Req for EEA PR app. Non EEA (37 Y) + Dutch Dad (70 Y)

[akhr90]

Hi Everyone,

I have been reading and looking at this board from the last 3 years and it is indeed one of the best place.
This is my first post here I am due to apply for my EEA PR, my RC will expire on 7th July 2016. I would like to know what are the document requirement to apply for EEA PR.

Details about myself(My age is 37) & Sponsor (He is my dad of age 70):

Myself (NON-EEA):
I am NON-EEA Family member, I am working continuous full time from the last 5 years and got all the P60+P45 of my job along with bank statement. And I got married in South Asia she (Also NON-EEA extended family member) came to UK in Feb 2014 on FP (6 Month) And my wife got RC (5 years in just 11 days) in Sep 2014 I got a Son born last year just 2 months ago I applied for his Child Benefits, Is it going to effect my PR application? Regarding this I have spoken to EEA UKBA team they said nothing will happen its fine as I am entitled too. What are the documents requirement for me?

My Sponsor: (Dutch Citizen)
He is 70 and getting Pension from Netherlands, Pension from UK, Pension credit, Housing benefits, council tax support. When my wife got RC(5Years in 11 days) at that time my dad was still getting housing benefits, council tax support too.
What are the documents requirement for him?

Just more info my first application was refused in 2011 when I first applied for RC as I was 32 at that time but won the case on appeal.

Please advise regarding this, would be much obliged for anyone contribute.

Regards
AKHR

[noajthan]

Have you read the PR guidance?
Its quite comprehensive.

If you are now working full-time and supporting a family are you sure you are still dependent on your sponsor?
(Children over age 21 need to show financial dependency).

If father was working in UK for at least 12 months before retiring (and had resided in UK for at least 3 years) it may be you can acquire PR through him being a Union citizen who has ceased economic activity even before the 'normal' 5 years that is usually required to acquire PR status.

You can also qualify (for confirmation of PR) if you are:

• an EEA national former worker or self-employed person who has ceased activity in the UK because you have retired, are permanently incapacitated, or you’re now working or self-employed;
  the family member or extended family member of an EEA national who has ceased activity;

All as per Regulation 5 of UK EEA Regulations:
http://www.eearegulations.co.uk/Latest/ByPage/part1_5

If you meet the requirements, there is no need to wait until you have served 5 years in UK.

[akhr90]

Hi Noajthan,

Thank you for the reply.

I have read that guidance in details but when I saw the new EEA PR form (87 Pages 03/2016) I was bit confused.

When he came here in Jun 2010 he worked for 9 months and since then he is self employed registered and also getting his pension. We both are living together along with my wife and son.

If he is getting benefits and I am getting child benefit is this going to effect my PR application? Please advise if you have any case or any other reference.

Regards and thank you again.

[noajthan]

Hi Noajthan,

Thank you for the reply.

I have read that guidance in details but when I saw the new EEA PR form (87 Pages 03/2016) I was bit confused.

When he came here in Jun 2010 he worked for 9 months and since then he is self employed registered and also getting his pension. We both are living together along with my wife and son.

If he is getting benefits and I am getting child benefit is this going to effect my PR application? Please advise if you have any case or any other reference.

Regards and thank you again.

So father has resided in UK 5 or 6 years which covers the 3 years clause.

He worked for 9 months then switched to self-employment. So that may have made up one year of economic activity.

But to invoke the regulation about ceasing activity (Reg 5) he needs to have stopped;
however it seems he's still working (self-employed) so that Regulation 5 won't be triggered yet.

Not sure.
Lets see other members' thoughts.

Otherwise, if you rely on the regular regulations I think you need to show dependency on your sponsor (as his over-21 year old child).
Not sure how you can show that if he is semi-retired and you are working full-time.
How can father be providing you and your family's essential needs?

Alternately, perhaps you are now only EFMs. Do you all have current RCs issued to you as EFMs?
And nowadays do all live in same household with father as head of his/this household?

Again stand by for the hive mind of the forum and other members.

[akhr90]

Hi Again,

Please can you tell me in a bit details about ''But to invoke the regulation about ceasing activity (Reg 5) he needs to have stopped'' I haven't done his tax return for 2015/2016. Should I inform HMRC that last year he stopped working from April 2015. Will this helps? And in addition to this last year he had a bypass surgery in May 2015 so he is not working at all.

And also please can you detailed about ''Alternately, perhaps you are now only EFMs. Do you all have current RCs issued to you as EFMs? And nowadays do all live in same household with father as head of his/this household?''
Yes, we are all living together, myself & my wife got RC and haven't applied anything yet for my son but made his Non EEA passport. I was thinking I will apply for my son's british passport after getting EEA PR. What do you advise ??

Thanks again.

[akhr90]

Hi Again

If I showed him that he stopped working from last year. What will happen to my wife's RC? Can she get it after completing her 3 years in Sep 2017?

Please advise.

Thank you again.

[noajthan]

Hi Again,

Please can you tell me in a bit details about ''But to invoke the regulation about ceasing activity (Reg 5) he needs to have stopped'' I haven't done his tax return for 2015/2016. Should I inform HMRC that last year he stopped working from April 2015. Will this helps? And in addition to this last year he had a bypass surgery in May 2015 so he is not working at all.

And also please can you detailed about ''Alternately, perhaps you are now only EFMs. Do you all have current RCs issued to you as EFMs? And nowadays do all live in same household with father as head of his/this household?''
Yes, we are all living together, myself & my wife got RC and haven't applied anything yet for my son but made his Non EEA passport. I was thinking I will apply for my son's british passport after getting EEA PR. What do you advise ??

Thanks again.

Yes, if father has ceased economic activity he should notify tax authorities, (VAT office, maybe) & etc.

Have you got RCs issued to you as extended family members?

Is father head of the household (is it his house)?

Why does son not have a RC?
- if he is a non-EAA extended dependent of grandfather (as he can't be your dependent in this context) then he will surely need an EFM RC too.

Where was son born?
His place of birth and the question of parents' status may impact timing for any registration of son.
(Depending on details, son is unlikely to be British yet so will be unable to apply direct for a passport anytime soon).

[noajthan]

Hi Again

If I showed him that he stopped working from last year. What will happen to my wife's RC? Can she get it after completing her 3 years in Sep 2017?

Please advise.

Thank you again.

All your next steps depend on a clear picture of your sponsor/father's status.

But what is the significance of 3 years and 2017 for wife's RC?

PR is acquired in 5 years normally. That is, unless in your case, this Regulation 5 can be used to cut that regular qualifying time short.
Not 100% sure about that as all in all yours is a bit of an unusual case.

[Richard W]

Why does son not have a RC?
- if he is a non-EAA extended dependent of grandfather (as he can't be your dependent in this context) then he will surely need an EFM RC too.

The OP's son is under 21 and is a direct descendent of the OP's father, and therefore his direct family member.

[noajthan]

Why does son not have a RC?
- if he is a non-EAA extended dependent of grandfather (as he can't be your dependent in this context) then he will surely need an EFM RC too.

The OP's son is under 21 and is a direct descendent of the OP's father, and therefore his direct family member.

Incorrect.
Kindly read the case before jumping in.
This kind of confusing and point-scoring style of posting is getting close to not being tolerated as it is disturbing and distracting for OP.

Which part of In this context is unclear?
Not in the context of some arbitrary or imagined or wished-for post.

As per OP:

Myself (NON-EEA):
I am NON-EEA Family member,

OP cannot sponsor anyone in this context as the OP is being sponsored himself.

OP is only being recognised by HO as a family member dependent of a (semi-)retired parent after an appeal;
its likely he was recognised only as an EFM and not as a FM due to peculiarities of the case.

[Richard W]

Why does son not have a RC?
- if he is a non-EAA extended dependent of grandfather (as he can't be your dependent in this context) then he will surely need an EFM RC too.

The OP's son is under 21 and is a direct descendent of the OP's father, and therefore his direct family member.

Incorrect.
This kind of confusing posting is getting close to not being tolerated as it is disturbing and distracting for OP.

Which part of In this context is unclear?
Not in the context of some arbitrary or imagined or wished-for post.

As per OP:

Myself (NON-EEA):
I am NON-EEA Family member,

OP cannot sponsor anyone in this context as the OP is being sponsored himself.

The OP's son is a direct family member of the OP's father. The OP's father is Dutch.

[noajthan]

The OP's son is a direct family member of the OP's father. The OP's father is Dutch.

The father is apparently retired. The OP is working. The case is a puzzle as to who is dependent on who. Despite existence of some RCs its not clear if sponsor is exercising treaty rights anymore (or has to do so). The status of the child has not been fully explained by the OP so I was asking the OP by elucidation. Let the OP provide his facts for his case.

[akhr90]

Hi Noajthan,

You are honestly a star, clearing so many points.

Ok let me tell you in summarize way:

House is rented on Dad's name he is the head of household.

My Father (Sponsor Dutch )
Came to UK June 2010
Worked for 9 months
After that he was self employed until March 2015.
Getting pension from NL, pension from UK, pension credit, housing benefits, council tax support.

Myself (Non-EEA)
Got 5 Year RC in July 2011 until July 2016. (As direct family member)
Worked full time until today. Claimed CB 3 months ago.
Q. Do you think Reg 5 is best for me and is CB going to effect my PR?

My Wife (Non-EEA)
Got FP 6 months from Feb 2014-Sep 2014 (As an Extended family member)
She got 5 Year RC in Sep 2014 until Sep 2019.
Q. As my dad stopped working after his bypass last year can my wife apply for PR after completing her 3 years or she has to wait for 5 years?

My Son
Born in UK May 2015 (Got his British Birth certificate). I have only made his Non EEA passport, hasn't applied for his RC yet.
Q. Should I apply for his RC as well? Or should I wait for my PR first and after getting my PR should I apply for his british passport or he has to have an RC as well?


And my last question is should I apply for my father PR as well? In the same application or separate? And can I include my son with my application? Or should I apply all application separately?


Many thanks in advance for your help.

Have a nice evening.

Best Regards,
AKHR.

[noajthan]

Hi Noajthan,

You are honestly a star, clearing so many points.

Ok let me tell you in summarize way:

House is rented on Dad's name he is the head of household.

My Father (Sponsor Dutch )
Came to UK June 2010
Worked for 9 months
After that he was self employed until March 2015.
Getting pension from NL, pension from UK, pension credit, housing benefits, council tax support.

Myself (Non-EEA)
Got 5 Year RC in July 2011 until July 2016. (As direct family member)
Worked full time until today. Claimed CB 3 months ago.
Q. Do you think Reg 5 is best for me and is CB going to effect my PR?

My Wife (Non-EEA)
Got FP 6 months from Feb 2014-Sep 2014 (As an Extended family member)
She got 5 Year RC in Sep 2014 until Sep 2019.
Q. As my dad stopped working after his bypass last year can my wife apply for PR after completing her 3 years or she has to wait for 5 years?

My Son
Born in UK May 2015 (Got his British Birth certificate). I have only made his Non EEA passport, hasn't applied for his RC yet.
Q. Should I apply for his RC as well? Or should I wait for my PR first and after getting my PR should I apply for his british passport or he has to have an RC as well?

And my last question is should I apply for my father PR as well? In the same application or separate? And can I include my son with my application? Or should I apply all application separately?

Many thanks in advance for your help.

Have a nice evening.

Best Regards,
AKHR.

I would agree it would be prudent to pin down your father's status.
It does not seem like he's exercising treaty rights anymore as he has now retired. More on this below.

I will assume (unless you advise otherwise) that father did not enjoy any prolonged absences from UK since 2010. Is that correct?

Your sponsor/father almost (but not quite) had 5 years of exercising treaty rights under his belt (from 2010);
that is, assuming the self-employment is accepted as having been genuine and effective.

That's not quite enough time to have acquired PR in the 'normal' way unless sponsor became a self-sufficient person (with CSI in place) since retiring in Spring 2015.

If sponsor/father did not acquire PR that 'normal' way then hopefully Regulation 5 will have been triggered (due to the more than 3 years residence and more than 12 months of economic activity before ceasing such activity).
I don't know much about Reg 5 but that appears to be the approach to take.

Regarding you and wife hopefully your statuses can hang off father/sponsor's confirmation of PR status.
If he has acquired PR (via Reg 5) then its my understanding that you both have too, regardless of not yet serving 5 years in UK.

However this doesn't include your baby son!
I have just realised your son was born after your sponsor had retired. So that's a slight complication to come back to.
Hopefully your sponsor will be confirmed as having acquired PR by then but it needs some thought about the impact on your child. See below,

If father has not acquired PR by Reg 5 (and does not have CSI as a self-sufficient person) then you will all have a problem (including baby son) as you will have been without a sponsor since early 2015.

OP, your economic activity is immaterial in terms of acquiring PR.
Regarding the CB question I'm not sure about it - stand by for others' responses.

One concern is whether you have to show you are still dependent on sponsor at the time of his retirement(/acquisition of his confirmation of PR);
ie dependent for a percentage (up to 50%) of your essential daily needs (eg food and housing costs).
I just don't know.

You are clearly over 21 so a direct family member would have to show financial dependency on sponsor.

As you were in full-time employment in 2015 and father was ill (and presumably ramping down his self-employment activities in early 2015) when he retired I sense you had morphed into an EFM;
I can't understand how you were granted a RC unless HO (or perhaps the appeal judge) considered you to be a member of your sponsor's household rather than a financially-dependent family member(?).

If HO now deem you to be an EFM (although strangely it seems that at the time of grant of your RC, by appeal, it was deemed you were a direct FM) then you would only have to show membership of household (& not dependency).
The same reasoning applies to your wife as her sponsor's daughter-in-law.

If the application under Reg 5 works out, my understanding is wife does not need 5 years under her belt to acquire PR by that route.
That's the whole point of invoking Regulation 5.

I don't think baby son can apply for confirmation of PR yet as his potential sponsor (grandfather) had retired before the child's birth.
In other words child was not a direct family member dependent at the time the sponsor ceased economic activity. Child was born too late for that.

If all works out with you and Reg 5 granting your PR status then it doesn't seem to matter anymore whether baby son has an EEA sponsor.
This would save baby a potential 5 year wait to acquire PR (by residing in same country as a sponsor who holds PR).
That's because if your PR is confirmed your baby can go for citizenship.

In any case baby son cannot apply for a British passport directly.
He will have to be registered as a BC under section 1(3) of BNA first.
That is once one of his parents has got settled status (PR).

Edit : have just realised that if one of parents' PR status is confirmed as being acquired before baby was born then baby will have been born British.

Takeaway: Reg 5 appears to be the approach to take for confirmation of PR for EEA sponsor, OP and OP's wife.

For this reason I don't think baby son need to worry about the EU migration trajectory (nor a RC nor about acquiring confirmation of PR).
If you as parents acquire PR then your son will be in clover.

Depending on precise timings:
Either first shoot for citizenship for baby then the holy grail of British passport.
Or, if lucky, baby will have been born a British citizen (if one of parents' PR came before DoB): if so, shoot straight for his passport.

If Reg 5 fails you will all need a Plan B.

[akhr90]

Hi Noajthan ,

Many thanks for your valuable words.

Currently I am only looking for my EEA PR as my RC will expire in first week of July 2016. Honestly speaking I haven't informed HMRC regarding dad's health situation. I can file his tax return now for 2015/2016 and will show nothing as it stated by HMRC even if you didn't earn anything even then you have to do the tax return which he genuinely didn't do anything I can get letters from the hospital and from GP regarding his health condition. But question is after doing this as you stated previously who is going to be dependent on whom? I am thinking about this.

One thing I want to add while I was checking all the documents an hour ago. When I applied for my wife RC in Aug 2014, my dad was getting all benefits at that time and I was working full time and submitted all the payslips along with dad's tax return documents and benefits details. And my wife got her RC in just 11 days which I received in 7 months back in 2011.

What do you suggest which route should I take after all the above details? Reg 5 or anything else, you have been very helpful.

Hope to hear from you again.

Best regards,

[akhr90]

My sincere apologies forgot to mention that my father moved to UK permanently so no absence from UK. Only 2 months in 2012 to Non EEA country.

[noajthan]

Hi Noajthan ,

Many thanks for your valuable words.

Currently I am only looking for my EEA PR as my RC will expire in first week of July 2016. Honestly speaking I haven't informed HMRC regarding dad's health situation. I can file his tax return now for 2015/2016 and will show nothing as it stated by HMRC even if you didn't earn anything even then you have to do the tax return which he genuinely didn't do anything I can get letters from the hospital and from GP regarding his health condition. But question is after doing this as you stated previously who is going to be dependent on whom? I am thinking about this.

One thing I want to add while I was checking all the documents an hour ago. When I applied for my wife RC in Aug 2014, my dad was getting all benefits at that time and I was working full time and submitted all the payslips along with dad's tax return documents and benefits details. And my wife got her RC in just 11 days which I received in 7 months back in 2011.

What do you suggest which route should I take after all the above details? Reg 5 or anything else, you have been very helpful.

Hope to hear from you again.

Best regards,

Suggest someone contacts HMRC and sorts all that tax stuff out. That's father's responsibility really.

As I understand it, Regulation 5 can (and has to) work for you - it's your one shot at this.
Otherwise, you don't have a viable sponsor, not since early 2015 (unless Dad happens to have CSI in place)

Frankly I can't figure out all the benefits angles to this nor how you proved dependency.

All I can say about that is that clearly the status of all parties was evidently 'good' and 'acceptable' in the end (under EEA Regulations and possibly case law) for your appeal to come through;
good enough to support your case, to prove your dependency (&/or membership of sponsor's household?),

Overall, it was good enough for the system to award you the RC/s.
So on the day/s that happened there were no issues with your status, your dependency nor about anyone's access to benefits.

As RCs are not visas (they only reflect holder's status on day of issue) that may not be the case now.

Happy for informed advice from others on this complex case.

[noajthan]

My sincere apologies forgot to mention that my father moved to UK permanently so no absence from UK. Only 2 months in 2012 to Non EEA country.

So no worries over continuity of residence at least.
People are allowed time away from the UK weather but Dad was evidently a workaholic.

btw - I have just updated the previous lengthy post to correct thoughts about your son's status;
(as he was born after grandfather retired his way ahead is also somewhat complex).

Not sure if you saw that latest edit to that post?

Long story short. Reg 5 has to work for your sponsor, you (OP) plus your wife.
Once all 3 have confirmation of PR (including baby's parents) you can apply to register baby son as a citizen.

Edit: if lucky, baby may have been born a British citizen (if one of parents' PR came before DoB): if so, shoot straight for his passport.

[akhr90]

Much appreciate for all the advice. Great help.

Just last question should I apply for EEA PR with my dad as well or seperately?

Many thanks.

[noajthan]

Much appreciate for all the advice. Great help.

Just last question should I apply for EEA PR with my dad as well or seperately?

Many thanks.

You, wife and EEA father/sponsor can apply together (suggest invoking Regulation 5 route): one form.
(EEA father/sponsor as main applicant).

From current PR form:

You can include your family members (including extended family members) in this application if they also qualify for permanent residence

It seems very unclear if HO is treating you as an FM or an EFM of your EEA parent/sponsor.
It seems they are definitely treating your wife as EFM of sponsor/father-in-law even though she is your spouse;
(at face value she is a direct family member as daughter-in-law of her EEA sponsor).

And however they considered you before does not mean they will see you in the same category this time as circumstances seem to have changed significantly (and yours was not a clearcut case even first time round).
Hence my earlier questioning about 'actual' status of family members (including your baby son) rather than their default 'face-value' status.

As explained above, I can't see how your child has acquired PR yet.
And yet if you and/or wife get your confirmations of PR he doesn't need his PR status anyway.

Edit: if lucky, baby will have been born a British citizen (if one of parents' PR came before DoB): if so, shoot straight for his passport.
If born before your confirmed PR date he will have to be registered first once you have confirmation of PR settled status, as explained previously.

If you as parent/s don't get confirmation of PR but sponsor/grandfather does then baby could acquire PR after 5 years residence;
(ie with grandfather as his sponsor).

If your father/sponsor doesn't get his PR confirmed then not sure what next steps are for any of you.

[vinny]

Just more info my first application was refused in 2011 when I first applied for RC as I was 32 at that time but won the case on appeal.

It may be useful to know the basis on which you were refused and how you won your appeal.

Were you treated as a dependent family member or an extended family member in the same household of your father?

[akhr90]

Hi Vinny/Noajthan

My wife was treated as extended family member and i would like to share all my case decision with you for a clear picture. How can I upload any file on this forum so that I can scan all my case outcome and share with u?

Also one more thing if we all go for Reg 5. Will my dad be able to sponsor anyone in future if he want to bring his other sons here from NON EEA country?

Thanks.

Regards

[noajthan]

Hi Vinny/Noajthan

My wife was treated as extended family member and i would like to share all my case decision with you for a clear picture. How can I upload any file on this forum so that I can scan all my case outcome and share with u?

Also one more thing if we all go for Reg 5. Will my dad be able to sponsor anyone in future if he want to bring his other sons here from NON EEA country?

Thanks.

Regards

You can only attach certain file types (possibly size-limited).
If you attach something, do anonymise it first.

If your father has PR status confirmed (or else reverts to exercising treaty rights in one or other category of qualified person) then my understanding is he could, in principle, sponsor dependents (various family members) under the regulations and EU law.
ie if they are dependent on him in some way (& can prove it).

You can get a handle on such matters here, for FM:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... s_v3_0.pdf

& here for EFM:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _clean.pdf

[noajthan]

Note: rereading the above documents suggests it is only direct family members who can qualify for confirmation of PR under Regulation 5 due to retirement of sponsor.
Ref page 23 of first doc (direct FM).

Something you may wish to dig into further.

If that is the case then daughter-in-law may have to serve her 5 years of residence in UK (with EEA sponsor) after all (as HO appear to have classed her as an EFM for some reason).

In this case, the usual caveats would apply: you remain married; wife remains dependent on EEA sponsor, sponsor remains in UK, no Brexit & etc.

This will still not impact baby son if you (OP) have your PR status confirmed as a direct FM.

[noajthan]

...

Ok let me tell you in summarize way:
House is rented on Dad's name he is the head of household.

My Father (Sponsor Dutch)
Came to UK June 2010
Worked for 9 months
After that he was self employed until March 2015.
Getting pension from NL, pension from UK, pension credit, housing benefits, council tax support

...

Due care and diligence. Looking again at Regulation 5 of EEA Regulations in the interest of crosschecking and verification.

Worker or self-employed person who has ceased activity

5.(1) In these Regulations,
“worker or self-employed person who has ceased activity” means an EEA national who satisfies the conditions in paragraph (2), (3), (4) or (5).

(2) A person satisfies the conditions in this paragraph if he
(a)terminates his activity as a worker or self-employed person and
(i)has reached the age at which he is entitled to a state pension on the date on which he terminates his activity; or
(ii) in the case of a worker, ceases working to take early retirement;
(b )pursued his activity as a worker or self-employed person in the United Kingdom for at least twelve months prior to the termination; and
(c) resided in the United Kingdom continuously for more than three years prior to the termination.

Ref http://www.eearegulations.co.uk/Latest/ByPage/part1_5

It looks like EEA sponsor/father was 68 or 69 years old on retirement - is that correct
Is it safe to say father was at or over state retirement age when he retired in 2015