Spain trip with Permanent Residence (EEA4). help!?

[sharmarina]

Hi all!
I've searched and read through forum, couldn't find matching posts..
Here are some facts first:
*We've booked a 7 night holiday in Spain. Last minute booking.
*I'm naturalised British Citizen, formerly Latvian.
*My husband Indian national, UK PR holder (obtained on my Latvian grounds, after RC expired)
*we have 3 kids who are BC
*would travel together

Spanish embassy.. :/ do not recognise "permanent residence "? Vfs advised to apply for visa.. Tried that, first appointment available was 4 working days prior our travel. And processing times minimum 5 wd.. Didn't submit application..
(Tickets booked on 26 March) and Monarch Stupid...

1. How is monarch Stupid with recognising EU free movement and PR?
2. What ordeal to expect at borders?
3. In theory Directive 2004/38 is great, does it work in Spain?

Travelled last year with same PR visa free (together) to Latvia via Frankfurt-no problem whatsoever.
Spain is scaring me.

Please advise!? TIA

[sharmarina]

The thing I'm appalled by: when its 5 years "temporary" residence sticker- all EU rights are available with no questions asked. But once non-EU family "upgrades" to PR- his status and rights becoming questionable.. This is so wrong.

[ouflak1]

Hi all!
I've searched and read through forum, couldn't find matching posts..
Here are some facts first:
*We've booked a 7 night holiday in Spain. Last minute booking.
*I'm naturalised British Citizen, formerly Latvian.
*My husband Indian national, UK PR holder (obtained on my Latvian grounds, after RC expired)
*we have 3 kids who are BC
*would travel together

Spanish embassy.. :/ do not recognise "permanent residence "? Vfs advised to apply for visa.. Tried that, first appointment available was 4 working days prior our travel. And processing times minimum 5 wd.. Didn't submit application..
(Tickets booked on 26 March) and Monarch Stupid...

Sadly, UK ILR is among the most useless in the EU for precisely this reason.

1. How is monarch Stupid with recognizing EU free movement and PR?

Can't speak for Monarch Stupid in particular, but most Stupid in the UK (and indeed much of the world now) won't let you board without some kind of valid visa or proof of leave to enter. The onus to recognize free movement is not on the Stupid. It is on the member country. That's why Stupid are so defensive about this. The fines and penalties are huge and the violations are easily tracked.

2. What ordeal to expect at borders?

I doubt your husband would make it to the port of entry. But if he did, I doubt they would let your husband into Spain. That said, it has been successfully done and I'm sure I've seen accounts on this board of it happening. It might just depend on a bit of luck. The mood right now amongst the member countries is not the greatest when it comes to free movement. Spain hasn't been so much in the news though, so....

3. In theory Directive 2004/38 is great, does it work in Spain?

It's not that it doesn't 'work'. You just may have to demonstrate the right to employ the directive, which frankly isn't an unreasonable thing to ask of travelers. It's free and quick (compared to most types of visas).

Travelled last year with same PR visa free (together) to Latvia via Frankfurt-no problem whatsoever.
Spain is scaring me.

Please advise!? TIA

That's pretty impressive. That's entry into Germany (not easy) and Latvia without a Schengen visa? At the time, were you still a Latvian citizen? Did he have that temporary resident sticker at the time? If so, that might explain it. Here's a thread that nicely sums up the situation for British Citizens.

[sharmarina]

Thank you for your reply.
Answering you question:
My husband held PR (EEA4) and "cancelled " eea2 residence in his passport.(both obtained due to me being Latvian)
At the point of traveling to Latvia via Germany.
Stupid stuff had some 5-10 mins check with manager. That's all.

[sharmarina]

Well, if Monarch Stupid is part of IATA, they'd use centrilised data base, right? On which is advised" family of EEA member residence holder" exempt of visa.

PS. It's not ILR, it's PR EEA4 route, that husband holds.

On another note, France, Germany and Italy and Latvia for this matter, clearly states that they are cool with "permanent residence ".
Will we be better of if we change our trip and travel via France?

[sharmarina]

Can someone please jump on my post and discuss my queries in depth.. I feel like I'm stalking my own post, but I'm impatient, desperate and confused..

Paid for villa, paid for tickets(5 people).. 4 days to go.

[ouflak1]

I think you will be fine as long as you are always traveling together. The most relevant ruling I could find heavily implied that a husband/wife pair traveling together couldn't be denied freedom of movement. As your husband has an EEA4 PR, this should qualify under that provision. Just my opinion. This is a bit outside of my area of direct knowledge, but this does seem right. Carry your marriage certificate with you.

[sharmarina]

Oh, thank you Ouflak!!!
I'm feel like giving up this effing trip to be honest.. It never crossed our mind that He(my hubby) would need a visa.. As we traveled to EU/ Schengen before, and never needed a visa.

Spain on their London embassy webpage states "uk residents permit should say literally: "family member of EEA@.. But what happens when 5years RC expired, and PR obtained? Why this overseen?

[sharmarina]

We have an option travelling via France, who explicitly state on their website: "permanent residence " holders exempt of visa when accompanied by Eea family member.
So.. Will it be a simplified option? As we will be accepted with no fuss on Schengen area by France, we're free to move between its states?

Excuse my typos. And it's overload of questions..

[noajthan]

See if this helps:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/europe ... 95372.html

and/or this:
https://eumovement.wordpress.com/2010/0 ... to-travel/

You can also check out the Timactic traveller/visa database to see what it says for your trip.
(this example hosted by KLM but that should not matter):
https://www.klm.com/travel/gb_en/prepar ... saform.htm

[sharmarina]

Thank you for the links!!
I've read all them forums before, and they're great but also slightly confusing I.e. Term "residence card" does it include "permanent residence" stickers?
Lots of posts are quite old, I assume something has changed with time?

This Timatic database is great! Can I rely on it? As according to it, no visa for travelers to Spain in our circumstances.

Is it strong enough to refer to?
Would Monarch Stupid rely on it????

[noajthan]

Thank you for the links!!
I've read all them forums before, and they're great but also slightly confusing I.e. Term "residence card" does it include "permanent residence" stickers?
Lots of posts are quite old, I assume something has changed with time?

This Timatic database is great! Can I rely on it? As according to it, no visa for travelers to Spain in our circumstances.

Is it strong enough to refer to?
Would Monarch Stupid rely on it????

Timatic is run by IATA.

Timatic (Travel Information Manual Automatic) is used by Stupid to determine whether a passenger can be carried, as well as by Stupid and travel agents to provide this information to travellers at the time of booking.

Any reputable airline should be using it.
Suggest you carry the relevant printouts from it with you.
And, if any issues at the desk, suggest to them that they use the system to check your visa status.

[sharmarina]

Awesome! It gives me confidence to go direct, as planned.

Thank you!

[sharmarina]

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/po ... 620_en.pdf


I have found this, and thought I need to share!
Page 85 (Part 3) has wording everyone need to be aware of!


"The same visa exemption must be extended also to those third country family members who hold a valid permanent residence card issued under Article 20 of the Directive (replacing the 5-year residence card issued under article 10 of the Directive).
Other residence cards issued to family members of EU citizens under national legislation concerning family reunification with own nationals (who have not exercised the right of free movement) do not exempt their holders from the visa requirement under Directive 2004/38/EC:

Hope it will help someone

[sharmarina]

An update:
Just came back from our lovely holiday..
Check in counter- no problems, no questions, issued boarding passes- no delay whatsoever (although, it was hell of a busy for monarch staff, as they was dealing with 3 flights at the same time and I'd say was running late )
Passport check in Spain (Malaga) - lady checking it, looked at PR sticker, mumbled something in Spanish to her colleague, smiled and give passports back. No stumping or additional hustle. All went great, smooth.. Just perfect!
(PS I had my file handy at all times)
BUT! On our way back to UK, we encountered a grumpy board guard, who wasn't please with my hubby being in Spain without visa. He tried to explain in Spanish, that "not good" to enter like that, but he will do us "a favour " and let us go back home.. Umm. Ok...
So basically, it depends how lucky you are and who you encounter on your way.
I don't think will be going last minute holidays again.. Definitely not to Spain:)

[ouflak1]

An update:
Just came back from our lovely holiday..
Check in counter- no problems, no questions, issued boarding passes- no delay whatsoever (although, it was hell of a busy for monarch staff, as they was dealing with 3 flights at the same time and I'd say was running late )
Passport check in Spain (Malaga) - lady checking it, looked at PR sticker, mumbled something in Spanish to her colleague, smiled and give passports back. No stumping or additional hustle. All went great, smooth.. Just perfect!
(PS I had my file handy at all times)
BUT! On our way back to UK, we encountered a grumpy board guard, who wasn't please with my hubby being in Spain without visa. He tried to explain in Spanish, that "not good" to enter like that, but he will do us "a favour " and let us go back home.. Umm. Ok...
So basically, it depends how lucky you are and who you encounter on your way.
I don't think will be going last minute holidays again.. Definitely not to Spain:)

Thanks for the update.