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EUFam tough new measures

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

Moderators: Casa, archigabe, CR001, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, meself2, geriatrix, John, ChetanOjha, Administrator

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fatty patty
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EUFam tough new measures

Post by fatty patty » Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:13 am

As EUFam is the most talked about topic on these boards thought I share this....

http://www.independent.ie/national-news ... 11521.html

Its about time that the GNIB will start conducting interviews like they do in States, but I have concerns regarding the genuines as it will become a harrowing experience, thanks to the dodgers, also nothing stopping GNIB extending it to Irish marriage route.

acme4242
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Post by acme4242 » Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:49 am

The huge growth in the number of marriages of convenience has led to the introduction of tough regulations that will allow immigration officials to extensively question newly married applicants for citizenship.
In such cases, an application for citizenship cannot be made until after 5
years of marriage and residence, And the current policy is to ignore the
application for a couple more years.
So how can you say someone married for 7 years is newly married

Or maybe he cannot tell the difference between
applicants for citizenship
and
applicants for 4EUFam residence cards

Obie
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Ireland

Post by Obie » Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:47 am

This newspaper like many others, use citizenship and EU treaty rights in a synonymous manner. They are completely different, and are govern by different authority and competence.I believe the rules are aimed at family members of EU national.
It is pointless to interview family member, who by the time they apply for naturalisation they would have qualified and applied for permanent residency under EU law.

Whatever rules they implement, they cannot use it systematically, or as a matter of routine, as this will be in breach of EU law.

If it helps prevent marriage of convenience, and not aimed at withdrawing right of genuine couple, then i am in support it. With the Irish track record, i believe it is more the latter than the former.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

Southern_Sky
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Post by Southern_Sky » Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:11 pm

''Since the court ruling, the issue has been raised regularly at EU meetings by Justice Minister Dermot Ahern but Ireland needs the support of a majority of member states to tighten the rules.''

2700 claims in one year ...astonishing!

It's unusual that most other EU countries don't appear to have this high rate of sham marriages. Is it just because of the perceived 'attractiveness' or 'ease' of Ireland.
Perhaps the Justice Dept should compare the rules/enforcement used in France, Germany, Sweden etc... I think even the UK has a lower per capita rate of Sham Marriages.

Its interesting that they propose conducting interviews during the citizenship application process. Up until now there appear to be no 'face to face' interviews, just snail mail correspondence. And also deliberately delaying the processing of the application. Perhaps it would be more efficient to prevent the marriages before they happen.

Clearly its weakness (loophole) in the EU law, that is being exploited, and there are many ways to tighten it without infringing on EU citizens freedom of movement rights.

fatty patty
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Location: Irlanda

Post by fatty patty » Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:54 pm

I think the newspaper misquoted there, what they probably meant was not citizenship but permission to stay. Eitherway wether it will be for marriage purposes or citizenship purposes, its a welcome development, but I agree with Obie, I have little faith in INIS/GNIB in delivering it properly considering their track record on other issues especially citizenship and make it a loophole for themselves to harrass/make it "Apprentice, you are fired" kind of interview for the willing families.

walrusgumble
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Post by walrusgumble » Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:43 am

Southern_Sky wrote:''Since the court ruling, the issue has been raised regularly at EU meetings by Justice Minister Dermot Ahern but Ireland needs the support of a majority of member states to tighten the rules.''

2700 claims in one year ...astonishing!

It's unusual that most other EU countries don't appear to have this high rate of sham marriages. Is it just because of the perceived 'attractiveness' or 'ease' of Ireland.
Perhaps the Justice Dept should compare the rules/enforcement used in France, Germany, Sweden etc... I think even the UK has a lower per capita rate of Sham Marriages.

Its interesting that they propose conducting interviews during the citizenship application process. Up until now there appear to be no 'face to face' interviews, just snail mail correspondence. And also deliberately delaying the processing of the application. Perhaps it would be more efficient to prevent the marriages before they happen.

Clearly its weakness (loophole) in the EU law, that is being exploited, and there are many ways to tighten it without infringing on EU citizens freedom of movement rights.
How can it be stopped?

If the authorities tried to stop the marriage, many people here and in Europe would be shouting that it is a breach of the convention ie article 12. you can not win. How are you to prevent the marriages anyway. Not all of the "sham" couples are idiots and could easily convince some registrars if they did their homework right. All they would have to do is read this site for tips.

The EU is the loophole. With the possibility of that Zambratto v Spain case coming into law, despite unanmious dissent from countries like Germany, the current economic climate and concerns of countries, France's latest actions, Brussels should review (at least) the Directive because it certaintly is not the type of europe most member states voted for nor is it right to be upheld by a select and unelected judiciary

As for the interviews, provided that the applicant is permitted to have a legal representative with them, it is the correct approach. It shall help to ensure that language competency are upheld and that the person is actually living in the country. It shall be for the applicant to make their case and answer all questions put to them like any other quasi judicial group.

ca.funke
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Re: EUFam tough new measures

Post by ca.funke » Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:03 pm

independent.ie (last paragraph) wrote:Floodgates

Until 2008, Ireland operated a rule that granted EU treaty rights only to non-EU nationals, who already lived lawfully in another member state.

This prevented widespread abuse of the residency rights but it was struck down by the European Court of Justice and this opened the floodgates for gangs to exploit residency rules.

Since the court ruling, the issue has been raised regularly at EU meetings by Justice Minister Dermot Ahern but Ireland needs the support of a majority of member states to tighten the rules.
What Ireland operated until 2008 (didn´t confirm the date, I hope at least that it correct?), was plainly illegal.

Now "Justice Minister Dermot Ahern regularly raises the issue at EU meetings"..."but Ireland needs the support of a majority of member states to tighten the rules"?

I really wish to know what exactly is the issue he raises?

If it´s about "sham-marriages", I would recommend reading Article 35 of 2004/38/EC:
Article 35 of 2004/38/EC wrote:Article 35

Abuse of rights

Member States may adopt the necessary measures to refuse,
terminate or withdraw any right conferred by this Directive
in
the case of abuse of rights or fraud, such as marriages of conve-
nience
. Any such measure shall be proportionate and subject to
the procedural safeguards provided for in Articles 30 and 31.
Summary:

Mr. Ahern complains about abuse of the system, blaming 2004/38/EC, ignoring that 2004/38/EC gives the state every opportunity to protect themselves from "sham" cases.

All the ECJ asks for is NOT lumping all cases together, i.e. looking at each individual case.

But maybe that´s asking too much...?

Obie
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Ireland

Post by Obie » Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:15 pm

I have always thought the issue is not purely about sham marriages. I believe there are issues with sham marriages, but it has to be acknowledge that they are in the minority. The vast majority of marriages in Ireland are done in good faith. The issues is reducing the number of people who can benefit from these rules, and make the idea of a european marrying a non-european very unattractive and burdensome. They expressed views about number of peopke who can benifit from a liberal interpretation and not about marriage of convenience. Not in one of the metock cases was the argument of sham marriages mentioned. You can't simply impose draconion measures against the majority of genuine couple because of few bad flocks. There was only 2700 applications for residency last year under EU rules, considering this will include children, dependants and members of the same household and direct assendant, i will for simplicity sake say two thirds are by spouses that will be 1800 applications, let say a quarter are suspicious marriages, that will be about 400 marriages. Can a capable state say, because of these minority suspicious cases, which i believe they are capable of handling, everyone should be punished. That is simply outrageous.

For people to come to this forum and blame innocent members, who are simply providing assistance to europe's most marginal and vulnerable group (genuine migrant and couples), of providing tips and assistance to immigration cheats is wrong and unfair, and demonstrates a lack of understanding of the functions and duties of the executive.

If Ireland's concerns are well founded, they would have been able to secure the support of lots of states for their restrictive proposal.

The authorities should use the measures provided by community law to combat abuse, and stop acting as a spoilt brat.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

fatty patty
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Location: Irlanda

Post by fatty patty » Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:05 pm

If Ireland's concerns are well founded, they would have been able to secure the support of lots of states for their restrictive proposal.
Unfortunately Irish concerns are not well founded, what Dermot's intention is to stop the treaty rights completely. c.a.funke stipulated Article 35 of 2004/38/EC which has the clause if a member state thinks something is fishy they can act. So him jetting around Brussels and other EU capitals for this is simply a pleasure trip and x-mas shopping as far as I am concerned. And his modus operandi is scary, no wonder sudden media barrage of EU treaty coming under review, thats press releases out of DoJ fax machines i tell ya to stir up the locals.

walrusgumble
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Re: EUFam tough new measures

Post by walrusgumble » Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:53 am

ca.funke wrote:
independent.ie (last paragraph) wrote:Floodgates

Until 2008, Ireland operated a rule that granted EU treaty rights only to non-EU nationals, who already lived lawfully in another member state.

This prevented widespread abuse of the residency rights but it was struck down by the European Court of Justice and this opened the floodgates for gangs to exploit residency rules.

Since the court ruling, the issue has been raised regularly at EU meetings by Justice Minister Dermot Ahern but Ireland needs the support of a majority of member states to tighten the rules.
What Ireland operated until 2008 (didn´t confirm the date, I hope at least that it correct?), was plainly illegal.

Now "Justice Minister Dermot Ahern regularly raises the issue at EU meetings"..."but Ireland needs the support of a majority of member states to tighten the rules"?

I really wish to know what exactly is the issue he raises?

If it´s about "sham-marriages", I would recommend reading Article 35 of 2004/38/EC:
Article 35 of 2004/38/EC wrote:Article 35

Abuse of rights

Member States may adopt the necessary measures to refuse,
terminate or withdraw any right conferred by this Directive
in
the case of abuse of rights or fraud, such as marriages of conve-
nience
. Any such measure shall be proportionate and subject to
the procedural safeguards provided for in Articles 30 and 31.
Summary:

Mr. Ahern complains about abuse of the system, blaming 2004/38/EC, ignoring that 2004/38/EC gives the state every opportunity to protect themselves from "sham" cases.

All the ECJ asks for is NOT lumping all cases together, i.e. looking at each individual case.

But maybe that´s asking too much...?
Artilce 35 is a very short and vague provision. It provides no uniformed guidelines.Ahern refers to the aim is also to deal with attempts of a refused couple to go elsewhere in europe to to get married and the position of third country nationals who enter the eu illegally or become illegal in time. It is a matter that some countries are begining to open their eyes to. Any attempts to deal with this may run foul of the Directive or Convention. Therefore, the member states are seeking guidelines from Brussels as to how they can go about this fairly and lawfully without being hauled to the courts.

acme4242
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Posts: 604
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Re: EUFam tough new measures

Post by acme4242 » Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:42 am

walrusgumble wrote: Artilce 35 is a very short and vague provision. It provides no uniformed guidelines.Ahern refers to the aim is also to deal with attempts of a refused couple to go elsewhere in europe to to get married and the position of third country nationals who enter the eu illegally or become illegal in time. It is a matter that some countries are begining to open their eyes to. Any attempts to deal with this may run foul of the Directive or Convention. Therefore, the member states are seeking guidelines from Brussels as to how they can go about this fairly and lawfully without being hauled to the courts.
Now Now, the Dept already have clear guidelines from the EU concerning how to remove, or deny a residency permit in the individual case of a sham marriage, and the Dept have removed a grand total of zero.

There is something suspicious in the way the Dept are making so much drama and publicity about sham marriages, to try and pass over the top draconian laws and powers that are not needed. While not using already existing powers or even making fraud marriages a simple criminal offense. Dealing with the individual offenders instead of attacking everyone with collective punishment.

Here are the instructions from the EU Commission
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... FIN:EN:PDF
Brussels, 2.7.2009
COM(2009) 313 final

COMMUNICATION FROM THE COMMISSION
TO THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND THE COUNCIL
on guidance for better transposition and application of Directive 2004/38/EC on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States

4. ABUSE AND FRAUD
Community law cannot be relied in case of abuse 55. Article 35 allows Member States to take effective and necessary measures to fight against abuse and fraud in areas falling within the material scope of Community law on free movement of persons by refusing, terminating or withdrawing any right conferred by the Directive in the case of abuse of rights or fraud, such as marriages of convenience. Any such measure must be proportionate and subject to the procedural safeguards provided for in the Directive

Community law promotes the mobility of EU citizens and protects those who have made use of it 57. There is no abuse where EU citizens and their family members obtain a right of residence under Community law in a Member State other than that of the EU citizen’s nationality as they are benefiting from an advantage inherent in the exercise of the right of free movement protected by the Treaty 58 , regardless of the purpose of their move to that State 59. By the same token, Community law protects EU citizens who return home after having exercised their free movement rights.

4.1. Concepts of abuse and fraud
4.1.1. Fraud
For the purposes of the Directive, fraud may be defined as deliberate deception or contrivance made to obtain the right of free movement and residence under the Directive. In the context of the Directive, fraud is likely to be limited to forgery of documents or false representation of a material fact concerning the conditions attached to the right of residence. Persons who have been issued with a residence document only as a result of fraudulent conduct in respect of which they have been convicted, may have their rights under the Directive refused, terminated or withdrawn 60.

4.1.2. Abuse
For the purposes of the Directive, abuse may be defined as an artificial conduct entered into solely with the purpose of obtaining the right of free movement and residence under Community law which, albeit formally observing of the conditions laid down by Community rules, does not comply with the purpose of those rules 61.

4.2. Marriages of convenience
Recital 28 defines marriages of convenience for the purposes of the Directive as marriages contracted for the sole purpose of enjoying the right of free movement and residence under the Directive that someone would not have otherwise. A marriage cannot be considered as a marriage of convenience simply because it brings an immigration advantage, or indeed any other advantage. The quality of the relationship is immaterial to the application of Article 35. The definition of marriages of convenience can be extended by analogy to other forms of relationships contracted for the sole purpose of enjoying the right of free movement and residence, such as (registered) partnership of convenience, fake adoption or where an EU citizen declares to be a father of a third country child to convey nationality and a right of residence on the child and its mother, knowing that he is not its father and not willing to assume parental responsibilities. Measures taken by Member States to fight against marriages of convenience may not be such as to deter EU citizens and their family members from making use of their right to free movement or unduly encroach on their legitimate rights. They must not undermine the effectiveness of Community law or discriminate on grounds of nationality.

When interpreting the notion of abuse in the context of the Directive, due attention must be given to the status of the EU citizen. In accordance with the principle of supremacy of Community law, the assessment of whether Community law was abused must be carried out in the framework of Community law, and not with regard to national migration laws. The Directive does not prevent Member States from investigating individual cases where there is a well-founded suspicion of abuse. However, Community law prohibits systematic checks 62.

Member States may rely on previous analyses and experience showing a clear correlation between proven cases of abuse and certain characteristics of such cases. In order to avoid creating unnecessary burdens and obstacles, it is possible to identify a set of indicative criteria suggesting that there is unlikely to be an abuse of Community rights:

Member States may define a set of indicative criteria suggesting the possible intention to abuse the rights conferred by the Directive for the sole purpose of contravening national immigration laws. National authorities may in particular take into account the following factors:

• the couple have never met before their marriage;
• the couple are inconsistent about their respective personal details, about the circumstances of their first meeting, or about other important personal information concerning them;
• the couple do not speak a language understood by both;
• evidence of a sum of money or gifts handed over in order for the marriage to be contracted (with the exception of money or gifts given in the form of a dowry in cultures where this is common practice);
• the past history of one or both of the spouses contains evidence of previous marriages of convenience or other forms of abuse and fraud to acquire a right of residence;
• development of family life only after the expulsion order was adopted;

=====================
References

53
AG Stix-Hackl in case C-441/02 Commission v Germany
54
Case 36/75 Rutili (paras 37-39)
55
Cases 33/74 van Binsbergen (para 13), C-370/90 Singh (para 24) and C-212/97 Centros (paras 24-25)
56
Case C-127/08 Metock (paras 74-75)
57
Cases C-370/90 Singh, C-291/05 Eind and C-60/00 Carpenter
58
Cases C-212/97 Centros (para 27) and C-147/03 Commission v Austria (paras 67-68 )
59
Cases C-109/01 Akrich (para 55) and C-1/05 Jia (para 31)
60
Cases C-285/95 Kol (para 29) and C-63/99 Gloszczuk (para 75)
61
Cases C-110/99 Emsland-Stärke (para 52 et seq.) and C-212/97 Centros (para 25)

walrusgumble
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Location: ireland

Re: EUFam tough new measures

Post by walrusgumble » Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:59 am

acme4242 wrote:
walrusgumble wrote: Artilce 35 is a very short and vague provision. It provides no uniformed guidelines.Ahern refers to the aim is also to deal with attempts of a refused couple to go elsewhere in europe to to get married and the position of third country nationals who enter the eu illegally or become illegal in time. It is a matter that some countries are begining to open their eyes to. Any attempts to deal with this may run foul of the Directive or Convention. Therefore, the member states are seeking guidelines from Brussels as to how they can go about this fairly and lawfully without being hauled to the courts.
Now Now, the Dept already have clear guidelines from the EU concerning how to remove, or deny a residency permit in the individual case of a sham marriage, and the Dept have removed a grand total of zero.

There is something suspicious in the way the Dept are making so much drama and publicity about sham marriages, to try and pass over the top draconian laws and powers that are not needed. While not using already existing powers or even making fraud marriages a simple criminal offense. Dealing with the individual offenders instead of attacking everyone with collective punishment.

Here are the instructions from the EU Commission
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... FIN:EN:PDF
Brussels, 2.7.2009
COM(2009) 313 final

COMMUNICATION FROM THE COMMISSION
TO THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND THE COUNCIL
on guidance for better transposition and application of Directive 2004/38/EC on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States

4. ABUSE AND FRAUD
Community law cannot be relied in case of abuse 55. Article 35 allows Member States to take effective and necessary measures to fight against abuse and fraud in areas falling within the material scope of Community law on free movement of persons by refusing, terminating or withdrawing any right conferred by the Directive in the case of abuse of rights or fraud, such as marriages of convenience. Any such measure must be proportionate and subject to the procedural safeguards provided for in the Directive

Community law promotes the mobility of EU citizens and protects those who have made use of it 57. There is no abuse where EU citizens and their family members obtain a right of residence under Community law in a Member State other than that of the EU citizen’s nationality as they are benefiting from an advantage inherent in the exercise of the right of free movement protected by the Treaty 58 , regardless of the purpose of their move to that State 59. By the same token, Community law protects EU citizens who return home after having exercised their free movement rights.

4.1. Concepts of abuse and fraud
4.1.1. Fraud
For the purposes of the Directive, fraud may be defined as deliberate deception or contrivance made to obtain the right of free movement and residence under the Directive. In the context of the Directive, fraud is likely to be limited to forgery of documents or false representation of a material fact concerning the conditions attached to the right of residence. Persons who have been issued with a residence document only as a result of fraudulent conduct in respect of which they have been convicted, may have their rights under the Directive refused, terminated or withdrawn 60.

4.1.2. Abuse
For the purposes of the Directive, abuse may be defined as an artificial conduct entered into solely with the purpose of obtaining the right of free movement and residence under Community law which, albeit formally observing of the conditions laid down by Community rules, does not comply with the purpose of those rules 61.

4.2. Marriages of convenience
Recital 28 defines marriages of convenience for the purposes of the Directive as marriages contracted for the sole purpose of enjoying the right of free movement and residence under the Directive that someone would not have otherwise. A marriage cannot be considered as a marriage of convenience simply because it brings an immigration advantage, or indeed any other advantage. The quality of the relationship is immaterial to the application of Article 35. The definition of marriages of convenience can be extended by analogy to other forms of relationships contracted for the sole purpose of enjoying the right of free movement and residence, such as (registered) partnership of convenience, fake adoption or where an EU citizen declares to be a father of a third country child to convey nationality and a right of residence on the child and its mother, knowing that he is not its father and not willing to assume parental responsibilities. Measures taken by Member States to fight against marriages of convenience may not be such as to deter EU citizens and their family members from making use of their right to free movement or unduly encroach on their legitimate rights. They must not undermine the effectiveness of Community law or discriminate on grounds of nationality.

When interpreting the notion of abuse in the context of the Directive, due attention must be given to the status of the EU citizen. In accordance with the principle of supremacy of Community law, the assessment of whether Community law was abused must be carried out in the framework of Community law, and not with regard to national migration laws. The Directive does not prevent Member States from investigating individual cases where there is a well-founded suspicion of abuse. However, Community law prohibits systematic checks 62.

Member States may rely on previous analyses and experience showing a clear correlation between proven cases of abuse and certain characteristics of such cases. In order to avoid creating unnecessary burdens and obstacles, it is possible to identify a set of indicative criteria suggesting that there is unlikely to be an abuse of Community rights:

Member States may define a set of indicative criteria suggesting the possible intention to abuse the rights conferred by the Directive for the sole purpose of contravening national immigration laws. National authorities may in particular take into account the following factors:

• the couple have never met before their marriage;
• the couple are inconsistent about their respective personal details, about the circumstances of their first meeting, or about other important personal information concerning them;
• the couple do not speak a language understood by both;
• evidence of a sum of money or gifts handed over in order for the marriage to be contracted (with the exception of money or gifts given in the form of a dowry in cultures where this is common practice);
• the past history of one or both of the spouses contains evidence of previous marriages of convenience or other forms of abuse and fraud to acquire a right of residence;
• development of family life only after the expulsion order was adopted;

=====================
References

53
AG Stix-Hackl in case C-441/02 Commission v Germany
54
Case 36/75 Rutili (paras 37-39)
55
Cases 33/74 van Binsbergen (para 13), C-370/90 Singh (para 24) and C-212/97 Centros (paras 24-25)
56
Case C-127/08 Metock (paras 74-75)
57
Cases C-370/90 Singh, C-291/05 Eind and C-60/00 Carpenter
58
Cases C-212/97 Centros (para 27) and C-147/03 Commission v Austria (paras 67-68 )
59
Cases C-109/01 Akrich (para 55) and C-1/05 Jia (para 31)
60
Cases C-285/95 Kol (para 29) and C-63/99 Gloszczuk (para 75)
61
Cases C-110/99 Emsland-Stärke (para 52 et seq.) and C-212/97 Centros (para 25)

i am aware of that communication, but the problem is, that it is not binding. it should be put into the directive itself.

. all the case law you referred to does not deal with that and in fairness, despite breaking immigration laws, none of the parties in the cases like metock or akrich were questioned as to the genuiness of their marriages in the first place!!!! the problem was that one was illegal and trying dodge legal deprtations in one country. metock says legality is irrelevant, it says nothing about sham marriages just a brief quote about article 35

as for removing a grand zero, are you sure about that? not all were able to afford lawyers and attract publicity. for those cases that the gardai have now publicly acted on, if you think that they only stumbled on these now without months of investigations then you would be mistaken. but, as due course, time will tell. also another note to point out, its only now the papers are turning their attention to these issues as the powers of and sympathy towards certain groups like rac is waning.sure isn't it all cheap and sensational news for them?

by the way, the irish authorities had a hand in that communication during the lisbon 1 debates and again in 2. a clever couple can still get behind it

acme4242
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Posts: 604
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:03 pm

Post by acme4242 » Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:30 pm

wlarusgumble wrote: as for removing a grand zero, are you sure about that?
Yes I am, well besides this forum, there is this outside source.
[b]ICI Bulletin[/b] wrote: The ICI is unaware of any instance where the Government has withdrawn a person's residence permit on the grounds that they underwent a marriage of convenience.
wlarusgumble wrote: one was illegal and trying dodge legal deprtations in one country
If one where undocumented, and then became documented
via a genuine uncontested marriage, I fail to see a valid
reason why anyone should hold begrudgery.
The Americans don't deport undocumented Irish who document themselves.
Why would you want to deport undocumented Americans who get documented in Ireland.

If its a fraud marriage, follow due process and lawful conviction.
Should not be at discretion of anonymous bad minded, cold hearted
bureaucrat, which is the current unjust sham.

Locked