URGENT Naturalisation Issue - Traffic Offence (SP 50)

[arun1509]

Hi Guru's,

Today (07/05/2013), I went to apply for Naturalisation at NCS and all went well until the officer noticed I have declared Speeding Conviction - SP 50 (from the Court which resulted in £180 fine and 4 penalty points) in my application form. He told that my application will be rejected due to this and asked me to wait 3 years from the conviction date. So, i withdrawn my application and came back home.

I was granted ILR last year with the conviction declared which too had the same 'Good Character' requirement. So, not sure why NCS officer said my applicaition will be rejected. I have no other conviction/FPN in last 6 years.

Eligibility criteria - 5 yrs + 1 yr ILR
Convicted date - 24/01/2012
Traffic Offence - SP50 from Court ( £180 fine + 4 points)
ILR Granted - 02/05/2012
Naturalisation application date - 07/05/2013

Please advice me if I qualify for Naturalisation and my application will not be rejected due to only ONE Speeding conviction??
Can I apply by post or use NCS again?

Many Thanks

[Amber]

Hi Guru's,

Today (07/05/2013), I went to apply for Naturalisation at NCS and all went well until the officer noticed I have declared Speeding Conviction - SP 50 (from the Court which resulted in £180 fine and 4 penalty points) in my application form. He told that my application will be rejected due to this and asked me to wait 3 years from the conviction date. So, i withdrawn my application and came back home.

I was granted ILR last year with the conviction declared which too had the same 'Good Character' requirement. So, not sure why NCS officer said my applicaition will be rejected. I have no other conviction/FPN in last 6 years.

Eligibility criteria - 5 yrs + 1 yr ILR
Convicted date - 24/01/2012
Traffic Offence - SP50 from Court ( £180 fine + 4 points)
ILR Granted - 02/05/2012
Naturalisation application date - 07/05/2013

Please advice me if I qualify for Naturalisation and my application will not be rejected due to only ONE Speeding conviction??
Can I apply by post or use NCS again?

Many Thanks

You state convicted, so I've assumed you went to court.

Your ILR application was granted with reference to the general grounds for refusal guidance, in this guidance a court issued FPN, if not recorded on the PNC will be ignored.

For naturalisation, the good character requirement must be satisfied. If you have a non custodial conviction, you will face automatic refusal for 3 years. However, it is debatable whether your court issued FPN constitutes a non custodial sentence. The good character guidance states that a FPN is not to be regarded as a non custodial sentence unless, the applicant contested the FPN at court and was found guilty. However, the is no clear stipulation that a court issued FPN is classed as a FPN. I think the NCS are airing on the side of caution. I would write to the UKBA (or send a FOI) and ask whether a court issued FPN (if you contested or were summoned), which includes a fine, forms part of a non custodial sentence for the purpose of the good character requirement. Following their response you shoud know how to proceed.

Did you contest the FPN?

Did you attend court or make a plea?

[Jambo]

Also note that the rules have changed between your ILR ad now.

[Amber]

Also note that the rules have changed between your ILR ad now.

Indeed, arguably more lenient in both cases unless one has a police caution. This makes me think that the OP was not convicted but is using the word which is causing the confusion. The OP needs to clarify whether he was summoned to attend court and whether he contested the FPN at court?

[arun1509]

Hi Guru's,

Today (07/05/2013), I went to apply for Naturalisation at NCS and all went well until the officer noticed I have declared Speeding Conviction - SP 50 (from the Court which resulted in £180 fine and 4 penalty points) in my application form. He told that my application will be rejected due to this and asked me to wait 3 years from the conviction date. So, i withdrawn my application and came back home.

I was granted ILR last year with the conviction declared which too had the same 'Good Character' requirement. So, not sure why NCS officer said my applicaition will be rejected. I have no other conviction/FPN in last 6 years.

Eligibility criteria - 5 yrs + 1 yr ILR
Convicted date - 24/01/2012
Traffic Offence - SP50 from Court ( £180 fine + 4 points)
ILR Granted - 02/05/2012
Naturalisation application date - 07/05/2013

Please advice me if I qualify for Naturalisation and my application will not be rejected due to only ONE Speeding conviction??
Can I apply by post or use NCS again?

Many Thanks

You state convicted, so I've assumed you went to court.

Your ILR application was granted with reference to the general grounds for refusal guidance, in this guidance a court issued FPN, if not recorded on the PNC will be ignored.

For naturalisation, the good character requirement must be satisfied. If you have a non custodial conviction, you will face automatic refusal for 3 years. However, it is debatable whether your court issued FPN constitutes a non custodial sentence. The good character guidance states that a FPN is not to be regarded as a non custodial sentence unless, the applicant contested the FPN at court and was found guilty. However, the is no clear stipulation that a court issued FPN is classed as a FPN. I think the NCS are airing on the side of caution. I would write to the UKBA (or send a FOI) and ask whether a court issued FPN (if you contested or were summoned), which includes a fine, forms part of a non custodial sentence for the purpose of the good character requirement. Following their response you shoud know how to proceed.

Did you contest the FPN?

Did you attend court or make a plea?

Thanks for your reply D4109125. I got a NIP from the court and not an FPN from the police, regarding the speeding offence and I pleaded guilty by post and did not attend the court. Later i was convicted by the court and asked to pay £180 fine and 4 point in my DL. I did not get an FPN from the police and neither did I challange the NIP. I simply accepted and pleaded guilty.

Does this seems I' am on a safer side or I have to wait for 3 years until this conviction gets spent?

Many Thanks

[Amber]

Hi Guru's,

Today (07/05/2013), I went to apply for Naturalisation at NCS and all went well until the officer noticed I have declared Speeding Conviction - SP 50 (from the Court which resulted in £180 fine and 4 penalty points) in my application form. He told that my application will be rejected due to this and asked me to wait 3 years from the conviction date. So, i withdrawn my application and came back home.

I was granted ILR last year with the conviction declared which too had the same 'Good Character' requirement. So, not sure why NCS officer said my applicaition will be rejected. I have no other conviction/FPN in last 6 years.

Eligibility criteria - 5 yrs + 1 yr ILR
Convicted date - 24/01/2012
Traffic Offence - SP50 from Court ( £180 fine + 4 points)
ILR Granted - 02/05/2012
Naturalisation application date - 07/05/2013

Please advice me if I qualify for Naturalisation and my application will not be rejected due to only ONE Speeding conviction??
Can I apply by post or use NCS again?

Many Thanks

You state convicted, so I've assumed you went to court.

Your ILR application was granted with reference to the general grounds for refusal guidance, in this guidance a court issued FPN, if not recorded on the PNC will be ignored.

For naturalisation, the good character requirement must be satisfied. If you have a non custodial conviction, you will face automatic refusal for 3 years. However, it is debatable whether your court issued FPN constitutes a non custodial sentence. The good character guidance states that a FPN is not to be regarded as a non custodial sentence unless, the applicant contested the FPN at court and was found guilty. However, the is no clear stipulation that a court issued FPN is classed as a FPN. I think the NCS are airing on the side of caution. I would write to the UKBA (or send a FOI) and ask whether a court issued FPN (if you contested or were summoned), which includes a fine, forms part of a non custodial sentence for the purpose of the good character requirement. Following their response you shoud know how to proceed.

Did you contest the FPN?

Did you attend court or make a plea?

Thanks for your reply D4109125. I got a NIP from the court and not an FPN from the police, regarding the speeding offence and I pleaded guilty by post and did not attend the court. Later i was convicted by the court and asked to pay £180 fine and 4 point in my DL. I did not get an FPN from the police and neither did I challange the NIP. I simply accepted and pleaded guilty.

Does this seems I' am on a safer side or I have to wait for 3 years until this conviction gets spent?

Many Thanks

It is difficult to be certain. There are two outcomes, 1 – the non-custodial sentence, a court fine, will generally create an automatic bar for 3 years. However, 2- under paragraph 3.3.1 of the Good Character guidance, a minor conviction which resulted in a relatively small fine can possibly be disregarded. It depends what is classed as ‘minor’, I think that £180 could possibly fit into this. How fast were you travelling? If you are willing you take the risk and apply I would include in the extra information, reference to paragraph 3.3.1 and the discretion for the caseworker to disregard your minor offence. I would also include that you have never been involved in any criminality before (assuming you have not) and that but for this minor conviction you are of Good Character and have learnt from your conduct.

[arun1509]

Hi Guru's,

Today (07/05/2013), I went to apply for Naturalisation at NCS and all went well until the officer noticed I have declared Speeding Conviction - SP 50 (from the Court which resulted in £180 fine and 4 penalty points) in my application form. He told that my application will be rejected due to this and asked me to wait 3 years from the conviction date. So, i withdrawn my application and came back home.

I was granted ILR last year with the conviction declared which too had the same 'Good Character' requirement. So, not sure why NCS officer said my applicaition will be rejected. I have no other conviction/FPN in last 6 years.

Eligibility criteria - 5 yrs + 1 yr ILR
Convicted date - 24/01/2012
Traffic Offence - SP50 from Court ( £180 fine + 4 points)
ILR Granted - 02/05/2012
Naturalisation application date - 07/05/2013

Please advice me if I qualify for Naturalisation and my application will not be rejected due to only ONE Speeding conviction??
Can I apply by post or use NCS again?

Many Thanks

You state convicted, so I've assumed you went to court.

Your ILR application was granted with reference to the general grounds for refusal guidance, in this guidance a court issued FPN, if not recorded on the PNC will be ignored.

For naturalisation, the good character requirement must be satisfied. If you have a non custodial conviction, you will face automatic refusal for 3 years. However, it is debatable whether your court issued FPN constitutes a non custodial sentence. The good character guidance states that a FPN is not to be regarded as a non custodial sentence unless, the applicant contested the FPN at court and was found guilty. However, the is no clear stipulation that a court issued FPN is classed as a FPN. I think the NCS are airing on the side of caution. I would write to the UKBA (or send a FOI) and ask whether a court issued FPN (if you contested or were summoned), which includes a fine, forms part of a non custodial sentence for the purpose of the good character requirement. Following their response you shoud know how to proceed.

Did you contest the FPN?

Did you attend court or make a plea?

Thanks for your reply D4109125. I got a NIP from the court and not an FPN from the police, regarding the speeding offence and I pleaded guilty by post and did not attend the court. Later i was convicted by the court and asked to pay £180 fine and 4 point in my DL. I did not get an FPN from the police and neither did I challange the NIP. I simply accepted and pleaded guilty.

Does this seems I' am on a safer side or I have to wait for 3 years until this conviction gets spent?

Many Thanks

It is difficult to be certain. There are two outcomes, 1 – the non-custodial sentence, a court fine, will generally create an automatic bar for 3 years. However, 2- under paragraph 3.3.1 of the Good Character guidance, a minor conviction which resulted in a relatively small fine can possibly be disregarded. It depends what is classed as ‘minor’, I think that £180 could possibly fit into this. How fast were you travelling? If you are willing you take the risk and apply I would include in the extra information, reference to paragraph 3.3.1 and the discretion for the caseworker to disregard your minor offence. I would also include that you have never been involved in any criminality before (assuming you have not) and that but for this minor conviction you are of Good Character and have learnt from your conduct.

Yes, the first outcome (non-custodial) was told to me by the NCS officer.
I too think the case worker should consider this conviction as 'Minor' and there were no other conviction in the 6 years time.

I was convicted by the Scottish court(since the incident happened in Scotland) for doing 95mph on motorway which had a speed limit of 70mph.

I will take the risk and apply for Naturalisation by Post. Also will include the detailed information about this conviction and highlight below points:

1. Received NIP from court and pleaded guilty. Paid fine and penalty points.
2. No other conviction in the last 6 years since I have been in UK.
3. Overall of Good Character and have learnt from my conduct.


Please let me know if I have to include any more details.

Thanks

[Amber]

Sounds good though make sure you use the words minor conviction and minor fine and ask them to use their discretion under paragraph 3.3.1. Remember you may still be rejected. Keep us informed about the progress of your application.

[arun1509]

Sounds good though make sure you use the words minor conviction and minor fine and ask them to use their discretion under paragraph 3.3.1. Remember you may still be rejected. Keep us informed about the progress of your application.

I just went through the complaint from the PROCURATOR FISCAL DUMFRIES KIRKCUDBRIGHT who has charged me of the speeding offence. Since this offence happened in Scotland - 'The Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995, Section 226B' has been applied. Initially when i was charged the Procurator Fiscal gave me a option to plead guilty without attending court.

So, I pleaded guilty and the case was heard in 'DUMFRIES Justice of the Peace Cour't and the court ordered to Pay fine. Then received a letter from Procurator Fiscal detailing about the fine and penalty points. I paid the fine later.

Does this case fall under the case worker guide section - 3.6.13, 3.6.14, 3.6.15 which deals with Procurator Fiscal Fines ( Scottish Law)? There is also a reference to this in section 3.3.1.e.
Is my case a Scottish Fiscal Fine?

Also, in April 2012 i applied for Disclosure Scotland before my ILR and this speeding offence came out as 'Conviction' in the disclosure scotland.

Thanks

[Amber]

Sounds good though make sure you use the words minor conviction and minor fine and ask them to use their discretion under paragraph 3.3.1. Remember you may still be rejected. Keep us informed about the progress of your application.

I just went through the complaint from the PROCURATOR FISCAL DUMFRIES KIRKCUDBRIGHT who has charged me of the speeding offence. Since this offence happened in Scotland - 'The Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995, Section 226B' has been applied. Initially when i was charged the Procurator Fiscal gave me a option to plead guilty without attending court.

So, I pleaded guilty and the case was heard in 'DUMFRIES Justice of the Peace Cour't and the court ordered to Pay fine. Then received a letter from Procurator Fiscal detailing about the fine and penalty points. I paid the fine later.

Does this case fall under the case worker guide section - 3.6.13, 3.6.14, 3.6.15 which deals with Procurator Fiscal Fines ( Scottish Law)? There is also a reference to this in section 3.3.1.e.
Is my case a Scottish Fiscal Fine?

Also, in April 2012 i applied for Disclosure Scotland before my ILR and this speeding offence came out as 'Conviction' in the disclosure scotland.

Thanks

Yes, if its a fiscal fine then it would fall outside the scope of the non custodial conviction range. However, a fiscal fine is not dealt with by the court, the Scottish prosecutors use them to avoid court, they can fine you up to £300. Ring the office tomorrow and confirm it was a normal fiscal fine, if so, you should be ok applying to naturalise, but either way you stand a good chance.

[sam1983]

Did u get any update mate. I had the same issue on A1 at 94 MPH. SP50 - 5 penalty points and 500 fine. I had my ILR before that. This was in 2012 june. My solicitor attended the court in august on behalf of me and pleaded guilty.

When applying for naturalisation in Sep 2012, my solicitor said I need to wait for 5 years since it will take 5 years for it to be removed from the criminal records even though it is off from my license now.

please advise.

regards

Sam

[Smam]

Hi

Sam I'm in a very similar situation as to yours don't know why every solicitors I've been to they're saying to me to wait for five years rather than three as opposed to Amber replies of the post.

Any more replies on the same issue.

Many thanks and waiting for your useful replies.

[sam1983]

Smam

I think its becoz the criminal conviction (speeding is a crime!!! where this country is still in 1940s motorway rules. lol) is considered spent only after 5 years from the court decision date eventhough your points on the license gets cleared after 3 years. This is according to the rehabilitation that happens automatically under the rehabilitation of offenders act 1974.

So, if your were convicted on 25th June 2015, then it will be spent on 25th June 2020 I think automatically.


I did not want to risk applying in Sep 2012. Infact I was in 2 minds wheather to go for citizenship prior to the speeding since my current home country does not allow dual citizenships.

I am intrested to see the reply from Amber..

Thanks and regards

Sam

[Smam]

Smam

I think its becoz the criminal conviction (speeding is a crime!!! where this country is still in 1940s motorway rules. lol) is considered spent only after 5 years from the court decision date eventhough your points on the license gets cleared after 3 years. This is according to the rehabilitation that happens automatically under the rehabilitation of offenders act 1974.

So, if your were convicted on 25th June 2015, then it will be spent on 25th June 2020 I think automatically.


I did not want to risk applying in Sep 2012. Infact I was in 2 minds wheather to go for citizenship prior to the speeding since my current home country does not allow dual citizenships.

I am intrested to see the reply from Amber..

Thanks and regards

Sam

Hi Sam,

Thanks for your reply. But I got 6 points on my license for driving my friends car on my fully comprehensive insurance even I had the fully comprehensive insurance at that time and insurance company sold me the insurance policy by misguiding me about the fact that I am allowed to drive other car as a 3rd party insurance I did pleaded guilty but I went to the court to explain to the Judge about the miss selling from my insurance company but the judge replied to me that this is some thing I have to take up with my insurance company and sadly gave me 6 points on my license and the judge further told me that its not a criminal offense to use your rights and on the FPN or on the PCN it says that you can use your rights by appealing against this so that's what I did I just have exercised my rights that's all it was if there's a law then if you think that its not right this country gives you the liberty to challenge it but I never ever understand the fact that how this will become an offense where as the courts always says to me that its not an offense by any means at all.

This country gives us the great impressions of equality and all that crap which clearly means that no British born person ever get a traffic offense or never ever convicted for his/her whole life. but if an immigrant does it, that's it that's the points where it become every thing I know that British Nationality is not a right its a privilege well.

All I am asking here I've took that bullet right in to my head I've never ever seen this thing where it says that I've to wait for 5 years it always says that I've to wait for 3 in Annex D of Good character requirement and in fact every where.

I've emailed UKBA on their email address and never ever received any replies from their side which is the most annoying thing for me. I rang them nearly 100 times if not less and every single time I got a different answer which clearly tells me that the people who are answering the phone calls haven't got a clue what to say. they say what ever just comes to their minds with out giving a second thought about it. That's why I've emailed them but never ever received any replies to my specific query.

Waiting for your replies.

Many thanks.

[noajthan]

Did u get any update mate. I had the same issue on A1 at 94 MPH. SP50 - 5 penalty points and 500 fine. I had my ILR before that. This was in 2012 june. My solicitor attended the court in august on behalf of me and pleaded guilty.

When applying for naturalisation in Sep 2012, my solicitor said I need to wait for 5 years since it will take 5 years for it to be removed from the criminal records even though it is off from my license now.

please advise.

regards

Sam

Note: The time required to remove entries from 'criminal records' is a matter for the wider UK authorities, as described here:
https://www.gov.uk/penalty-points-endorsements/overview

Endorsements must stay on your driving record for 4 or 11 years, depending on the offence

Some of the confusion over "3 years" or "5 years" may be between:
a) the HO's 3-years limit quoted in relation to determining "good character" for naturalisation
and
b) the UK authorities timelines (4 years or more) for removal of endorsements from a driver's record

[sam1983]

Sounds good though make sure you use the words minor conviction and minor fine and ask them to use their discretion under paragraph 3.3.1. Remember you may still be rejected. Keep us informed about the progress of your application.

I just went through the complaint from the PROCURATOR FISCAL DUMFRIES KIRKCUDBRIGHT who has charged me of the speeding offence. Since this offence happened in Scotland - 'The Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995, Section 226B' has been applied. Initially when i was charged the Procurator Fiscal gave me a option to plead guilty without attending court.

So, I pleaded guilty and the case was heard in 'DUMFRIES Justice of the Peace Cour't and the court ordered to Pay fine. Then received a letter from Procurator Fiscal detailing about the fine and penalty points. I paid the fine later.

Does this case fall under the case worker guide section - 3.6.13, 3.6.14, 3.6.15 which deals with Procurator Fiscal Fines ( Scottish Law)? There is also a reference to this in section 3.3.1.e.
Is my case a Scottish Fiscal Fine?

Also, in April 2012 i applied for Disclosure Scotland before my ILR and this speeding offence came out as 'Conviction' in the disclosure scotland.

Thanks

Arun,

Did u get any update mate. I had the same issue on A1 at 94 MPH. SP50 - 5 penalty points and 500 fine. I had my ILR before that. This was in 2012 june. My solicitor attended the court in august on behalf of me and pleaded guilty.

When applying for naturalisation in Sep 2012, my solicitor said I need to wait for 5 years since it will take 5 years for it to be removed from the criminal records even though it is off from my license now.

please advise.

regards

Sam

[sam1983]

Smam,

I will check with my solicitors again. They are really very good and they are the Best. No rejection so far in all mine and my friends cases. So when they told me that I cannot apply for next 5 years in Sep 2012, I did not give a second thought. See the exact words from my solicitors below in sep 2012

"Unfortunately, the conviction is going to be a problem. To qualify for British citizenship you must not have any unspent convictions. As you received a fine(£500), your conviction will not become spent until 5 years from the date of conviction. They will only use discretion to overlook one minor offence, but their guidance states that this would be for instance where someone receives a relatively small fine, and it specifically states that they won’t overlook offences involving excessive speeding. I think your fine is relatively high, and I don’t believe they would overlook it."

Also getting the British citizenship by giving up your current nationality was not the one that I wanted. So I did not check too much at that time. Today, I have no more points on my license but the endorsement will be going next June. The thing is it stays in the criminal record for 5 years which is completely different to the driving license Endorsement. If you take a detailed CRB check, you will see it on the record. You can do the basic or a standard CRB online. Find a cheap company that does this there are so many online which is expensive. See my basic CRB check attached

example - I used Disclosure scotland in sep 2012

http://www.disclosurescotland.co.uk/
http://www.cbscreening.co.uk/crb-checks


A Basic level disclosure will detail all criminal information considered non-spent under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 or state that there are no such convictions.

regards

Sam

[sam1983]

Smam

I think its becoz the criminal conviction (speeding is a crime!!! where this country is still in 1940s motorway rules. lol) is considered spent only after 5 years from the court decision date eventhough your points on the license gets cleared after 3 years. This is according to the rehabilitation that happens automatically under the rehabilitation of offenders act 1974.

So, if your were convicted on 25th June 2015, then it will be spent on 25th June 2020 I think automatically.


I did not want to risk applying in Sep 2012. Infact I was in 2 minds wheather to go for citizenship prior to the speeding since my current home country does not allow dual citizenships.

I am intrested to see the reply from Amber..

Thanks and regards

Sam

Hi Sam,

Thanks for your reply. But I got 6 points on my license for driving my friends car on my fully comprehensive insurance even I had the fully comprehensive insurance at that time and insurance company sold me the insurance policy by misguiding me about the fact that I am allowed to drive other car as a 3rd party insurance I did pleaded guilty but I went to the court to explain to the Judge about the miss selling from my insurance company but the judge replied to me that this is some thing I have to take up with my insurance company and sadly gave me 6 points on my license and the judge further told me that its not a criminal offense to use your rights and on the FPN or on the PCN it says that you can use your rights by appealing against this so that's what I did I just have exercised my rights that's all it was if there's a law then if you think that its not right this country gives you the liberty to challenge it but I never ever understand the fact that how this will become an offense where as the courts always says to me that its not an offense by any means at all.

This country gives us the great impressions of equality and all that crap which clearly means that no British born person ever get a traffic offense or never ever convicted for his/her whole life. but if an immigrant does it, that's it that's the points where it become every thing I know that British Nationality is not a right its a privilege well.

All I am asking here I've took that bullet right in to my head I've never ever seen this thing where it says that I've to wait for 5 years it always says that I've to wait for 3 in Annex D of Good character requirement and in fact every where.

I've emailed UKBA on their email address and never ever received any replies from their side which is the most annoying thing for me. I rang them nearly 100 times if not less and every single time I got a different answer which clearly tells me that the people who are answering the phone calls haven't got a clue what to say. they say what ever just comes to their minds with out giving a second thought about it. That's why I've emailed them but never ever received any replies to my specific query.

Waiting for your replies.

Many thanks.

Any update on when you are going to apply for BC.


Thanks

Sam

[sam1983]

Smam

I got a good news when I checked with my solicitors. They said you don't need to wait 5 years for non custodial sentence. You have to wait only 3 years. So you can apply now. My 3 years was complete last September. May be I was a bit late to check with my solicitors since I was travelling. I just checked with them last week.

Regards

Sam

[sam1983]

Got my Citizenship and I have appliedfor British passport now

Sam

Smam

I got a good news when I checked with my solicitors. They said you don't need to wait 5 years for non custodial sentence. You have to wait only 3 years. So you can apply now. My 3 years was complete last September. May be I was a bit late to check with my solicitors since I was travelling. I just checked with them last week.

Regards

Sam