of a frown?
It is just this government and the media marginalising all migrants and even EU citizens.
somewhat agree...the issue is not only the pressures on NHS, the problem is the poor management of funds that led to financial pressures
That's my ranting!!!

[barker]

Once again I will say that we need to take a step back and look at the big picture. There is no point in reacting to statements made by a politician, or an article in the media that is propogated by a think tank. What matters is what the government says. And at no point have they said that there is to be any restrictions made on immigrants. They are trying to stop misuse of services by people who have not paid into the system

The NHS is under a huge amount of financial pressure and the govt is only trying to sort things out. And doing this on a scale this big is never easy, be it in the UK or anywhere else. I will point out that however much you want to malign the NHS, the system works, and does so more than any other public healthcare system I know of. Take a minute to think about the public healthcare afforded by the country of your origin and compare it to what we have here, still think its bad?????? People like to compare it to the US, how can you when they dont even have any public service? Companies offer medical insurance as a benefit because healthcare is so expensive.

Is the govt making it difficult for people to immigrate to the UK, yes they are. But its in response to the current situation. Immigration is good when it is controlled which is what they are trying to do. There will always be politicians who use the immigration card for sensationalism and to further their own cause. There will always be "Public Persons" who will talk of how immigration is affecting this country. But there are also sensible people who counter them every time. In fact the article linked in this post has a medical professional countering claims made by the politician.

[letmec2006]

letmec2006 wrote:
NHS free???? Bloody nightmare. You can't stay in the hospital for a night unless you are dying!!! Go to GP may be free, but what is the point when you have to pay £7 quits for each pricription.
This £7 barely covers the cost of medication - you can get a £10000 cancer drug for £7!! so give me another example of any country when you get that level of cheap treatment. Even private healthcare insurance in countries like the US expect you to pay a supplement for medication. Plus this fee applies whether you are a citizen or a migrant


Well thanks for your info, wonder how many young immigrants go to get cancer drug which cost £10000, probably after paying into the system for 30 yeras or so they might do that and they do deserve it after paying so much on Tax and NI. No where nobody gets cheap treatment in any country, it is the blame culture prevalling against immigrants we are ranting about.
NHS don't have money you will be lucky to get decent smile without a facial look from NHS staff. Because they all think when you enter a hospital we just grab their money from scratch, even a professional staff would not know, there is no such thing as benefits for migrants.
This is a serious allegation against hard working healthcare workers. Have you personally experienced discrimination when visiting a hospital? also what do you mean by facial look? could it be that the worker was so tired that day covering a double shift looking after sick patients that they have a bit of a frown?

I have number of friends as Dr's and health care professionals, I am not questioning their hard work, it is the bigotory tabboo thats prevailing in the system, and how the politicains and media and soemthinktank like migrationwatch causing this. I have seen people talk nicely to one local and not so nice when somebody foriegn approching the reception.


It is just this government and the media marginalising all migrants and even EU citizens.
somewhat agree...the issue is not only the pressures on NHS, the problem is the poor management of funds that led to financial pressures
That's my ranting!!!

As i know very well we can't solve this problem, because we are in the vulnerable end, just need to go with the flow. It simply helps to get it off the chest.
Regards

[mulderpf]

Nothing personal, but it's funny how the tone of some people changes, once they get their ILR/citizenship. Nobody here expects an easy ride- that's a straw man argument.

Not sure if this was aimed at me - I don't have ILR or citizenship. I am in exactly the same boat as everyone else, but I don't sit around complaining about discrimination because I am an immigrant. Instead, I prefer to work hard and prove that I deserve to stay here because I want to be here, not because I expect the government to keep me here.

[ukswus]

Nothing personal, but it's funny how the tone of some people changes, once they get their ILR/citizenship. Nobody here expects an easy ride- that's a straw man argument.

Not sure if this was aimed at me - I don't have ILR or citizenship. I am in exactly the same boat as everyone else, but I don't sit around complaining about discrimination because I am an immigrant. Instead, I prefer to work hard and prove that I deserve to stay here because I want to be here, not because I expect the government to keep me here.

Yeah, right. Unlike everyone else on this forum, who do not work hard, who expect the government to keep them here, who sit around complaining blah blah.

[mulderpf]

I do not start threads with provocative titles like "Immigrant bashing" and include phrases like "hate immigrant debate in parliament". Have we been reading the same thread?

[legalalien]

As i know very well we can't solve this problem, because we are in the vulnerable end, just need to go with the flow. It simply helps to get it off the chest.
Regards

It surely does, and there is nothing better than a healthy debate.... I see a some people here are getting edgy, but I see no harm in reading opposite views regardless of how extreme they were.

I think they will come up with some probation period before migrants can benefit from "free" healthcare. But if they introduce such a system, would it mean we are exempt from national insurance contributions since we wont be entitled to the benefits of such contributions.


To ukswus and mulderpf: relax guys, no need for personal jibes...

[vivdubes]

My views on this is definitely we need some improvements in NHS and those are required quite quickly. My friend who is working as Consultant in hospital was discussing this he was mentioning that in a day they have so many dfferent types of cases for eg in one day he treated one patient with a splinter, another with a urinary tract infection and another man with a headache. He also had two car-accident victims, a patient with a suspected heart attack and an old lady with a fractured hip. He was saying he could barely cope thinking where are the GPs? so the point he was trying to make was people unnecessarily misutilise the facilities provided to them.. and though he was pointing toward A&E department and how they are overstressed etc..but I do realise his point that why GPs are not being made effective, I guess Jeremy Hunt has to look this from end to end perspective and see how he wants to transform the whole NHS rather just beating immigrants. I do understand that immigrants do need some education in terms of when to use GP surgery and when to use A&E but that can happen with any one in UK and every one wants to get the best medical advise at the right time..isnt it..