Re: Level 1 users in schools and colleges

[JanHH]

Hello

I have just registered on this forum and have a general question. I am not a visa applicant, but I deal with a great many visa-related issues in my work in an international college, where I am the nominated Level 1 user, issuing CASs and generally chivvying people into getting the right visa before they start their courses here with us. I have long searched (and even thought of starting myself – if I only knew how!) a Forum specifically for staff in schools/colleges in a similar situation to myself who, out of necessity, do have to know quite a lot about the immigration and visa rules and regulations, even though we are not applying ourselves for a visa.

As such, it would be extremely useful to have a place where people such as myself (dealing mainly with Tier 4 (Child) visas) can meet and exchange information, particularly when the rules relating to Tier 4 visas change or something new comes up which one hasn’t been asked before, because, despite the UKVI’s promises, finding a specific answer to a specific question via their website is often not dissimilar to trying to find a needle in a haystack, as the website is so vast and the documents contained within it are so enormous, and it is made all the more difficult (to continue the analogy) when one cannot even be certain that the “needle” in question is actually there in the “haystack” at all! And getting a concise, straightforward answer via their myriad telephone numbers is even worse!

So this is a question to the administrators of the site, to ask if there is a section on this board anywhere which particularly deals with questions, queries, information etc for people in a similar situation to myself, i.e. school staff working on the "schools side" of the whole visa process? Or is this board solely directed towards visa applicants themselves?

With many thanks.

[noajthan]

Welcome aboard.

I am not a Board administrator but simply one of the Board moderators.

You may have just found the right place. The Board is a broad church and is focused on immigration matters, not necessarily on visa applicants.
Collectively the membership has a deep and wide-ranging knowledge and experience in most areas.
You may have noticed the board is dynamic, lively and generally active around the clock.

This sub-forum is the Tier 4 area of the Board and would be a good starting point to post such topics of interest.
Clearly this is a public forum so one would have to exercise appropriate levels of discretion and anonymity.

There is not a specific sub-forum for international student advisors (either for university or school or college staff) - however that could be requested for consideration.

You would make such a request via the 'Comments about discussion board' forum and it might be something that would be considered, especially if a significant ISA community develops.

[JanHH]

Many thanks for this. I will drop a line to the “Comments about …” section as you have suggested and see what they think.

[sah10406]

Doesn't UKCISA fulfill this role, with their Members Advice Line, training courses and their Members Forum?

http://institutions.ukcisa.org.uk/Info- ... --schools/

[JanHH]

Many thanks for this. Funnily enough, when I was last thinking about this issue, I did get in contact with UKCISA, but the member of staff that I spoke to there informed me that their forum pretty much only deals with issues relating to Tier 4 (General) applications (of which we issue very few) and only very occasionally mentions/discusses Tier 4 (Child) matters except when they overlap a bit (which they sometimes do). She explained that this was because almost all of their members were university-level (or similar) establishments and so very few of them had any cause to deal with Tier 4 (Child) applications. Which was disappointing, but honest, at least!

[Frontier Mole]

I have pretty extensive knowledge in your particular field. I have provided advice and support to ISI, given numerous presentations to the Independent Schools Bursars and currently support a few of the most prestigious internationally regognised public schools in the UK.

If I can't give you an answer I know a few people that can

[sah10406]

While it sounds like there probably is a gap, I am not at all sure it is best filled by a public discussion board like this.

UKCISA's brief specifically includes supporting staff at schools. I advise contacting the Membership people there to discuss your sector's needs and how UKCISA might help meet them. See http://institutions.ukcisa.org.uk/Info- ... ontact-Us/

[Frontier Mole]

UKCIS is a wonderful support for FE HEI types and is used as a lobbying tool by many of the top interested parties.

As a support network for independent schools it is not a particularly worthy resource. As the OP points out.... They don't cater for Tier 4 child... Says it all really.

[JanHH]

Many thanks for your offer of help, Frontier Mole. Is it best to contact you here with questions, or is there another area which would be better? Perhaps inevitably, I do actually have a query which it would be useful to pick your brains on, but I don’t want to start a conversation on here if this isn’t the right spot for it. It's actually quite a small matter, really - certainly nothing contentious or confidential, but it is just the kind of question which it is useful ask on a board like this rather than spending about an hour trying to find the answer on the UKVI website, possibly unsuccessfully!

[noajthan]

Many thanks for your offer of help, Frontier Mole. Is it best to contact you here with questions, or is there another area which would be better? Perhaps inevitably, I do actually have a query which it would be useful to pick your brains on, but I don’t want to start a conversation on here if this isn’t the right spot for it. It's actually quite a small matter, really - certainly nothing contentious or confidential, but it is just the kind of question which it is useful ask on a board like this rather than spending about an hour trying to find the answer on the UKVI website, possibly unsuccessfully!

You may post a new topic/question in this sub-forum if not confidential.

(Members cannot enjoy the Board PM feature until they have made 30 posts).

[JanHH]

Many thanks for your answer, noajthan. OK then, here goes with my first couple of questions.

The first concerns the CAS refusal rate for schools. When I attended one of the Border Agency’s seminars for Level 1 users, at one point one of the speakers stated that CASs associated with a visa application which was rejected for reasons other than the CAS itself (i.e. wrong financial information etc) would not count against a college’s refusal rate when it came to the yearly compliance check for Sponsor status. But since then I haven’t been able to find any written reference to this in any of the guidelines – all the written guidelines I have simply seem to state the “flat” acceptable rate of associated-refusals without indicating that there are any “exemptions.”

So that’s one question. The other question which I was curious about also stems from the same seminar where we were informed (much to the surprise of all attendees) that if a student leaves their course early, but either goes back to their home country or continues their education at another school in the UK, then those students do not count (again with reference to the compliance check) as “non completers,” even though, of course, the Border Agency would have been informed that they had left prematurely. Again, I can find no written reference to this anywhere.

[keysersoze22]

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... 016-04.pdf

Section 1.

All Visa refusals will count against your Basic Compliance Assessment. The only ones that are removed are ones where the Admin Review was won.

Page 6 + 7 for your second query

[Frontier Mole]

Have a look at para 2.24 - independent schools are treated completely differently from private colleges. It is covered as a discretionary point purely to allow this to happen.

The basic unwritten principles for independent schools is as long as you are not abusing the system it is highly unlikely that you will lose your licence even if you do not actually pass BCA.

It does not excuse independent schools from trying to meet the BCA requirements and continued failure would result in licence loss.

Generally for all but the larger independent schools the number of CAS issued is below the deminmus number in any case.

[JanHH]

Many thanks, both of you, for clarifying these issues for me. This is exactly the kind of conversation that I need – it’s so helpful to be in direct contact with others who know how the system works!

Many thanks, keysersoze, for directing me towards P7 of the guidance. Just one further question, though, if I may: under para 2.21 on that page it says that “the calculation will not include …” etc, but try as I might, I can’t quite ascertain whether, when they refer to “the calculation” they mean the calculation for the number of courses completed (in which case the bullet-pointed cases would count as non-completers), or whether they mean the calculation for the number of drop-outs (in which case the bullet-pointed cases would not count as non-completers). I think they mean that these people wouldn’t be counted as non-completers (which would back up what I heard at the seminar), but am I reading that right? I think this is also backed up by para 2.23, but again, I’m not absolutely sure, when that paragraph says “ … that student will be counted when assessing the sponsor’s course completion rate” whether they mean that they will be counted “in” (i.e. completed) or counted “out” (i.e. non-completed).

Thank you, too, Frontier Mole, for pointing out paragraph 2.24. This ties in with the Border Agency’s stated intention, at the seminar I attended, of dealing rather more understandingly with small-scale CAS users (where, for example, a couple of refusals under the old system could spell disaster if they were only issuing a tiny number of CASs in the first place). Irritatingly, we don’t qualify for this discretionary arrangement on any of their bullet points – darn it!!

[Frontier Mole]

Are you an independent school - if the answer is yes then 2.24 is engaged. You don't have to meet all the points just that one....