1st. Admin Review Refused Tier 1 Enterpreneur Extensions 2nd. Admin Review Help

[Manu_cal]

I have a health care agency and been employing 7 part timers all as Care Support workers. I dont think that should be an issue that why I have employed people with the same Job title. I am pre April 2014 applicant. waiting for my renewal decision from march 17. Dont worry mate you will be fine.

[rahul190]

Thank you for your response.

Even representative has never mentioned such points, refused applicants have different reasons on individual cases and we all are prepared to face and deal with it.

Wish you a good luck and hope you come up with positive outcome soon.

[zimba]

For post April 2014, the rules say you need to create two separate positions but they do not say that two positions must not be identical.
Such decision should be returned in AR

[Bhavin002]

Dear all,
My visa application for tier 1 entrepreneur extension was rejected. Applied for Admin review, HO changed/updated the original decision and gave second chance of AR.
1st. Rejection: The both Employees have same job title.
1St. AR :HO Accepted they have separate job roles.
Reason for rejection: They accepted one employee as a full time. Another one I claimed April 14 to April 15 as a fulltime employee. But they say employee is only 7 months full time other months he worked part time. They figured out fulltime employment means at least 30 hrs/week and 130 hrs/ month throughout. How does 130 hrs/ month come? I don't understand.

[zimba]

52 weeks and each week must be at least 30 hours to claim full time employment.
130 hours per month is the same as above but instead uses monthly calculation, which is 4.3 weeks per month x 30 hours
As you can see 130 hours x 12 months = 30 hours x 52 weeks

[marcnath]

Dear all,
My visa application for tier 1 entrepreneur extension was rejected. Applied for Admin review, HO changed/updated the original decision and gave second chance of AR.
1st. Rejection: The both Employees have same job title.
1St. AR :HO Accepted they have separate job roles.
Reason for rejection: They accepted one employee as a full time. Another one I claimed April 14 to April 15 as a fulltime employee. But they say employee is only 7 months full time other months he worked part time. They figured out fulltime employment means at least 30 hrs/week and 130 hrs/ month throughout. How does 130 hrs/ month come? I don't understand.

What is there not to understand ?
A month is not 4 weeks. 4 weeks is only 28 days. 130 = 30*52/12.

[miumiuuk]

Not sure if this old document is able to help, please see page 46 of the link below:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... -04-17.pdf


Please provide the details of all employees who filled these jobs for the required 12 month period.
The jobs must exist for at least 12 months. Within the same job, another worker can replace a
worker who is employed for part of a year and then leaves the job, so that the employment as
a whole adds up to 12 months. The hours of workers in 2 part-time jobs can be combined to
add up to 30 hours a week or more and form the equivalent of one full-time job, as long as the
2 part-time jobs exist for 12 months. You must indicate clearly on the tables below if you wish
to combine jobs. Failure to do so will lead to them being assessed as single part-time jobs. We
consider full-time to be 30 hours per week / 120 hours per month.

[Atif786]

Not sure if this old document is able to help, please see page 46 of the link below:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... -04-17.pdf


Please provide the details of all employees who filled these jobs for the required 12 month period.
The jobs must exist for at least 12 months. Within the same job, another worker can replace a
worker who is employed for part of a year and then leaves the job, so that the employment as
a whole adds up to 12 months. The hours of workers in 2 part-time jobs can be combined to
add up to 30 hours a week or more and form the equivalent of one full-time job, as long as the
2 part-time jobs exist for 12 months. You must indicate clearly on the tables below if you wish
to combine jobs. Failure to do so will lead to them being assessed as single part-time jobs. We
consider full-time to be 30 hours per week / 120 hours per month.

I think you have a point , I have also worked out my employees full time and part time based on the same guidelines , it don't think so we need to confuse ourselves in weeks and hours calckurations ,
It's simple formula , any employee alone or combined worked for 120 hours in 1 calendar month should be considered as full time and max 130 hours to be considered for full time , anything on top of that is not counted .
In the application form at the bottom of the employment table it clearly says that we consider 120 hours as full time and 30 hours per week.
Other gurus problably have better understandings of the rules and will comment and suggest accordingly .

[miumiuuk]

sorry, this is the latest version April/2017, you can definitely use it.
Good luck.

Not sure if this old document is able to help, please see page 46 of the link below:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... -04-17.pdf


Please provide the details of all employees who filled these jobs for the required 12 month period.
The jobs must exist for at least 12 months. Within the same job, another worker can replace a
worker who is employed for part of a year and then leaves the job, so that the employment as
a whole adds up to 12 months. The hours of workers in 2 part-time jobs can be combined to
add up to 30 hours a week or more and form the equivalent of one full-time job, as long as the
2 part-time jobs exist for 12 months. You must indicate clearly on the tables below if you wish
to combine jobs. Failure to do so will lead to them being assessed as single part-time jobs. We
consider full-time to be 30 hours per week / 120 hours per month.

[marcnath]

Definitely worth pursuing an AR on the basis of the guidelines. I do recall seeing 130 hours elsewhere (can't recall where now).

However, the immigration rules only specify 30 hours / week. (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration ... attributes)
49. A full time job is one involving at least 30 hours of work a week. Two or more part time jobs that add up to 30 hours a week will count as one full time job, and may score points in Tables 5 and 6, if both jobs exist for at least 12 months.

So, there is no mention of monthly hours in the immigration rules.

[CULLINAN]

You need to show 1560 hours/ year each employee.

Some people find it easy to just claim 130 hours every month to meet the criteria.

However if you go for 30 hours a week criteria. Then not all months have 4 weeks. Some have 5 weeks.

So in that case some months come upto 120 hours (4 weeks month - 4*30hours) and others 150 hours (5 weeks month - 5*30hours).

In total it should be 1560 hours a year.

Please correct me if i am wrong.

[zimba]

I argues several times before that the 120 per month is incorrect assumption and guidance writers made a mistake.
There reason you CANNOT claim 120 hours per month is that each month is always more than 4 weeks and in order for a job to be FULL TIME it has to be at least 30 hours per week. This means that 120 hours per month is not enough for any job to be FULL TIME.
I repeat again under the law, ONLY hours worked per week determines whether a job is full time or not, not total monthly hours.

[marcnath]

You need to show 1560 hours/ year each employee.

Some people find it easy to just claim 130 hours every month to meet the criteria.

However if you go for 30 hours a week criteria. Then not all months have 4 weeks. Some have 5 weeks.

So in that case some months come upto 120 hours (4 weeks month - 4*30hours) and others 150 hours (5 weeks month - 5*30hours).

In total it should be 1560 hours a year.

Please correct me if i am wrong.

Yes, this is wrong !!!

Total hours is a wrong way of calculating.

As I quoted from the law, the only thing mentioned in the law is 30 hours / week.

[sm12]

Cashier as job title

Ok. So if you are post April 2014, it looks like HO is taking an unreasonable view on this. So, you need to be prepared for a possible rejection.

There must be some reason why you need two cashiers - is it because you need them for two different shifts or because your business volume is large enough to need two of them to handle it.

If it is the former, then the Job Titles can be Cashier-shift1 and Cashier-shift2. Otherwise Just Cashier1 and Cashier2.

While I think those rejections reported so far will get overturned in AR, if you want you can always do the correction above, update the Table 3B2 and send it in with a covering letter explaining that it is two separate jobs and the reason why.

Difficult to say if the two rejections were an exception or is a new HO approach - so up to you whether you want to do it or not.

This seems like the best option to make it clear that the two are different jobs (in the form).
I don't think the FPS asks for job titles? I definitely don't have job titles on mine.
Payslips sometimes do, but not always.

[Atif786]

I argues several times before that the 120 per month is incorrect assumption and guidance writers made a mistake.
There reason you CANNOT claim 120 hours per month is that each month is always more than 4 weeks and in order for a job to be FULL TIME it has to be at least 30 hours per week. This means that 120 hours per month is not enough for any job to be FULL TIME.
I repeat again under the law, ONLY hours worked per week determines whether a job is full time or not, not total monthly hours.

Hi Zimba88, in one the posts you said that 120 hours are accepted as full time, as i am relying on 120 hours as full time for creating 2 full time posts as in the application form i haven't combined the 2 part time posts to make it 1 full time because i thought 120 hours/ month are enough to count as full time so i din't bother to combine 2 part time to make it full time however both the employees have worked for more than 24 months with 21 months for 120 hours or more .
uk-tier-1-entrepreneur-visas/120-hours- ... 27963.html

Rules view 30 hours a week as full time. The guide also says that 120 hours per month is acceptable too.
Also, stop creating several of thread for each question. You can ask all your questions in one thread

[CULLINAN]

You need to show 1560 hours/ year each employee.

1) Some people find it easy to just claim 130 hours every month to meet the criteria.

2) “However if you go for 30 hours a week criteria. Then not all months have 4 weeks. Some have 5 weeks.

So in that case some months come upto 120 hours (4 weeks month - 4*30hours) and others 150 hours (5 weeks month - 5*30hours).

In total it should be 1560 hours a year.”

Please correct me if i am wrong.

Yes, this is wrong !!!

Total hours is a wrong way of calculating.

As I quoted from the law, the only thing mentioned in the law is 30 hours / week.

So that means the 2nd part is correct then?

2) “However if you go for 30 hours a week criteria. Then not all months have 4 weeks. Some have 5 weeks.

So in that case some months come upto 120 hours (4 weeks month - 4*30hours) and others 150 hours (5 weeks month - 5*30hours). ??”

[sm12]

I argues several times before that the 120 per month is incorrect assumption and guidance writers made a mistake.
There reason you CANNOT claim 120 hours per month is that each month is always more than 4 weeks and in order for a job to be FULL TIME it has to be at least 30 hours per week. This means that 120 hours per month is not enough for any job to be FULL TIME.
I repeat again under the law, ONLY hours worked per week determines whether a job is full time or not, not total monthly hours.

Hi Zimba88, in one the posts you said that 120 hours are accepted as full time, as i am relying on 120 hours as full time for creating 2 full time posts as in the application form i haven't combined the 2 part time posts to make it 1 full time because i thought 120 hours/ month are enough to count as full time so i din't bother to combine 2 part time to make it full time however both the employees have worked for more than 24 months with 21 months for 120 hours or more .
uk-tier-1-entrepreneur-visas/120-hours- ... 27963.html

Rules view 30 hours a week as full time. The guide also says that 120 hours per month is acceptable too.
Also, stop creating several of thread for each question. You can ask all your questions in one thread

120 hours per month is mentioned in the guidance for applicants. It's not in the caseworker's guidance or immigration rules. You should keep a copy of the applicants' guidance as proof, if required at a later stage.

[Atif786]

Thanks for the reply , but I have just checked application form and the latest policy guide for applicants , it clearly says 30 hours|week or 120 hours / month.
Annex F : Page no: 91
And we follow the policy guidance for applicants not to the case workers .
Secondly : initially in 2014-15 guidance they have given the examples of weekly full time work not monthly and there was a lot of confusion about it so later on UKVi amended the policy guidance and change it to weekly or monthly employment .
According to 30 hours/ week rule I have created employment for 11 months full time employment for 2 works each.
But if I follow 120hrs/month guidance so I have
created 22 months of full time employment for employee 1 and 16 months full time for employee 2.
I don't think it can be typo even in latest policy guide and application form .
I am confused
I have submitted my application on the 29/03/217
With the last RTI/FPS from Feb 2017 , however my visa was expiring in April 2017, had I submitted my application in April and included the march 2017 RTI / FPS it would have completed 12 months of full time for each employee with 30hrs/week rules and I would have at the Safest side .
Shall I post them RTI/FPS from march 2017 as well with a covering letter , will it be considered ? Or I don't need to do anything for now?
Zimb88 , Marcnath
Plz give me some clarification on it
Thanks

[sm12]

Thanks for the reply , but I have just checked application form and the latest policy guide for applicants , it clearly says 30 hours|week or 120 hours / month.
Annex F : Page no: 91
And we follow the policy guidance for applicants not to the case workers .
Secondly : initially in 2014-15 guidance they have given the examples of weekly full time work not monthly and there was a lot of confusion about it so later on UKVi amended the policy guidance and change it to weekly or monthly employment .
According to 30 hours/ week rule I have created employment for 11 months full time employment for 2 works each.
But if I follow 120hrs/month guidance so I have
created 22 months of full time employment for employee 1 and 16 months full time for employee 2.
I don't think it can be typo even in latest policy guide and application form .
I am confused
I have submitted my application on the 29/03/217
With the last RTI/FPS from Feb 2017 , however my visa was expiring in April 2017, had I submitted my application in April and included the march 2017 RTI / FPS it would have completed 12 months of full time for each employee with 30hrs/week rules and I would have at the Safest side .
Shall I post them RTI/FPS from march 2017 as well with a covering letter , will it be considered ? Or I don't need to do anything for now?
Zimb88 , Marcnath
Plz give me some clarification on it
Thanks

There's no harm in sending it. Send it via special delivery. I think it should be sent to the address where the biometric letter came from, but wait for others to confirm.

[marcnath]

Thanks for the reply , but I have just checked application form and the latest policy guide for applicants , it clearly says 30 hours|week or 120 hours / month.
Annex F : Page no: 91
And we follow the policy guidance for applicants not to the case workers .
Secondly : initially in 2014-15 guidance they have given the examples of weekly full time work not monthly and there was a lot of confusion about it so later on UKVi amended the policy guidance and change it to weekly or monthly employment .
According to 30 hours/ week rule I have created employment for 11 months full time employment for 2 works each.
But if I follow 120hrs/month guidance so I have
created 22 months of full time employment for employee 1 and 16 months full time for employee 2.
I don't think it can be typo even in latest policy guide and application form .
I am confused
I have submitted my application on the 29/03/217
With the last RTI/FPS from Feb 2017 , however my visa was expiring in April 2017, had I submitted my application in April and included the march 2017 RTI / FPS it would have completed 12 months of full time for each employee with 30hrs/week rules and I would have at the Safest side .
Shall I post them RTI/FPS from march 2017 as well with a covering letter , will it be considered ? Or I don't need to do anything for now?
Zimb88 , Marcnath
Plz give me some clarification on it
Thanks

There's no harm in sending it. Send it via special delivery. I think it should be sent to the address where the biometric letter came from, but wait for others to confirm.

Agree, it is safer to send it in.

[marcnath]

You need to show 1560 hours/ year each employee.

1) Some people find it easy to just claim 130 hours every month to meet the criteria.

2) “However if you go for 30 hours a week criteria. Then not all months have 4 weeks. Some have 5 weeks.

So in that case some months come upto 120 hours (4 weeks month - 4*30hours) and others 150 hours (5 weeks month - 5*30hours).

In total it should be 1560 hours a year.”

Please correct me if i am wrong.

Yes, this is wrong !!!

Total hours is a wrong way of calculating.

As I quoted from the law, the only thing mentioned in the law is 30 hours / week.

So that means the 2nd part is correct then?

2) “However if you go for 30 hours a week criteria. Then not all months have 4 weeks. Some have 5 weeks.

So in that case some months come upto 120 hours (4 weeks month - 4*30hours) and others 150 hours (5 weeks month - 5*30hours). ??”

There are no months with 5 weeks. There is only one month with 4 weeks and that is February. All the other have 4 weeks + 2 or 3 days.

As me and Zimba have now stated a few times in this thread, the immigration rules only specify 30 hours/week. The guidance has added 120 hrs/month (which I agree with Zimba is a mistake). But, until it is corrected, you may have an argument against a rejection on that basis.

But where you can, try to avoid relying on it.

[Atif786]

Agree, it is safer to send it in.
[/quote]
Hi Marcnath, Thanks for the reply, i am planning to post the March 2017 Rti/Fps with covering letter but do i need to fill in the employment creation table from application form and post it as well because they will probably only consider the hours or Rti/fps for which we have claimed points in the application form?
what you suggest ? and shall i explain them that previous employment table was filled in considering 120 hours as full time however i have recently been suggested that only 130 hours/month are considered as full time .
or could you please rephrase it for me as to how to address this issue ?
thanks

[sm12]

You should definitely say that you met the requirement as per the applicants' guidance (insert a copy of the page with the documents that you are sending).
You should also state that the form puts full time down as 120 hours/month.
Then you should state that you completed the table when you sent the application according to this definition, but that you wanted to send extra documents to show that you also meet the requirement if full-time is taken as 130 hours/month.
And yes, you should say that you are attaching the page from the form again to show how you meet the requirement when calculated on the basis of 130 hours/month.

So extra payslips, FPS documents, page from guidance, page from form filled in again, and cover letter.
Also, if any new employees are included when you fill in the form, then their passports/documents to prove right to work.

[CULLINAN]

You need to show 1560 hours/ year each employee.

1) Some people find it easy to just claim 130 hours every month to meet the criteria.

2) “However if you go for 30 hours a week criteria. Then not all months have 4 weeks. Some have 5 weeks.

So in that case some months come upto 120 hours (4 weeks month - 4*30hours) and others 150 hours (5 weeks month - 5*30hours).

In total it should be 1560 hours a year.”

Please correct me if i am wrong.

Yes, this is wrong !!!

Total hours is a wrong way of calculating.

As I quoted from the law, the only thing mentioned in the law is 30 hours / week.

So that means the 2nd part is correct then?

2) “However if you go for 30 hours a week criteria. Then not all months have 4 weeks. Some have 5 weeks.

So in that case some months come upto 120 hours (4 weeks month - 4*30hours) and others 150 hours (5 weeks month - 5*30hours). ??”

There are no months with 5 weeks. There is only one month with 4 weeks and that is February. All the other have 4 weeks + 2 or 3 days.

As me and Zimba have now stated a few times in this thread, the immigration rules only specify 30 hours/week. The guidance has added 120 hrs/month (which I agree with Zimba is a mistake). But, until it is corrected, you may have an argument against a rejection on that basis.

But where you can, try to avoid relying on it.

Source: Google search

“If you get paid weekly, there are several times a year that you'll take home five paychecks in a month instead of four.“

https://www.thebalance.com/five-paycheck-months-1387871

[CULLINAN]

As per the discussion here:

If we can only go by 30hours/week

Then every month has 4.3 weeks so on the payslip it must be 130hrs (30*4.3) through out for 12 months to qualify for 1560 (130*12) hours because 120hours a month will be only 1440 hours (120*12)

If you go by my argument 30hours/week: Then 120hours for months having 4 paychecks and 150 hours for months having 5 paychecks qualify for 1560 hours also as otherwise you cant differentiate the monthly hours on the payslips.

I am not sure but I did it this way.