Travelling around Europe with non-eu spouse?

[awalkinthestreet]

Hello,

We're planning our future and eventually will look to live probably in Berlin for a year in order to enter the UK via surinder singh route. I'm British and my spouse is Korean. We're planning to spend the next year or more travelling around the world and have our plans setup for SE Asia already. We want to travel around Europe also by camper van. What is the situation regarding her travelling with me when we are married? I know that she can remain in a country with me as long as I'm exercising my treaty rights are 3 months... but what about if we travel to one country for 2 weeks, then another country for 2 weeks and keep doing that for around 6-12 months... is it possible? Or will she be restricted to 90 days out of 180 in the Schengen zone if I'm not exercising my treaty rights?

It's all very confusing for me. If it isn't possible then we will spend 90 days in the Schengen then 90 days in the UK/IRE then head back to europe again... but that's not ideal.

Thanks for any insight you can offer.

[Casa]

The Uniform Schengen Visa (USV) only permits a maximum 90 day stay within a 6 month period. However, you may have heard in the news that leaders will meet on tomorrow (Monday) to discuss the possible suspension of the Schengen rules and re-introduce internal border controls for a period of two years.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... rules.html

Looking further ahead, the Surinder Singh route as we know it today, may have quite different conditions in a year or so. Also note that in order to spend time with you in the UK your wife would need the appropriate visa.

[awalkinthestreet]

Hmm, I wasn't actually aware. We currently live in South Korea, so I don't keep up to date with European news. If this suspension of Schengen rules is applied, how would that effect non-eu citizens visiting those countries for tourism? They would be given a limited time per country rather than a limited time in Schengen?

I understand that many things can change the Surinder Singh route... it's our eventual plan but if it's not possible then we will look at alternatives at the time. From my understanding she doesn't require any visa to enter the UK for a period of up to 6 months, as long as the purpose is for tourism or visiting family, which is what we would be doing... travelling by camper van around the UK and visiting my family en route. Is this not correct?

[khanmzk]

@CASA what does the security of the borders have to do with the treaty of Lisbon??.you mentiond surinder singh??.does the security of the borders have to do anything with benefits as well because this news is again pointing out that 4 out of 5 refugees are economic migrants...pure European bureaucracy thats what it look like
and yes you are right..they have changed surinder singh rule by introducing center of life test and after the EU refrendum brexit UK will be free to close that door completely which they already call a loop hole...and leave
a Price Tag for Love 18,600 its easy all you have to do is to earn 18,600 per year no wonder what your circumstances are to bring your husband or kids which is your family but not EU citizens...

LONG LIVE THE QUEEN..............................................................................................

[Casa]

Hmm, I wasn't actually aware. We currently live in South Korea, so I don't keep up to date with European news. If this suspension of Schengen rules is applied, how would that effect non-eu citizens visiting those countries for tourism? They would be given a limited time per country rather than a limited time in Schengen?

I understand that many things can change the Surinder Singh route... it's our eventual plan but if it's not possible then we will look at alternatives at the time. From my understanding she doesn't require any visa to enter the UK for a period of up to 6 months, as long as the purpose is for tourism or visiting family, which is what we would be doing... travelling by camper van around the UK and visiting my family en route. Is this not correct?

South Korean nationals must apply for a Standard Visitor visa before travelling to the UK. She would have to submit evidence of strong ties to her home country in order for a visitor visa application to succeed. Having a British husband unfortunately weakens her chances.

If Schengen is suspended, and the open EU borders are removed, then a separate visa would be required for each country.

[khanmzk]

Germany already had introduced border checks with austria and belgium and given a huge blow to EU free movement any way..but sooner or later it is going to be worst..

[awalkinthestreet]

From my understanding she does not require a standard visitor visa according to this .gov website - https://www.gov.uk/standard-visitor-visa/overview

It shows that if visiting for tourism and visiting family that no visa is required for South Korean nationals.

Am I correct in understanding that if freedom of movement is removed for 2 years then, unless the UK leaves the EU, well actually the EEA that Surinder Singh is still fully possible? I thought that Surinder Singh was possible under EEA and isn't anything to do with freedom of movement...

[Casa]

From my understanding she does not require a standard visitor visa according to this .gov website - https://www.gov.uk/standard-visitor-visa/overview

It shows that if visiting for tourism and visiting family that no visa is required for South Korean nationals.

Am I correct in understanding that if freedom of movement is removed for 2 years then, unless the UK leaves the EU, well actually the EEA that Surinder Singh is still fully possible? I thought that Surinder Singh was possible under EEA and isn't anything to do with freedom of movement...

My error, a visa isn't required when entering as a visitor. Note however the guidance that the same paperwork that would be submitted for a visa application should be carried with her to present to the Immigration Officer at the port of entry. If they aren't convinced that she has stronger reasons to return than she has to overstay, she could be refused.

Surinder Singh is linked to free movement in that it enables an EU national to exercise Treaty rights freely in another member state and then return to their home country under EEA regulations. Although I'm not suggesting the suspension of Schengen will affect this route, only that with the goal posts moving, SS may not be as easy a route as it is now. In fact with the 'centre of the life test' it has already come under more scrutiny with refused applications being taken to appeal.

This thread makes interesting reading, particularly the contribution from secret.simon

http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... 99711.html

[secret.simon]

I certainly wasn't expecting to be quoted with regards to the EU referendum. blushing furiously

I thought that Surinder Singh was possible under EEA and isn't anything to do with freedom of movement...

The Surinder Singh route arises from a judgement of the ECJ/CJEU that the spouse of a British citizen should not be worse off when s/he returns with their British spouse to the UK than when s/he was in another EEA country where the British spouse exercised treaty rights. So, it is fundamentally tied in with the freedom of movement.

As your wife is accompanying you throughout the roadtrip, she can stay with you for upto three months in each EEA state, irrespective of the existence or otherwise of the Schengen Zone (Chapter III, Article 6, Paragraph 2 of EU Directive 2004/38/EC).

If you stayed in any EEA state for longer than three months, you can exercise treaty rights in any EEA country without working by being a self-sufficient person having Comprehensive Sickness Insurance (private health insurance). Your wife will automatically have the right to stay with you.

All the rights enumerated above are only provided she accompanies you or intends to join you at a common destination.

Depending on where you are starting your roadtrip (provided it is not the UK), your wife will need to apply for a visa as the family member of an EEA citizen, which should be issued free of charge-most countries charge processing fees; the UK charges £65-and expeditiously (Chapter II, Article 5, Paragraph 2 of the same Directive referenced above).

South Korean nationals must apply for a Standard Visitor visa before travelling to the UK. She would have to submit evidence of strong ties to her home country in order for a visitor visa application to succeed. Having a British husband unfortunately weakens her chances.

Because your wife has a British spouse, she will actually find it harder to get a British visa. The whole point of a visit visa is that she leaves, which she is less likely to if she has a British husband. I would suggest avoiding the UK completely on the roadtrip and doing a British roadtrip later after she have successfully arrived in the UK under Surinder Singh and got her Residence Permit. For reasons outlined below, I would suggest that she completes the Surinder Singh route as soon as possible.

::Opinion piece::
From what I have seen of the news today, Schengen is not yet dead, though Greece is the bad boy yet again. But the EU does seem to be lurching from crisis to crisis. Depending on your point of view, the solution is either to strengthen it (more centralisation) or weaken it (let national governments decide and the EU can exist as a coordination committee).

As stated in the other thread, I fear that the negativity associated with immigrants after the surge of refugees in the last year will lead to all national governments in the EU weakening EU freedom of movement laws. That could affect the Surinder Singh route negatively as well. It is not impossible to imagine that in UK-EU renegotiations that the UK is given more powers over EEA family immigration (without restricting the rights of EEA citizens themselves). Yesterday's papers have suggested that George Osborne has secured a permanent veto on EU laws with regards to the economic sphere. That could be extended to the immigration sphere as well.

[Casa]

+1 'secret.simon. I have posted a correction that a visitor visa isn't a requirement for S.Korean nationals, but I agree with the advice that it may be wise to visit the UK on a separate occasion to the Europe camper van trip.

[awalkinthestreet]

Really appreciate all your advice Secret.simon and Casa. It's really helpful.

I'm glad to hear that it is possible for her to stay in each EEA country for 3 months, regardless of me excersing my treaty rights. If she applies for a visa of EEA family member, would she be required to get that every time she enters a new country? We originally thought we would have to leave the Schengen for 3 months every 6 so this is pretty good news as we can avoid the cold winter by staying south.

The one issue is that we would be self building the van in the UK if we go ahead with this idea. I'm not sure it's possible for me to do it any other way as we have no way to insure a foreign vehicle. I guess the option is to buy an already partly converted van and do the work as we go along if need be.

I'm a bit ignorant in regards to the whole UK situation... if she entered the UK with a flight ticket out to say France for a month after we arrive I thought this would be okay. Actually, how would they even know we are married? She doesnt hold my surname on her passport (Korean's dont change their surname) and potentially we could enter the UK seperately. Are there any risks regarding this? I don't know how immigration works for non-eu citizens in to the UK, do they have to complete some form of declaration as to their marital status and intentions during the trip? Obviously if there is a risk then this wouldn't be an option as I wouldn't want her to get a 10 year ban or anything like that. If we decided to risk entering the UK without disclosing any information and she entered on a flight from France, if she were to be denied entry would she be sent back to France? (where I could accompany here and she could remain...)

Yes in regards to the opinion piece, it is our biggest concern that things will change within the EU. We won't be looking to do this for at least 6 months from now as we are just about to travel SE Asia, so hopefully nothing happens in that time. If the UK leaves the EU from my understanding not much would be effected for up to 2 years, assuming EU law doesnt change. We have a back-up plan if things do change in the EU, she would be eligible for a Tier 5 Youth Mobility visa (shes got a good few years until shes 30), it would mean coming back to Korea to get it, but that would allow her 2 years then we can apply for a spouse visa with joint income, which is something I would never be eligible for on my own ground as I'm an artist with an income below 18600gbp.

[awalkinthestreet]

I'm not quite sure how to edit my post...

It was meant to say 'If we decided to risk entering the UK and not withold any information and she entered on a flight from France...'

[Casa]

If you don't declare that you are married, consider the following points:
1. You'll have to travel with your marriage certificate in order to prove your wife is able to move freely in the EU member states (outside of the UK).
2. Entering without a visa frequently flags up the need for a bag search of contents including documents.
3. When you later apply for a spouse visa you will have to submit the marriage certificate and all immigration history, including visa-free entry is held on record.

Bad idea = ban for deception

[awalkinthestreet]

Okay thanks... obviously risking a ban is not an option.

If we flew in from say France, she would be able to get VOA, so unless she is asked any questions, its better to stay quiet I guess. If they ask her intentions, it can be explained to be visiting family and friends and some tourism. Hopefully it would work, but if not I guess the worst that can happen is she would be refused and send back to France... where we can look at other options of buying a vehicle then me flying over to pick it up and driving back to France.

[secret.simon]

The one issue is that we would be self building the van in the UK if we go ahead with this idea. I'm not sure it's possible for me to do it any other way as we have no way to insure a foreign vehicle. I guess the option is to buy an already partly converted van and do the work as we go along if need be.

I suggest the following;
You (the British citizen) fly into the UK alone, leaving your wife in South Korea for a short duration. Build the van, complete all necessary paperwork and drive down to France. Your wife flies into France and you do a continental Europe tour.

When she is ready to come into the UK on the Surinder Singh route is when she enters the UK for the first time. Then she stays here, with minimal absences from the UK (either to the EU or outside it) for five years, until she acquires PR automatically (assuming the UK does not leave the EU).

The law is not as flexible as you interpret it to be. The Home Office's interpretation is much stricter.

[Casa]

Okay thanks... obviously risking a ban is not an option.

If we flew in from say France, she would be able to get VOA, so unless she is asked any questions, its better to stay quiet I guess. If they ask her intentions, it can be explained to be visiting family and friends and some tourism. Hopefully it would work, but if not I guess the worst that can happen is she would be refused and send back to France... where we can look at other options of buying a vehicle then me flying over to pick it up and driving back to France.

She will be asked questions. This is a standard procedure for Immigration Officers at the point of entry when a passenger is requesting a VOA. The luggage check is generally to ascertain whether there is any intention to work in the UK...CV, references from previous employers, 'tools of the trade' etc. My daughter-in-law was refused entry some years ago when entering as a (genuine) visitor as she had a pair of professional hairdresser's scissors in her suitcase.
Your wife can of course say that she is visiting family, but the IO will almost certainly ask for specific details of the family members and could then ask to speak to you to verify facts. VOA still requires the passenger to carry the same documents they would have submitted for a visitor visa application, showing strong ties to the home country. You can probably get a feeling for the procedure if you watch a couple of episodes of UK Border Force, viewable on YouTube. You'll see how adept IOs are at spotting couples who are travelling together, but attempting to pass through Immigration separately with no personal connection.

Playing the devil's advocate....if your wife is returned to France, does she have the right to remain there until you join her?

[awalkinthestreet]

I suggest the following;
You (the British citizen) fly into the UK alone, leaving your wife in South Korea for a short duration. Build the van, complete all necessary paperwork and drive down to France. Your wife flies into France and you do a continental Europe tour.

When she is ready to come into the UK on the Surinder Singh route is when she enters the UK for the first time. Then she stays here, with minimal absences from the UK (either to the EU or outside it) for five years, until she acquires PR automatically (assuming the UK does not leave the EU).

The law is not as flexible as you interpret it to be. The Home Office's interpretation is much stricter.

Thank you. The only issue is that we won't be in South Korea before entry, we will be in India. I guess the same could apply, that she remain in India for a week or two alone and continue travelling there while I return to buy/build the van or at least get it ready enough to bring over to France where we can complete the work at a family member of mines place in Southern France. The other option is to enter France together then for me to pop back over to the UK while she stays with my family in France... I know this is technically not allowed since she must be with me, but she would regardless be eligible for a 90 day schengen visa so makes little difference.

[secret.simon]

The only issue is that we won't be in South Korea before entry, we will be in India. I guess the same could apply, that she remain in India for a week or two alone and continue travelling there while I return to buy/build the van or at least get it ready enough to bring over to France where we can complete the work at a family member of mines place in Southern France.

Correct.

The other option is to enter France together then for me to pop back over to the UK while she stays with my family in France... I know this is technically not allowed since she must be with me, but she would regardless be eligible for a 90 day schengen visa so makes little difference.

Try not mixing national (whether French or UK) and EU law. It can get complicated very fast. Much better to keep it simple and follow the first plan above.

Enjoy India, but take care. It can get uncomfortable weatherwise. And you will want to have your full of innoculations before heading off there.