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Schengen Visa Application Form - EU/EEA/CH Family Members

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Plum70
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Schengen Visa Application Form - EU/EEA/CH Family Members

Post by Plum70 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:41 am

I have been comparing a few member states' SVA forms and find differences in the variety of (asterisked) questions that should not be completed by FMs of EU/EE/CH nationals.

For instance:

1. The French version: Standard form not requiring employment details, length of stay, funding details etc.

2. The German version: Quite the opposite to (1) - no asterisks on employment/occupation details; date of arrival and departure; confirmation of finger prints previously taken, Schengen visas issued in the last 3 years....Also the German Embassy's website lists 'address in Germany' as one of the details to be provided when applying (by post) but this is asterisked on the form. Perplexing to say the least.

3. The Danish version - slightly better than (2) but still asks for finger printing info, Schengen visas issued in past 3 years as well as intended date of arrival and departure.

So...is there a set standard of questions not to be asked of FMs of EU/EEA/CH or are member states allowed to fashion forms as they deem fit? My searches so far have yielded nothing to confirm either way.

I would like to be able to assert my rights confidently knowing which questions to answer and not.

Thanks.
Last edited by Plum70 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:49 am, edited 2 times in total.

ca.funke
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Re: Schengen Visa Application Form - EU/EEA/CH Family Member

Post by ca.funke » Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:27 am

Edit: [post irrelevant]
Last edited by ca.funke on Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

Plum70
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Post by Plum70 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:48 am

Cheers ca.funke - all changed and working fine now.

Any ideas on the subject?

Jambo
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Post by Jambo » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:36 am


ca.funke
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Post by ca.funke » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:56 am

I wonder the same. Is there one definite version?

If this is so, I would include it into the/my Schengen-Application guideline.
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=102396

Rgds,
Christian

Plum70
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Post by Plum70 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:12 pm

Jambo wrote:See page 27 of Regulation 810/2009 (visa code)
Thanks Jambo. I've read through most of the doc and there seems not to be a set guidance on harmonised application forms.

I am also concerned that member states are now collecting biometric info on applicants. The German application form asks if the applicant has had their finger prints taken (and when), I haven't and will likely apply by post. So I wonder if this means that my visa will not be issued till I physically present at the Embassy for printing. :(

acme4242
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Post by acme4242 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:21 pm

EU law going back to the foundation of the EEC, basically says
for EU family members, the supporting documentation required at application of a visa is limited to the supporting documentation required at application
for an EU family residence card.

See Directives 68/360/EEC, 73/148/EEC, 90/365/EEC and 64/221/EEC

For case law, you look for case law concerning
Right of residence - Residence permit - Third-country national who is a member of the family of a Community national
e.g.
C-157/03 - Commission v Spain (note: pre 2004/38/EC)
1. The requirement for an immigration visa
26. That national of a non-Member State should not be required to show any
independent reason for entering into the territory. His right, as a matter of
Community law, is derived from the right enjoyed by the Community national, so
that to require that person to fulfill formal conditions prior to entry into
national territory constitutes not only a restriction on his (derived) right but
also a restriction on the principal right of the Community national.

31. It is therefore apparent from the provisions of the directives on the
entry of members of the family, as interpreted by the Court, that entry
formalities must be restricted to the expressly specified documents and that any
further immigration procedure is not permissible.

"a document issued by the competent authority of the State of origin
or the State whence they came, proving their relationship"
Nowadays, the supporting document requirements are always based
on this principle, cannot exceed the documents needed to obtain residence card
So the demands from the German Embassy mentioned in the earlier post,
e.g. finger prints and work history of third country family member are a clear law
breaking violation, no dispute.

For Schengen Embassy rules for EU family members, see
Schengen "Handbook for the processing of visa applications and the modification of issued visas"
http://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/polici ... 1620_en.pd

3.6. Supporting documents
In order to prove that the applicant has the right to be issued with an entry visa under the
Directive, he must establish that he is a beneficiary of the Directive. This is done by
presenting documents relevant for the purposes of the three questions referred to above, i.e.
proving that:
• there is an EU citizen from whom the visa applicant can derive any rights;
• the visa applicant is a family member (e.g. a marriage certificate, birth certificate,
proof of dependency, serious health grounds, durability of partnerships …) and his
identity (passport); and
• the visa applicant accompanies or joins an EU citizen (e.g. a proof that the EU
citizen already resides in the host Member State or a confirmation that the EU
citizen will travel to the host Member State).
It is an established principle of EU law in the area of free movement that visa applicants have
the right of choice of the documentary evidence by which they wish to prove that they are
covered by the Directive (i.e. of the family link, dependency …). Member States may,
however, ask for specific documents (e.g. a marriage certificate as the means of proving the
existence of marriage), but should not refuse other means of proof.
For further information in relation to the documentation, see Commission Communication
COM (2009) 313 final34.
This is why there is * sign to exempt EU family members from certain questions, because its actually against EU law to ask them.
any further immigration procedure is not permissible as interpreted by the ECJ Court.
But the rule of law does not stop the German Embassy trying.

Plum70
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Post by Plum70 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:10 pm

Acme you say all this which sounds great but have you realised that:

The French Embassy in London (as of Feb 2012) now requires all visa nationals - no exemptions it seems - to personally present at the embassy for their biometrics to be taken? That is full facial/iris scan and 10 finger prints. The Embassy words it as: "In accordance with the European Council Decision 2004/512/EC, from 6 Feb 2012, the French Consulate will issue biometric visas - this new measure entails the compulsory appearance of all visa nationals (except children under the age of 12) as biometric data (photograph and fingerprints) must be collected." See also EC 2004/512/EC (2).

It appears to have been the commission's decision and vision to include biometrics as part of the VIS at some stage. Nowhere can I find an exemption for EU/EEA/CH family members. This is why I chose not to have my French Schengen visa renewed with the French and turned to the Germans but it seems i'm likely to be caught in the same net.

If anyone can find the exemption in law I would be grateful - thanks!

ca.funke
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Post by ca.funke » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:31 pm

I >>complained<< to the EU about Ireland collecting fingerprints for Irish residence cards in 2008, >>to no avail<<.
Last edited by ca.funke on Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

acme4242
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Post by acme4242 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:39 pm

Plum70 wrote:Acme you say all this which sounds great but have you realised that:

The French Embassy in London (as of Feb 2012) now requires all visa nationals - no exemptions it seems - to personally present at the embassy for their biometrics to be taken? That is full facial/iris scan and 10 finger prints. The Embassy words it as: "In accordance with the European Council Decision 2004/512/EC, from 6 Feb 2012, the French Consulate will issue biometric visas - this new measure entails the compulsory appearance of all visa nationals (except children under the age of 12) as biometric data (photograph and fingerprints) must be collected." See also EC 2004/512/EC (2).

It appears to have been the commission's decision and vision to include biometrics as part of the VIS at some stage. Nowhere can I find an exemption for EU/EEA/CH family members. This is why I chose not to have my French Schengen visa renewed with the French and turned to the Germans but it seems i'm likely to be caught in the same net.

If anyone can find the exemption in law I would be grateful - thanks!
All the case law relates to resident permits, if they demand biometrics
for resident cards, then they can demand it for visas.
Last edited by acme4242 on Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

EUsmileWEallsmile
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Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:53 pm

Plum70 wrote: Nowhere can I find an exemption for EU/EEA/CH family members.
There doesn't appear to be one. I'm not sure what other countries do when they make up national ID cards, but some take more than a photo.

It's just normal in some places and people get on with it.

flyboy
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Switzerland

Post by flyboy » Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:09 pm

Plum, why don't you get a visa from the swiss embassy considering that your spouse is Swiss? And they don't seem to be collecting biometrics yet.
You could apply in person without prior appointment at the Regional Consular Centre

http://ch.vfsglobal.co.uk/pdf/EUSpousevisa-290512.pdf

Plum70
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Post by Plum70 » Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:23 am

flyboy wrote:Plum, why don't you get a visa from the swiss embassy considering that your spouse is Swiss? And they don't seem to be collecting biometrics yet.
You could apply in person without prior appointment at the Regional Consular Centre

http://ch.vfsglobal.co.uk/pdf/EUSpousevisa-290512.pdf
That would have been a good fall back but for one hiccup: I will not be visiting Switzerland this Summer. The document list requires proof of travel like a plane ticket of which I will have none. Sigh...

Plum70
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Post by Plum70 » Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:31 am

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:It's just normal in some places and people get on with it.
How is it "normal" that, in addition to everyone having biometric passports (holding facial and fingerprints data) which can be scanned/read/copied by embassies/border control and God knows who else, (EU FMs who are unfortunately) visa nationals now have to have biometrics taken again for the issuance of Schengen visas?

This is not a balanced procedure as non-EEA FMs who are also non-visa nationals benefit from simply travelling in and out of Schengen without being printed. I strongly feel that there should be one rule governing ALL non-EEA FMs under the Directive 2004/512/EC whether visa nationals or not.

I will research into challenging the Commission on this.

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Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:51 pm

Plum70 wrote:...why don't you get a visa from the swiss embassy considering that your spouse is Swiss?
As a matter of interest, how does Switzerland treat family members of their own citizens? Is there an equivalent Singh provision?

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Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:54 pm

Plum70 wrote:
I will research into challenging the Commission on this.
You are more than entitled to complain and / or challenge.

EUsmileWEallsmile
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Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:57 pm

Plum70 wrote:
EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:It's just normal in some places and people get on with it.
How is it "normal" that...
Perhaps you misunderstood me or I was not clear. What I was saying is that in some countries, it is normal that they have to carry an ID card and such an ID card might contain a photo, biometric data etc.

ca.funke
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Post by ca.funke » Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:41 pm

Plum70 wrote:...That would have been a good fall back but for one hiccup: I will not be visiting Switzerland this Summer. The document list requires proof of travel like a plane ticket of which I will have none. Sigh...
Just open a random online travel web-page, find any flight that matches what you need and print that... :?:

Plum70
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Post by Plum70 » Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:46 pm

ca.funke wrote:
Plum70 wrote:...That would have been a good fall back but for one hiccup: I will not be visiting Switzerland this Summer. The document list requires proof of travel like a plane ticket of which I will have none. Sigh...
Just open a random online travel web-page, find any flight that matches what you need and print that... :?:
Thought about that but the Swiss explicitly say: Transport documentation by plane - airline or e-ticket.

This seems to me that they want to see a valid booked flight for which a ticket is then issued - no good.

I happened on the Austrian Embassy and see that the application is straight forward by appointment. I wonder, if I use it to visit DE (but plan to visit Austria some other time), will this matter? Do I risk the German border guards asking why I have no stamps for Austria?

Plum70
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Post by Plum70 » Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:48 pm

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:
Plum70 wrote:...why don't you get a visa from the swiss embassy considering that your spouse is Swiss?
As a matter of interest, how does Switzerland treat family members of their own citizens? Is there an equivalent Singh provision?
I am not sure but when we enquired at the Embassy few years back the guy seemed to think I could get a multiple entry Schengen visa for free.

Plum70
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Post by Plum70 » Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:49 pm

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:
Plum70 wrote:
EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:It's just normal in some places and people get on with it.
How is it "normal" that...
Perhaps you misunderstood me or I was not clear. What I was saying is that in some countries, it is normal that they have to carry an ID card and such an ID card might contain a photo, biometric data etc.
I misunderstood - apologies.

EUsmileWEallsmile
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Post by EUsmileWEallsmile » Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:00 pm

Plum70 wrote:Do I risk the German border guards asking why I have no stamps for Austria?
All the stamps do is record your points of entry and exit (and of course can be used to determine length of stay).

Where you go within the zone afterwards is up to you. Short answer (or rather question), how would they know?

ca.funke
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Post by ca.funke » Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:12 pm

Plum70 wrote:Do I risk the German border guards asking why I have no stamps for Austria?
Maybe you risk them asking... But if they do - so what?

When applying with the Austrians, you sticked exactly to the rules: You´re planning a Schengen-Trip which starts in Germany, but your main destination is Austria, isn´t it? :)

Plum70 wrote:This seems to me that they want to see a valid booked flight for which a ticket is then issued - no good.
No embassy can ask for issued tickets before the visa is issued. What would you do if the visa is not approved?

Plum70
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Post by Plum70 » Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:39 pm

ca.funke wrote:
Plum70 wrote:Do I risk the German border guards asking why I have no stamps for Austria?
Maybe you risk them asking... But if they do - so what?

When applying with the Austrians, you sticked exactly to the rules: You´re planning a Schengen-Trip which starts in Germany, but your main destination is Austria, isn´t it? :)
I always wanted to spend a very long week in Vienna...:lol:

Plum70 wrote:This seems to me that they want to see a valid booked flight for which a ticket is then issued - no good.
No embassy can ask for issued tickets before the visa is issued. What would you do if the visa is not approved?
You would expect so but seems the Swiss are... I will go for the lovely folks of Austria who I will no doubt visit soon.

Thanks! :wink:

flyboy
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Post by flyboy » Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:16 am

Plum70 wrote:
EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:
Plum70 wrote:...why don't you get a visa from the swiss embassy considering that your spouse is Swiss?
As a matter of interest, how does Switzerland treat family members of their own citizens? Is there an equivalent Singh provision?
I am not sure but when we enquired at the Embassy few years back the guy seemed to think I could get a multiple entry Schengen visa for free.
http://www.admin.ch/ch/f/rs/142_209/a13.html

Art13.L - Visa gratis for spouses and registered partners of swiss citizens.
This applies irrespective whether the swiss citizen is exercising treaty rights or not and no need to be accompanied by or joining swiss citizen, same applies to EEA family members.

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