Recognition of diplomas by GDC via Directive 2004/38/EC

[toabetterchange]

Hi everyone,

I would like to ask for some help regarding this topic that has made me crazy for some time now.

Basically I am a third national dentist with a third national diploma, I have asked the GDC Dental Council to verify my right of recognition of my qualification and they just simply said : that I dont have that right, only they can assess my qualification and they can decide if it is comparable with the national qualifications , if they are not the same , I would need to sit for Dental examinations... I don't even have the opportunity to a compensation measure( an aptitude test)

In the next article says that the Directive for recognition of diplomas are applicable also to family members of EEA national via the Directive 2004/38/EC whether the the family members is a third country national or not, and whether the family member has third country diploma or not, not discrimination...

So can anyone please tell me what to do when a competent autorithy don't follow the rules?

http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/qua ... faq_en.pdf

In the frequently asked questions from the EUROPEAN COMMISSION: GROUP OF COORDINATORS FOR THE RECOGNITION OF PROFESSIONAL QUALIFICATIONS says:

8. APPLICATION OF DIRECTIVE 2005/36/EC TO THIRD COUNTRY CITIZENS AND
TO REFUGEES
Community rules on the recognition of professional qualifications (including rules on the
recognition of third country qualifications) are applicable to third country citizens
fulfilling the requirements of Directive 2004/38/EC on the right of citizens of the Union
and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member
States (i.e. persons being family member of an EU citizen who is exercising his right to
free movement within the EU). Similarly, community rules on the recognition of
professional qualifications apply in the Member State where a migrant has obtained the
statute of long term resident. However, the rights of long-term residents are more limited
than the rights of family members of EU citizens. Indeed, the relevant Directive,
Directive 2003/109/EC on the status of third-country nationals who are long-term
residents, does not apply in the United Kingdom, Ireland and Denmark. Moreover, this
Directive only covers permanent establishment and not temporary provisions of services.


http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/qua ... faq_en.pdf

Thanks

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I am a third national dentist with a third national diploma, I have asked the GDC Dental Council to verify my right of recognition of my qualification and they just simply said : that I dont have that right, only they can assess my qualification and they can decide if it is comparable with the national qualifications , if they are not the same , I would need to sit for Dental examinations... I don't even have the opportunity to a compensation measure( an aptitude test)

When you say "right of recognition of qualification", what do you mean? That they "recognize your qualification" and allow you to practice in the UK right away?

[toabetterchange]

I am a third national dentist with a third national diploma, I have asked the GDC Dental Council to verify my right of recognition of my qualification and they just simply said : that I dont have that right, only they can assess my qualification and they can decide if it is comparable with the national qualifications , if they are not the same , I would need to sit for Dental examinations... I don't even have the opportunity to a compensation measure( an aptitude test)

When you say "right of recognition of qualification", what do you mean? That they "recognize your qualification" and allow you to practice in the UK right away?

That's right, when it is recognised you are allow to work.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Your degree is not from the EU.

So first ONE (of the 27) member state has to evaluate your studies and decide you are qualified. Then you can practice in that member state. That will be the UK.

Once you are authorized to practice in the UK, then it will be a lot easier to move to different EU member state, and that one will have to accept the your UK authorization to practice.

[mcovet]

...just as I interpreted this for our dentist in his previous post. The problem you have is not that YOU are a third country national, but rather that your diploma is from outside the EU. If an EU national obtained one from wherever you got it from, he equally could not rely on the Directive you are quoting.

The thing to remember about the EU is that the Commission and Co. try to get uniformity in many areas and education and professions are among those where they try to implement anti-discrimination measures across Europe. Thus, a 3rd country diploma is neither here nor there, whether you are yourself an EEA national or not. Hope that makes it clear! The discrimination in this case does not arise because an EEA national would be treated the same way as you if he were to obtain a degree from outside the EU.

[toabetterchange]

Your degree is not from the EU.

So first ONE (of the 27) member state has to evaluate your studies and decide you are qualified. Then you can practice in that member state. That will be the UK.

Once you are authorized to practice in the UK, then it will be a lot easier to move to different EU member state, and that one will have to accept the your UK authorization to practice.

Why is that the GMC (General Medical Council) does recognise the"non EU diplomas" of family members of EEA nationals, meaning they dont requiere any assessments of their qualifications neither taking any medical exams before practicing? and

Why is that the GDC(General Dental Council) is the opposite of the GMC?


There is a thread for doctors in the forum,


http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=62784

[mcovet]

I will look into this later to confirm my point. One thing to remember is that each professional body has its different rules. Those unaffected by EU law. So if GMC had that rule regardless of the Directive you wish to rely on, it doesn't mean that GDC would have the same. However, if the person applying had a qualification from another EU country, then BOTH GMC and GDC would have had to accept those or make the person undergo an aptitude test EVEN IF the GDC didn't have the rules for recognising non-UK qualifications, the EU law takes precedence.

I will have a look later again to confirm my view but it seems to make sense.

P.S. don't forget that GMC may mess things up if they misinterpret the Directive. How on earth should an outside EU qualification be allowed to stand equally side by side with the EU qualification? The purpose of the EU is to have uniformity WITHIN the EU in all areas, gradually. By allowing the acceptance of each Member State's qualification (subject to aptitude test) this uniformity can be achieved. How on earth is an outside EU qualification helping to achieve such uniformity. Don't get me wrong, doctors from Russia, Israel, India etc are one of the best, but this has nothing to do with accepting qualifications from those countries!

Your degree is not from the EU.

So first ONE (of the 27) member state has to evaluate your studies and decide you are qualified. Then you can practice in that member state. That will be the UK.

Once you are authorized to practice in the UK, then it will be a lot easier to move to different EU member state, and that one will have to accept the your UK authorization to practice.

Why is that the GMC (General Medical Council) does recognise the"non EU diplomas" of family members of EEA nationals, meaning the dont requiere any assessments of their qualifications neither taking any medical exams before practicing? and

Why is that the GDC(General Dental Council) is the opposite of the GMC?


There is a thread for doctors in the forum,


http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... 4&start=40

[toabetterchange]

Hi,

What do you understand by this :

8. APPLICATION OF DIRECTIVE 2005/36/EC TO THIRD COUNTRY CITIZENS AND
TO REFUGEES
Community rules on the recognition of professional qualifications (including rules on the recognition of third country qualifications) are applicable to third country citizens
fulfilling the requirements of Directive 2004/38/EC on the right of citizens of the Union
and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States (persons being family member of an EU citizen who is exercising his right to free movement within the EU).

The GMC is not misinterpreting the Directive.

In some cases when people that are European or have European passport (third nationals that migrate to EU country) that got their degree outside the EU , the Directive 2005/36/EC does not apply, and the rule is that they can work in new EU country if the applicant has obtained the recognition of the diploma in another EU country first and has worked for 3 YEARS in that EU country, then the Directive applies and should be automatic recognised in the new EU country, but for family members of EEA national who is exercising Treaty Rights should have the same rights as if they were nationals of the host EU country under directive 2004/38/EC.

We can see the same case of overseas doctors family members( graduated in PAKISTAN) of the EU that got the exemption from medical exams in order to practice.

[toabetterchange]

The key point here is: being family member of a EEA national exercising Treaty Rights in the new EU country.


Where is the right to work for those family members?

they should not look at if you are black or white, if you studied here or there, etc....

[toabetterchange]

Why is that in the same GDC website is written the following and they are telling me different thing?


What are the consequences in the UK for the treatment of family members' professional qualifications?

The family member of an EEA national or UK national with enforceable community rights who is a third country national i.e. a non-EEA national, accompanying another member state national who is living in the UK:

who has qualifications from a third country i.e. a non-EEA country, has the right to have those qualifications to be treated equivalently to a national of the UK with a third country qualifications.

If a non- EEA national applied for registration with the GDC and believe that they are entitled to equal treatment as an exempt person, they must provide the following documents to the GDC to prove their entitlement:

certified copy of applicant's valid passport;

certified copy of the passport of the EEA national who the applicant is a family member of;

a certified copy of the visa, EEA family permit or EEA family residence card issued by the relevant EEA member state, showing that they are the family member of an EEA national, and have the right to residence/proving residence in that relevant EEA state for at least three consecutive months;

If applicable, evidence of at least three consecutive months of employment, self-employment, study or self-sufficient residence in another relevant European state;

An original signed and dated letter from the EEA national from whom the applicant derives their rights stating that he/she is moving to work or reside in the UK and that the applicant is joining them

http://www.gdc-uk.org/Dentalprofessiona ... rsons.aspx

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

The key point here is: being family member of a EEA national exercising Treaty Rights in the new EU country.

Where is the right to work for those family members?

they should not look at if you are black or white, if you studied here or there, etc....

non-EU Family members have a right to work. Many many jobs require no official registration. But you are a dentist and there is a certification system for dentists.

Let me put this another way.

If you or your EU partner or a UK citizen had exactly the same training that you do, each one of those people would have to go through exactly the same process of getting their degree/experience recognized before they could practice in the UK.

There should be no difference at all in the process or in what must be produced in order for your experience to be recognized. If there is a difference, then there is a violation of EU law. But if you and the UK citizen have to go through the exact same process, then there is no difference.

[toabetterchange]

Hi Directive,

What do you understand by this:

What are the consequences in the UK for the treatment of family members' professional qualifications?

The family member of an EEA national or UK national with enforceable community rights who is a third country national i.e. a non-EEA national, accompanying another member state national who is living in the UK:

who has qualifications from a third country i.e. a non-EEA country, has the right to have those qualifications to be treated equivalently to a national of the UK with a third country qualifications.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I read it like this:

The family member of an EEA national [...] who has qualifications from a third country i.e. a non-EEA country, has the right to have those qualifications to be treated equivalently to a national of the UK with a third country qualifications.

This is differently worded, but exactly what I said above:

If you or your EU partner or a UK citizen had exactly the same training that you do, each one of those people would have to go through exactly the same process of getting their degree/experience recognized before they could practice in the UK.

[geriatrix]

GMC is bound by the Medical Act and GDC is bound by the Dentist Act.
See also Section 15 (2A) and Section 16 of the Dentist Act.

We can see the same case of overseas doctors family members( graduated in PAKISTAN) of the EU that got the exemption from medical exams in order to practice.

If referring to the following case, where does the member say that the registration has been granted?

I will have to provide a certificate of good standing in order for the application to be assessed further.

If you read Section 19 of the Medical Act, you will note that registration of (supposedly) "exempt persons" by GMC is not automatic - but subject to certain conditions (section 19(2)(c) and 19(3) in particular).

http://www.gdc-uk.org/Dentalprofessiona ... rsons.aspx

The same webpage also states the following:

Rights conferred by this Directive do not extend to a substantive right to have professional qualifications recognised. If you are entitled to be treated as an exempt person in the UK, you are not entitled to automatic recognition of your qualifications.

And you may observe that GMC and GDC are following similar rules, even though individual / personal interpretation of information on GMC / GDC websites seems to suggest differently.

[geriatrix]

IMHO ....

"Right to reside / free movement by virtue of EEA directives" and "recognition by a regulatory authority of a EEA member state of professional qualifications obtained outside EEA" are two different, exclusive matters.

From what little I know, "recognition of professional qualifications obtained outside EEA by a regulatory authority of a EEA member state" cannot be derived simply by "right to reside / free movement by virtue of EEA directives".

The EEA member state where you are exercising / deriving EEA rights must find you "professionally competent" to work in your regulated profession there, and then GMC / GDC will also find you competent (automatically) and in combination with "right to reside / free movement" you will then fall under the category of "exempt persons".

[dradilmahmood]

sushdmehta

so you mean that if the letter of good standing says that X person is fit and good for practice according to law in that particular country

he/she can then be exempted by gmc or gdc???

[geriatrix]

AIUI, letter of "good standing" is evidence of good character; In such case, it will only help fulfil one of the various requirements (e.g. - right to live in UK, possessing recognized qualification(s); professional competency, good character).

[toabetterchange]

AIUI, letter of "good standing" is evidence of good character; which will only fulfil one of the various requirements (e.g. - right to live in UK, possessing recognized qualification(s); professional competency, good character).

Sushdmehta,

Can you tell me what is the reason to post questions for family members' qualifications in the same GDC?

For whom is that information then?

What kind of family members can receive equal treatment then?

Can you tell me what do you understand with the following?

Many people understand it differently.

What are the consequences in the UK for the treatment of family members' professional qualifications?

The family member of an EEA national or UK national with enforceable community rights who is a third country national i.e. a non-EEA national, accompanying another member state national who is living in the UK:
•who has qualifications from the UK, will have a right to equal treatment under Article 24 of Directive 2004/38. However, irrespective of this directive, all individuals with a recognised dental qualification from the UK are eligible for registration in the UK irrespective of nationality.
•who has qualifications from a member state other than the UK, by virtue of Article 24 of 2004/38 is entitled to be treated equivalently to a national of the UK with another member state's qualifications.
•who has qualifications from a third country i.e. a non-EEA country, has the right to have those qualifications to be treated equivalently to a national of the UK with a third country qualifications.


If a non- EEA national applied for registration with the GDC and believe that they are entitled to equal treatment as an exempt person, they must provide the following documents to the GDC to prove their entitlement:
•certified copy of applicant's valid passport;
•certified copy of the passport of the EEA national who the applicant is a family member of;
•a certified copy of the visa, EEA family permit or EEA family residence card

Please note that if you are the family member of an EEA national who has been granted registration by the GDC, you may still require clearance to work in the UK

[geriatrix]

I cannot comment on why GDC states what it states on its website or what people interpret the statements to mean.

My response(s) above are based on my limited understanding of the relevant "laws" (Acts of Parliament) and I have no reason to believe that either (law) states anything that contradicts any relevant EEA directives. I have provided links to, what I believe are, the relevant sections of the Acts - in an effort that it will help others appropriately interpret the statements on the GDC website in context of the underlying applicable law.

[toabetterchange]

Look what the member said :

Just to let you know, I have now managed to obtain an application form from gmc and will be attaching the supporting documentation requested to support my case.I confirmed this with gmc that in order to obtain the exemption you donot need to hold an EU degree!!!! exemption is very much in place !! Will let u know how I progress with this once I send the forms etc

[geriatrix]

Believing in hear-say isn't something I am good at ... proved disastrous for me.

Neither I have stated in any of my responses nor the law states that one may be exempt only if one holds a EU degree! "Recognized overseas qualifications" from non-EEA countries also qualify for exemption - but do you hold a "recognised" qualification?

The questions at hand, I believe, are:
1. Whether just "right to reside / free movement" makes you exempt from sitting registration exams (or following other laid down procedures) for you to get a UK dental licence so that you can practice your profession in UK?, and
2. Whether a "unrecognised medical qualification from a non-EEA state" can be ignored from the professional registration assessment process just because you have "right to reside / free movement"?
3. Does nationality (UK or EEA state) and therefore the right to reside / free movement override the requirement that the applicants must hold a "recognized (EEA/non-EEA) overseas qualification" or demonstrate "competency to a required standard"?

From your perspective, you believe that "right to reside / free movement" overrides everything else - so entitled to full exemption. Unfortunately, I believe otherwise .... (and I hope I am wrong) .... because I don't think there is, what you call, "right to recognition of an unrecognised overseas qualification by virtue of right to reside in UK".


Do note:

Please note that this guidance does not constitute legal advice. Should you have any questions about your rights under EC law, you are strongly advised to consult an appropriately qualified lawyer. The GDC cannot provide such advice.

And I second that.

[toabetterchange]

Believing in hear-say isn't something I am good at ... proved disastrous for me.

Neither I have stated in any of my responses nor the law states that one may be exempt only if one holds a EU degree! "Recognized overseas qualifications" from non-EEA countries also qualify for exemption - but do you hold a "recognised" qualification?

The questions at hand, I believe, are:
1. Whether just "right to reside / free movement" makes you exempt from sitting registration exams (or following other laid down procedures) for you to get a UK dental licence so that you can practice your profession in UK?, and
2. Whether a "unrecognised medical qualification from a non-EEA state" can be ignored from the professional registration assessment process just because you have "right to reside / free movement"?
3. Does nationality (UK or EEA state) and therefore the right to reside / free movement override the requirement that the applicants must hold a "recognized (non-EEA) overseas qualification" or demonstrate "competency to a requires standard"?

From your perspective, you believe that "right to reside / free movement" overrides everything else - so entitled to full exemption. Unfortunately, I believe otherwise .... (and I hope I am wrong).


Do note:

Please note that this guidance does not constitute legal advice. Should you have any questions about your rights under EC law, you are strongly advised to consult an appropriately qualified lawyer. The GDC cannot provide such advice.

And I second that.

I understand your points of view but what is the meaning of this frequently asked question from the EU commission? :

http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/qua ... faq_en.pdf

In the frequently asked questions from the EUROPEAN COMMISSION: GROUP OF COORDINATORS FOR THE RECOGNITION OF PROFESSIONAL QUALIFICATIONS says:

8. APPLICATION OF DIRECTIVE 2005/36/EC TO THIRD COUNTRY CITIZENS AND
TO REFUGEES
Community rules on the recognition of professional qualifications (including rules on the
recognition of third country qualifications) are applicable to third country citizens
fulfilling the requirements of Directive 2004/38/EC on the right of citizens of the Union
and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member
States (i.e. persons being family member of an EU citizen who is exercising his right to
free movement within the EU).

[geriatrix]

I stand to be corrected but what I believe this means that:

1. If you are a family member of an EEA citizen, and
2. possess a qualification from a non-EEA country, and
3. hold registration of the (dental) licencing authority of the EEA member state (A) where you reside and are allowed to practice dental profession there (A),

then no other EEA member state (B,C, D ......) can deny you a licence to practice dental profession in their territory and cannot subject you to additional eligibility restrictions for you to obtain a dental licence to practice.

[geriatrix]

I was wondering:

If "recognised" qualification is of no relevance then what stops a (family member of an EEA citizen) quack with a medical / dental qualification from a "one room medical institution / university in a non-EEA state" to obtain a dental / medical licence to practice in any of the EEA member states?

Next time I need to visit a doctor / dentist, I better check first where he qualified from and if he has trained in an EEA member state!

[toabetterchange]

Neither I have stated in any of my responses nor the law states that one may be exempt only if one holds a EU degree! "Recognized overseas qualifications" from non-EEA countries also qualify for exemption - but do you hold a "recognised" qualification?

I do not hold a recognised qualification at the moment but the Directive 2005/36/EC says: there are Community rules on the recognition of professional qualificationss (including rules on the recognition of third country qualifications) that are applicable to third country citizens fulfilling the requirements of Directive 2004/38/EC, (i.e. persons being family member of an EU citizen who is exercising his right to free movement within the EU).

Once the family member and the EEA partner are exercising Treaty Rights in the relevant EU country both Directives acts (equal treatment as the same national in that EU country), they need to recognise the nonEU qualifications to the family member of an EEA, according to the Directive 2005/36/EC and Directive 2004/38/EC.



Even in the GDC website says:

What are the consequences in the UK for the treatment of family members' professional qualifications?

The family member of an EEA national or UK national with enforceable community rights who is a third country national i.e. a non-EEA national, accompanying another member state national who is living in the UK:

who has qualifications from a third country i.e. a non-EEA country, has the right to have those qualifications to be treated equivalently to a national of the UK with a third country qualifications.






The questions at hand, I believe, are:
1. Whether just "right to reside / free movement" makes you exempt from sitting registration exams (or following other laid down procedures) for you to get a UK dental licence so that you can practice your profession in UK?,

Well, The GDC does exempt you from ORE exams at first and give you another kind of opportunity, procedure called: individual assessment of your qualifications.


From your perspective, you believe that "right to reside / free movement" overrides everything else - so entitled to full exemption. Unfortunately, I believe otherwise .... (and I hope I am wrong) .... because I don't think there is, what you call, "right to recognition of an unrecognised overseas qualification by virtue of right to reside in UK".

To achieve this there are 2 Directives that applies Directive 2005/36/EC and Directive 2004/38/EC for family members of EEA nationals by virtue of moving to another EU country , I dont know about being EEA or UK yourself.


Do note:

Please note that this guidance does not constitute legal advice. Should you have any questions about your rights under EC law, you are strongly advised to consult an appropriately qualified lawyer. The GDC cannot provide such advice.

And I second that.

Yes, because not all the Exempt persons are family members of an EEA joining him/her in a new EU country(UK).

That is how I understand.