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how does the home office find out absences ?

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jimquk
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Post by jimquk » Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:25 am

Badmaash, I sympathise with your basic position, but not your approach. Let's be realistic about this, the immigration system isn't designed to be "fair", it's designed to keep out people not lucky enough to be born with a different nationality unless it appears that the UK has something to gain from them. The system is, in my view, unjust in itself (most UK people would disagree), and is also full of manifest injustices in its execution.

The problem is not with individual ECOs etc, the problem is with the attitude of the government and the bulk of the electorate toward immigration. It is unlikely that displaying attitudes of hatred will help to change this.

Personally I have no problem about people finding ways to get around the system, but but "fishing" for dishonest strategies is also likely to not work in the end. The best way is to take time and study, through these boards and through talking to people in all parts of the system, and understand how things work, what may succeed and what will definitely not work. Understanding this takes a lot of time and effort, there is no quick fix.

Immigration is like a monster. If you want to defeat it, you must know your enemy. Good luck.
The Refused are coming day-by-day nearer to freedom.

avjones
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Post by avjones » Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:41 am

You've asked various questions about the tests to be applied for indefinite leave to remain as a spouse, here are some answers!

The Immigration Rules:

"Requirements for indefinite leave to remain for the spouse or civil partner of a person present and settled in the United Kingdom

287. (a) The requirements for indefinite leave to remain for the spouse or civil partner of a person present and settled in the United Kingdom are that:

(i)(a) the applicant was admitted to the United Kingdom or given an extension of stay for a period of 2 years in accordance with paragraphs 281 to 286 of these Rules and has completed a period of 2 years as the spouse or civil partner of a person present and settled in the United Kingdom; or

(b) the applicant was admitted to the United Kingdom or given an extension of stay for a period of 2 years in accordance with paragraphs 295AA to 295F of these Rules and during that 2 year period married or formed a civil partnership the person whom he or she was admitted or granted an extension of stay to join and has completed a period of 2 years as the unmarried or same sex partner and then the spouse or civil partner of a person present and settled in the United Kingdom; or

(c) was admitted to the United Kingdom in accordance with leave granted under paragraph 282(c) of these rules; and

(ii) the applicant is still the spouse or civil partner of the person he or she was admitted or granted an extension of stay to join and the marriage is subsisting; and

(iii) each of the parties intends to live permanently with the other as his or her spouse or civil partner; and

(iv) there will be adequate accommodation for the parties and any dependants without recourse to public funds in accommodation which they own or occupy exclusively; and

(v) the parties will be able to maintain themselves and any dependants adequately without recourse to public funds; and

(vi) the applicant has sufficient knowledge of the English language and sufficient knowledge about life in the United Kingdom, unless he is under the age of 18 or aged 65 or over at the time he makes his application."



So the financial test is set out there - no recourse to public funds, similar to the test for getting the spouse visa to start with.

Time outside the UK - the BIA guidance to caseworkers states:

There is no specific requirement in the Rules that the entire probationary period must be spent in the United Kingdom. For example, where an applicant has spent a limited period outside of the United Kingdom in connection with his employment, this should not count against him. However, if he has spent the majority of the period overseas, there
may be reason to doubt that all the requirements of the Rules have been met. Each case must be judged on its merits, taking into account reasons for travel, length of absences and whether the applicant and sponsor travelled and lived together during the time spent outside the United Kingdom. These factors will need to be considered against the requirements of the Rules.


In relation to what is adequate funds under the Rules, the case law says it must be what the family as a whole would get under income support:

It is extremely undesirable that the Rules should be interpreted in such a way as to envisage immigrant families existing (and hence being required to exist, because social security benefits are not available to them) on resources less than those which would be available through the social security system to citizen families. To do so is to encourage the view that immigrant families need less, or can be expected to live on less, and in certain areas of the country would be prone to create whole communities living at a lower standard than even the poorest of British citizens. It is for this reason that a number of Tribunal cases, including Islam (13183), Momotaz Begum (18699), Uvovo (00 TH 01450) (which alone was the subject of reference by the Immigration Judge in this case) and RB [2004] UKIAT 00142 have held that the basic task for Appellants attempting to show that there maintenance will be "adequate" is to show that they will have as much as they would have if they were able to claim income support. Similar considerations apply to the different benefit structure when there is a disabled person in the family, as Munibun Nisa v ECO Islamabad [2002] UKIAT01369 shows. There have been one or two cases which have indicated that a frugal life style can be taken into account in deciding whether maintenance would be "adequate", but in our view those cases should not be followed. In particular, we doubt whether it would ever be right to say that children could be maintained "adequately" at less than the level which would be available to the family on income support, merely because one of their parents asserts that the family will live frugally. The purpose of the requirement of adequacy is to ensure that a proper standard, appropriate to a family living in a not inexpensive western society, is available to those who seek to live here.
I am not, and cannot, offer legal advice to particular people. I can only discuss general areas of immigration law.

People should always consider obtaining professional advice about their own particular circumstances.

aboudi
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Post by aboudi » Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:39 pm

I have had my subject access request information on myself and i have been in and out of the country loads, however the only two landing cards they sent me copies off are the ones that i had renewed my leave at airport (back in 1997 and 1998 ) they did not send me any of the other ones so i assume they are not stored electronically rather than just filed away somewhere... Furthermore on these cards they dont write how long you have been away...... at least the one they send me copies off didnt mention this although i have had just come back from a 2 months summer break at the time.... hope this helps.

badmaash
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Post by badmaash » Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:01 pm

in regards to the financial test just say somebody is sick and is unable to work due to his sickness is this taken into account ?

SYH
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Post by SYH » Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:29 pm

badmaash wrote:in regards to the financial test just say somebody is sick and is unable to work due to his sickness is this taken into account ?
I dont know about the rest of you but I am getting a bit annoyed with these hypotheticals.
Would you mind setting out your complete story badmaash instead of coming up with all these excuses for not meeting criteria

badmaash
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Post by badmaash » Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:54 pm

the scenario is here to syh

a person comes to the uk on a spouse visa married to a uk national when their spouse visa comes to a end they would have spent anything between 6-12 months away form the uk both of them being togeather whilst abroad

also during the 2 yeard period the husband is unable to work due to illness which prevents him working
so he claims benefit for himself and for their child who is not under any immigration control
but not for his wife due to no recourse to public funds
in the uk they live with his parents who own their home where they dont pay anything for rent or utilities

sakura
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Post by sakura » Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:57 pm

badmaash wrote:the scenario is here to syh

a person comes to the uk on a spouse visa married to a uk national when their spouse visa comes to a end they would have spent anything between 6-12 months away form the uk both of them being togeather whilst abroad

also during the 2 yeard period the husband is unable to work due to illness which prevents him working
so he claims benefit for himself and for their child who is not under any immigration control
but not for his wife due to no recourse to public funds
in the uk they live with his parents who own their home where they dont pay anything for rent or utilities
So why doesn't the wife go and work? There are no restrictions on her working....

badmaash
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Post by badmaash » Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:53 pm

because they have a child who is 4 months old

sakura
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Post by sakura » Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:35 pm

badmaash wrote:because they have a child who is 4 months old
Well if the husband is staying at home, why doesn't she do part time? Can they really survive only on JSA? Or is there any other source of income? Also, it depends on what type of illness you have. If you are unable to go back to work or will be on long term benefits...

badmaash
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Post by badmaash » Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:48 pm

well it seems to be along term illness (OCD, coprallalia clinical depression) so it does not seem he will go back to work this could be for many years , also if he gets dla middle rate then his wife will be able to get carers allowance as long as she has indefinate leave

the baby is only about 3 months old and is breastfeeding and by the time visa expires he will be 1 and half years old so he is a small boy who needs to be looked after

but he does have between 7-10 k savings which will stay there in the bank till he can get indefinate leave as he does not pay for anything as he lives with his mum and ad they pay for all costs from food to bils and there is no rent as his mum owns the home

so he will be claiming for himself income support , and child benefit and child tax credit

Jeff Albright
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Re: how does the home office find out absences ?

Post by Jeff Albright » Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:35 pm

badmaash wrote: how would then the home office now if this person left or entered the country ?
They don't unless you tell them yourself. When you enter, you fill in the landing card, which is stored at the Landing Cards Unit and nowhere else.
That's all the information they have on you.
If you enter the country for the first time, the LC is the only evidence of your arrival. The HO file is not open until you apply for further leave to remain in-country.
If you re-enter the country after you have already been here, the fact that you left and return will not show up anything on the Home Office computer systems unless you report it to the Home Office yourself. The LCs are not linked to files automatically. When you are making a request for disclosure, this is when a copy of your LC is linked to your file.

badmaash
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Post by badmaash » Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:01 pm

thank you geoff

another questian if somebody has a spouse and she is ona spouse visa

and the husband during the 2 year period is unemployed and claims bebefit for himself

but the she does not claim anything

and they have a child who is a foreign national on right of aobde

could they refuse to give ilr

is this is valid reason

SYH
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Re: how does the home office find out absences ?

Post by SYH » Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:07 pm

Jeff Albright wrote:
badmaash wrote: how would then the home office now if this person left or entered the country ?
They don't unless you tell them yourself. When you enter, you fill in the landing card, which is stored at the Landing Cards Unit and nowhere else.
That's all the information they have on you.
If you enter the country for the first time, the LC is the only evidence of your arrival. The HO file is not open until you apply for further leave to remain in-country.
If you re-enter the country after you have already been here, the fact that you left and return will not show up anything on the Home Office computer systems unless you report it to the Home Office yourself. The LCs are not linked to files automatically. When you are making a request for disclosure, this is when a copy of your LC is linked to your file.
Are you serious, so if you make a SAR, then they link it all up???

badmaash
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Post by badmaash » Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:14 pm

syh

what is sar ?

basicly they can never find out when you left the country, so even if you were away for longtime you could just say 90 days for example they will not know

amd also on set m is form i cant see where it ask your for absences is that correct ?

badmaash
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Post by badmaash » Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:17 pm

also just say someone has no evenly spreadout documeants over the last 2 years and most documents are to do with final 12 months

badmaash
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Post by badmaash » Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:32 pm

if somebody os on spouse visa and there passport expires and the entry clearance is on the old passport so they rip the page out where the entry clearance is and keep that page with the new passport will there be any trouble

SYH
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Post by SYH » Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:50 pm

badmaash wrote:if somebody os on spouse visa and there passport expires and the entry clearance is on the old passport so they rip the page out where the entry clearance is and keep that page with the new passport will there be any trouble
Yeah that's real trouble, why would you do something so ludicrous. I think you are taking thei piss

Wanderer
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Post by Wanderer » Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:55 pm

An chéad stad eile Stáisiún Uí Chonghaile....

badmaash
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Post by badmaash » Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:24 pm

wanderer looking like that im sure many people will want to marry you

why
because you look different

badmaash
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Post by badmaash » Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:25 pm

now a serious question

is spouse visa in expired passport valid when person carries both his new and old passport

avjones
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Post by avjones » Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:09 am

badmaash wrote:in regards to the financial test just say somebody is sick and is unable to work due to his sickness is this taken into account ?
Yes, it would be taken into account. It might well show that the parties can't maintain themselves without recourse to public funds.
I am not, and cannot, offer legal advice to particular people. I can only discuss general areas of immigration law.

People should always consider obtaining professional advice about their own particular circumstances.

avjones
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Post by avjones » Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:11 am

badmaash wrote:because they have a child who is 4 months old
So? The husband isn't working, her in-laws are around, why can't she work?

I had my first day back in court when my son was 5 weeks old, and went back part-time from when he was 3 months and full-time from 6 months.
I am not, and cannot, offer legal advice to particular people. I can only discuss general areas of immigration law.

People should always consider obtaining professional advice about their own particular circumstances.

avjones
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Post by avjones » Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:12 am

badmaash wrote: the baby is only about 3 months old and is breastfeeding and by the time visa expires he will be 1 and half years old so he is a small boy who needs to be looked after
Again - so? I'm still breast-feeding my 2 year old son, and I've been back at work since he was 3 months old. These are excuses not reasons.
I am not, and cannot, offer legal advice to particular people. I can only discuss general areas of immigration law.

People should always consider obtaining professional advice about their own particular circumstances.

avjones
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Post by avjones » Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:13 am

badmaash wrote:
basicly they can never find out when you left the country, so even if you were away for longtime you could just say 90 days for example they will not know
they may do. AND LYING IS NOT A GOOD IDEA.
I am not, and cannot, offer legal advice to particular people. I can only discuss general areas of immigration law.

People should always consider obtaining professional advice about their own particular circumstances.

badmaash
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Post by badmaash » Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:15 pm

i think yes lying is not a good idea and honesty is best policy i was just writing and asking to see if their are any loopholes and one who takes a loophole out of necessity is different from one who is outright blatantly lying

now in regards to my application i have 3 problems which i need solving so i hope anyone can help

is that we will hava long absence anyhting between 7-9 months
so as we know if you can prove your ties to the uk how do i do that
bearing in mind me and my wife have been abroad all this time together

also part of that time has been in to different countries but i can get a letter from the place where i did some studies saying i was there for so and so period (they can either email it to me or post it to me to the uk from north africa)

which would be better ?

2) when the visaa was granted we entered 15 days after the date of issue will this be a problem ?
as went on holiday in middle east before coming to uk due to free stopover

3) due to my sickness i am unable to work and also we have a small chil
d and my wife does not want to work as she is a housewife

and as i cant work i will have to claim benefits for me and the child
but i wont claim for her as she is not entitled

also my parents can support me but they are in reciept of benefits but even though they are they are in fact supporting us as we live at their home on a permenant basis
and also they pay for all utilities internet and virtually all foods costs to and take no meony for rent from us

and from i what i read there is a big chance they would reject us for ilr if we could not show one of us is working

but my aunty she is a prominent business women and she could give us the difference we lose on income support because of my wife being on no recourse to public funds
so she could set up a direct debit would this be acceptable with bia

wait for advice ?

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