MUM ON RETIREMENT VISA AND SISTER ON DEPENDENT

[totalcontrol1]

The question here is regarding my mother and sister who is 22years old and my mum who will be 60 next year. Having lost my father 7 years ago i look after my mother and sister's affairs, who has no educational background and is totally dependant on my mother and myself and has never worked in her life and is no way capable of supporting herself(earning a living).Further, she suffers from severe depression, but can get by her daily routine in life like a very normal person.
My mother i know would qualify on the retirement visa as she can show a yearly income of £25k. Further, i am a landlord by proffesion and live in a 4 bed house with my wife and 2 kids so accomodating them isn't a probem at all and taking any sort of gurantee isnt a problem either.
They have been coming in and out of UK since 1996 and after the death of my father i applied for their 10 year multiple entry visa which was succesful in 2003 with all sorts of financial supporting documents.So they usually go out for 2 weeks after ALMOST 6 mnths and come back in and live with me, for the rest of the year.
Now, my question to anyone who can help us is can we apply for my sister as a dependant, if yes what would be the procedure and ON what sort of grounds,what are the chances ?? further, i also must mention we are originally from kenya, and migrated in 1983 to India for educational purpose, adopting India as our permanent base we dont have any relatives there and my mum and sister ,although holding kenyan citizenship still make all application from India as we have maintained a base there.Although we have reletives in Kenya, but we havn't been there for like 20 years on a permanent basis, and have only been there on a holiday. I would appreciate any sort of advice on this matter before i make any foolish moves, as they don't have any immigration problems at the moment and don't want to complicate anything.

I also take this oppurtunity to thank you all in advance for your time and effort .

[sakura]

Your sister is way too old for any sort of assistance on your part. It'll be a long and veeeerrryyy hard battle to prove to the HO that she needs your support/to be in the UK, even if she lives in India. It's the exceptional AND compassionate argument you need to fight. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but siblings usually don't get supported for visas from UK nationals/residents, and if they do, they're usually either under 18 or have a mental/physical disability. I don't think depression is a strong enough argument. It is usually something that would make the applicant unable to live at all without medical assistance, etc. Plus, if you support her, you can continue to do so whilst she is in India (that is an argument they've used before....). This might also make it hard for your mum's visa if you argue that you need her to look after your sister...they are two separate cases and if one relies on the other - might be a bit tricky?

I think also that you'll need to argue the compassionate and exceptional circumstances for your mother, as she is under 65. http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... bb1ae25f4e

Does your sister have a family of her own (husband, kids)?

I suggest you get legal advice for this.

[avjones]

As far as your sister is concerned, you would need to show she is "living along in the most exceptionally compassionate circumstances" as well as being dependent on you.

[totalcontrol1]

sakura and avjones i thank you for your replies but i think you haven't understood my case.
The only reason they managed to get a 10 year multiple entry visa and no questions were asked with a 27 year old person was on financial grounds. My mum has at her disposal £450k which produces an income of over £25k pounds which is a basic requirement for someone to retire at 60 in the UK, which she could do on her own. Even if my sister inherits £250k of it and starts a business here and employs 2 people , she could get a business visa, the point here is she has no educational background and we don't have any relatives back in India, isn't there a way where we could place a gurantee of some sort with the HO?? imagine my mum gets the stay here, my sister would be all alone in India. she has never been married or had any children.
Further, ill add this as well, my wife is also clinically depressed, and has been so for nearly 8 years. My mum and sister are a great force of strength around me and have helped me bring my kids up.

[avjones]

sakura and avjones i thank you for your replies but i think you haven't understood my case.
The only reason they managed to get a 10 year multiple entry visa and no questions were asked with a 27 year old person was on financial grounds. .... imagine my mum gets the stay here, my sister would be all alone in India. she has never been married or had any children.
Further, ill add this as well, my wife is also clinically depressed, and has been so for nearly 8 years. My mum and sister are a great force of strength around me and have helped me bring my kids up.

I think you haven't understood my post - I was quoting from the Immigration Rules for a depedency visa, not putting my own opinion forward at all.

The Home Office will say that if your mother does get a visa here, it is her choice to leave your sister living in India.

"So they usually go out for 2 weeks after ALMOST 6 mnths and come back in and live with me, for the rest of the year. "

What type of 10 year visa for they have? A 10 year multiple-entry visitor visa?

How long are they staying in total per calender year?

The relevant Immigration Rule is as follows:

317. The requirements to be met by a person seeking indefinite leave to enter or remain in the United Kingdom as the parent, grandparent or other dependent relative of a person present and settled in the United Kingdom are that the person:

(i) is related to a person present and settled in the United Kingdom in one of the following ways:

(a) mother or grandmother who is a widow aged 65 years or over; or

(b) father or grandfather who is a widower aged 65 years or over; or

(c) parents or grandparents travelling together of whom at least one is aged 65 or over; or

(d) a parent or grandparent aged 65 or over who has entered into a second relationship of marriage or civil partnership but cannot look to the spouse, civil partner or children of that second relationship for financial support; and where the person settled in the United Kingdom is able and willing to maintain the parent or grandparent and any spouse or civil partner or child of the second relationship who would be admissible as a dependant; or

(e) parent or grandparent under the age of 65 if living alone outside the United Kingdom in the most exceptional compassionate circumstances and mainly dependent financially on relatives settled in the United Kingdom; or

(f) the son, daughter, sister, brother, uncle or aunt over the age of 18 if living alone outside the United Kingdom in the most exceptional compassionate circumstances and mainly dependent financially on relatives settled in the United Kingdom; and

(ii) is joining or accompanying a person who is present and settled in the United Kingdom or who is on the same occasion being admitted for settlement; and

(iii) is financially wholly or mainly dependent on the relative present and settled in the United Kingdom; and

(iv) can, and will, be accommodated adequately, together with any dependants, without recourse to public funds, in accommodation which the sponsor owns or occupies exclusively; and

(iva) can, and will, be maintained adequately, together with any dependants, without recourse to public funds; and

(v) has no other close relatives in his own country to whom he could turn for financial support; and

(vi) if seeking leave to enter, holds a valid United Kingdom entry clearance for entry in this capacity.

So the position of your wife etc is not relevant under the Immigration Rules. Your sister's position is that she must be "living alone outside the United Kingdom in the most exceptional compassionate circumstances"

[totalcontrol1]

avjones, with all due respect i do understand that you were quoting the immigration rules, but you must understand that I have researched all means and only desperation brings me to these forums. I also understand that the case is difficult to solve that is why i ask you learned people out there. The negetive approach is always the easiest way out for any problem, but i felt there was substance to this case, on the grounds of providing the HO some sort of a gurantee, considering the person is unable to make his/her own living and is a genuine dependent.
To your question ,yes, it is a 10 year multiple entry visitors visa. They have been living at an average about 11 months in a year in the UK, as they go out for about2 weeks every visit in a year and twice a year@6mths each.
The approach i was thinking of was to get my mother the residence on retirement basis and then apply to the home office on grounds that mysister being a dependent wouldn't need to work for the rest of her life and guarantee her accomodation and living expense.
There must be some way, this is only done as my mum is aging and my sister and her find travelling a real chore. To further strengten the case i would also get them private medical insurance, so there was no sort of state expenditure or burden on the tax payer in anyway.
At the moment they have been going up and down once every 6 months, and get all their medical and dental outside,which is not even the issue as it can be over come in this country by private insurance. But one has to be in that situation to realise,you come back after 6 months and you're thinking of where you'd go after the next six.
Thank you once again for your patience.

[Wanderer]

They shouldn't be using visitor visas in that way, they are not settlement visas. Sooner or later they will get caught.

WRT to ur sister's issues I'm sure the HO will deal with any application within the immigration rules, bonds, or guarantees won't enter into it.

If ur a BC you might try moving to another EU state and bringing ur sister on an EEA Family Permit as an extended family member - the rules for that are much less stringent.

[sakura]

To your question ,yes, it is a 10 year multiple entry visitors visa. They have been living at an average about 11 months in a year in the UK, as they go out for about2 weeks every visit in a year and twice a year@6mths each.

Sooner or later they will be refused entry if you're playing this game. A visitor's visa is not a settlement visa; if the IOs suspect that they spend an excessive amount of time in the UK (they should have figured it out after 4 years!!) they will refuse them entry and, if it is found that they have been doing this for so long, their visa might be cancelled.

This might affect your mum's and sister's application if they have been more or less living in the UK without the appropriate visa, even if they haven't claimed public funds.

Just my 0.02c.

[avjones]

They need to watch out - they are not really using their visitors' visas properly, I'm afraid. They are essentially living here on their visitors' visa, and that is not what the visa is for. Where do they go when they travel every 6 months or so?

A good guideline is that you shouldn't spend more than 6 months per 12 months in the UK on a visitor's visa. They could find it cancelled on them and that they are refused entry. Or, when it comes up for renewal, renewal could be refused altogether.

The thing is, the only way inside the immigration rules for your sister to stay is that she meets the test I set out. It's hard to say that she is living alone in the most compassionate of circumstances. There is no other immigration rule she could apply under.

She could make an application exceptioanlly outside the rules, but my experience tells me it will be refused, I'm afraid. It's very rare for an application outside the rules to succeed when it is made because the person can't meet the test in the rules.

[totalcontrol1]

woah!!
Like i said, it seems people misunderstood this case or some one is misinformed. Where is the settlement issue on a visitors visa? and how is it misused if one is following the stipulated time allowed /visit?

A visitors visa is valid for 6 months right? yes

so what i meant in my post is BEFORE THAT TERM EXPIRES THEY leave the country and return after 2 weeks or 3 and we are dependent on each other maybe not financially but certainly emotionally and we chose not to leave away from each other.

They live here for further 5-6 mnths and leave again. Isn't that the whole purpose of a multiple entry visa? or its simple they are still visiting UK as tourist as they have the means to do so... They have been doing this for 8 years actually, and they have been asked at heathrow Immigration where they get their medical and if anyone works here illegally?
They previously had a five year multiple entry visa which expired and a further 10year visa was given. LIke i said if they think one is misusing the system they would question the visa. I think immigration is like credit rating and they have an excellent one.
Several times during their visit they have been stopped but mum has sufficient funds and has always claimed my sister travelling with her is her dependent.

[Wanderer]

woah!!
Like i said, it seems people misunderstood this case or some one is misinformed. Where is the settlement issue on a visitors visa? and how is it misused if one is following the stipulated time allowed /visit?

Because ur mum and and sister are effectively living here on a visitors visa, ie seemingly attempting to settle on a visa used for visits, not residence.

They've been very lucky so far not to get questioned by Immigration.

[avjones]

woah!!
Like i said, it seems people misunderstood this case or some one is misinformed. Where is the settlement issue on a visitors visa? and how is it misused if one is following the stipulated time allowed /visit?

Unfortunately, I fear it is you who has misunderstood what a VV is for, and you who is misinformed. Your mother and sister are, in effect, living in the UK (11 months out of 12) and using the VV to do so.

A visitors visa is valid for 6 months right? yes

Yes, but if you leave for a few days and come back for another 6 months, you aren't in any real sense a visitor, are you?

I have looked up the immigration guidance from the Home Office for you, and it states as follows:

4. FREQUENCY AND DURATION OF VISITS

There is no restriction on the number of visits a person may make to the United Kingdom nor any requirement that a specified time must elapse between successive visits. The fact that a person has made a series of visits with only brief intervals between them would not, in the absence of any other relevant factors, constitute sufficient ground for refusal.

It is reasonable, however, for the immigration officer to consider the stated purpose of the visit in the light of the length of time that has elapsed since previous visits. A visitor should not, for example, normally spend more than 6 out of any 12 months in this country (but see Section 3 of this chapter in the case of visitors for private medical treatment).

[SYH]

Mr control, not to gang up on you but while the rule isn't exact about how long you can stay in the uk under the visitor visa, your sister and mother have really converted the visitor visa into a leave to remain visa. They stay in the UK than most people stay who have an official leave to remain or settlment visa and this where people are getting hung up on and saying you are using the visa like you are on settlement whether you intended to be or not.
So far you have solved your own problem, if your mom can get a retirement visa, then go get it. Then you are left with your sister and you at the mercy of HO's assessment. I would get the easy one out of the way first and then put all your efforts on the next one.
good luck

[totalcontrol1]

I really don't know if i should drag this any further, i came to this forum for help and advice, and i got it to some extent.
what i cant understand is they have had their 5 year visa renewed(expired) to a 10 year one , i suppose the visa office would have seen this?? they pass through heathrow and they have never had problems(touch wood), are you guys suggesting they have been lucky for 8 years?

Further, the officers are not stupid, they know if someone can travel so frequently,can accomodate themselves here and are retired why wouldn't they let them through?? yes there has been questions who is here and what does he do and how long you intend to stay,and where do u get your medicals,how do u support yourselves etc etc on one occassion.

My sister and mum have no benefits from living in this country, other than living with family,and we are connected emotionally and chose to live together.
With a VV one doesnt have any rights,benefits or cannot settle on that visa,even the 10 year settlement rule wouldnt apply as they are on a VV,as there is a similar case on this forum who's mum is being deported as he applied on these grounds(she was on students visa), so how long one stays and frequents would be judged on an individuals basis and cicumstances, and i suppose that has been implied on them.

I thank you all for your views and help once again .

[avjones]

You've had advice not just to some extent, to be honest!

I am currently instructed on a judicial review. The Claimant in that case had been in and out of the country frequently for over a decade. There was no doubt her sponsers were extremely wealthy, and no doubt that she never has been and never will be a burden on public funds. or that she ever has or ever will work.

But on this one occasion, the CIO refused her entry at Heathrow on the grounds that she had stayed 7 months out of the previous 12. Our main ground for JR is not that he is wrong if that were true, but that he can't count.

So yes, your family has been EXTREMELY lucky so far, I'd say. But I don't think you can count on that continuing. Immigration control in the UK is far from being about just a burden on public funds, or working, etc. It's also about qualifying under the Immigration Rules.

Apart from the Immigration Rules, I also insert here the Home Office guidance on the issue:

2. REQUIREMENTS OF THE RULES

Other relatives who wish to join a relative in the United Kingdom must not only satisfy each of the requirements of Paragraph 317, they must also demonstrate that they are living alone in the most exceptional compassionate circumstances. Therefore such applications will have to be decided on the individual merits of the case. As the majority of such applications will be from persons who are over the age of 18, but not necessarily old and frail, the compassionate circumstances will need to be very strong. The circumstances will have to be such that the applicant cannot function (either because of illness or disability) without the help and support of friends or relatives and that no such help or support is available to them in the country where they are living.....

Where the applicant is a young single or divorced woman living in a country where it is claimed that it is socially unacceptable for her to live there alone, this may be taken into account when considering whether there are sufficient exceptional compassionate circumstances, but such a situation is not on its own a sufficiently compelling reason to grant leave to enter or remain.