EEA (PR) Application - Question about evidence

[daveywavey]

Hi guys,
My first ever post here
I have some questions about filling out EEA (PR) form, hoping someone more experienced can help me out.

So, I am from EU, have been in the UK for the past 8 years (mix of study and work):
- I entered UK in 2008
- in 2008 I worked for a few months - NO WRS - DOES NOT COUNT
- also in 2008 I started my first degree that finished in 2011 - NO CSI - DOES NOT COUNT
NOW
- from 2011 until 2016 I have a 5 year period when I both studied and worked - so this would be my qualifying period

My questions are
- do I need to send evidence even for the years I know I won't qualify as exercising treaty rights?
- the form asks specifically about WRS and CSI, and since i didnt have these between 2008-2011 - do you think that will affect my application?

Thanks in advance!

[noajthan]

Hi guys,

...

My questions are
- do I need to send evidence even for the years I know I won't qualify as exercising treaty rights?
- the form asks specifically about WRS and CSI, and since i didnt have these between 2008-2011 - do you think that will affect my application?

Thanks in advance!

No.
No.

But you will need rock-solid documentary supporting evidence evidence as a worker (forget about student status) since 2011.

Was the work genuine and effective rather than supplementary and marginal?
Any gaps? or prolonged absence from UK?
Will the part-time (?) work stand up against HO PET/MET test?

[daveywavey]

Thanks so much for clearing that up!

Well yes, so actually I did not even check that out - these are quite recent rules aren't they?
Last time I checked out this forum was over year ago, and from what I remember I qualified back then.

So from what I understand I will have trouble qualifying for permanent residence now...
I am over PET in 2015/16 but not in the other years...
Well of course I would argue that my work is genuine and effective.
This is not about the hours that I work - it's only 15 hours per week and the pay is not great - but this is in no way an extra/causal job. I sacrifice every single weekend and worked Christmas Day for the past five years because this is genuinely my main source of support - that is how I pay rent and other living costs. All these years I have worked the same hours, for the same employer, and progressed to a supervisory role.

Does anyone have any experiences with applying for PR in a similar situation?

[daveywavey]

Also, do the rules apply retrospectively? In 2015/2016 I am definitely over the PET - but before I was not even aware that would be taken into account - would they check back the NI contributions for the years in question, even though it wasn't a requirement at that time?

[noajthan]

Thanks so much for clearing that up!

Well yes, so actually I did not even check that out - these are quite recent rules aren't they?
Last time I checked out this forum was over year ago, and from what I remember I qualified back then.

So from what I understand I will have trouble qualifying for permanent residence now...
I am over PET in 2015/16 but not in the other years...
Well of course I would argue that my work is genuine and effective.
This is not about the hours that I work - it's only 15 hours per week and the pay is not great - but this is in no way an extra/causal job. I sacrifice every single weekend and worked Christmas Day for the past five years because this is genuinely my main source of support - that is how I pay rent and other living costs. All these years I have worked the same hours, for the same employer, and progressed to a supervisory role.

Does anyone have any experiences with applying for PR in a similar situation?

The PET/MET is somewhat controversial as its way outside compliance with EU law.

It may not be end of the world, just be aware you may have a fight on your hands.
And you will need good if not unimpeachable documentary supporting evidence.

You can see what HO guidance says about assessing genuine work, here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _clean.pdf
- see pages 18/19+
(Remember this is not the clean, pure EU law).

And get up to speed on PET/MET, here:
https://www.freemovement.org.uk/using-m ... ne-worker/

[noajthan]

Also, do the rules apply retrospectively? In 2015/2016 I am definitely over the PET - but before I was not even aware that would be taken into account - would they check back the NI contributions for the years in question, even though it wasn't a requirement at that time?

Paying tax/NI will have helped.

I've a sneaking suspicion the test is applied back in time. Not sure how far back.
Somewhat unfairly it has even been reported as being applied to people who have worked abroad (eg Surinder Singh-ers). Unbelievable.

As I mentioned, this approach is not compliant with the letter (never mind the spirit) of EU law - so it may be contestable.

[noajthan]

Thinking out of the box, did you ever have an EEA national parent in UK (at same time as you) who was exercising their treaty rights?
if so, maybe they could count as your sponsor; (depends partly on your age too).

Another longshot, did you, as a student, have a RC (issued to you as a student) in/before 2011?
If so then no need to have held CSI during your carefree student years - which could just bring them back into the frame.

[daveywavey]

Paying tax/NI will have helped.

Well it's a little more complicated. For 4 out those 5 years I earned just below the threshold and personal allowance BUT because I was receiving an inherited pension from abroad, I was filling out self-assessment every year and actually paying income tax, just not from work.

Thinking out of the box, did you ever have an EEA national parent in UK (at same time as you) who was exercising their treaty rights?
if so, maybe they could count as your sponsor; (depends partly on your age too).

Sadly no

Another longshot, did you, as a student, have a RC (issued to you as a student) in/before 2011?

And no RC either I only got it last year when I started to look into PR/naturalisation rules.
But actually - by issuing me with RC on the basis of my work, they have themselves confirmed my work is genuine and effective.

And you will need good if not unimpeachable documentary supporting evidence.

What do you mean by that? I mean, I was just plannign to submit my P60s from each year, and a letter from the employer? maybe a couple of self asessements from HMRC - is that not enough? I am happy to send in 60 payslips if neccessary

[noajthan]

...

Another longshot, did you, as a student, have a RC (issued to you as a student) in/before 2011?

And no RC either I only got it last year when I started to look into PR/naturalisation rules.
But actually - by issuing me with RC on the basis of my work, they have themselves confirmed my work is genuine and effective.

And you will need good if not unimpeachable documentary supporting evidence.

What do you mean by that? I mean, I was just plannign to submit my P60s from each year, and a letter from the employer? maybe a couple of self asessements from HMRC - is that not enough? I am happy to send in 60 payslips if neccessary

A RC is not a visa and only really valid (correct) on the day it was issued. After all you could have stopped work or left the country the next week,
And it doesn't prove treaty rights being exercised continuously for 5 years - just that they might be.

You need much more evidence: of identity and residency in UK.
Plus more evidence of treaty rights (work).

HO plays hard ball when assessing these applications - why give them the Spam of 'wriggle room'.

Suggest rereading the qualified persons doc (linked above).
And take a gander at the PR guidance doc (on Gov UK website) too.

[daveywavey]

A RC is not a visa and only really valid (correct) on the day it was issued. After all you could have stopped work or left the country the next week,
And it doesn't prove treaty rights being exercised continuously for 5 years - just that they might be.

No I understand. I am just saying that it was issued on the basis of payslips I sent in and it's a proof that at that point in time I was exercising treaty rights. And I can provide the same evidence for the whole five years, same job, same pay, same hours, same uni. So I think, that gives me some hope.

Ok, I see, they suggest two documents per year, so I could plan this out:
2011: employer contract, uni letter, council tax bill
2012: P60, bank statement, another employer contract
2013: P60, uni letter, HMRC self-assement
2014: tenancy agreement, uni letter, p60
2015: p60, uni letter, bank statement
2016: P60, uni letter, letter from employer

All above should cover both residency and employment.

In addition, of course, national ID (since I will need my passport to travel) and Registration Certificate from 2015.

[daveywavey]

But actually, noajthan, you have been really helpful! - Thank you.

Let me complicate this a little bit more.
I am getting married abroad in July, and planning to come back to UK with my husband in September.
He will (hopefully) come with a family permit, but obviously we would like to apply for a Residence Card for him straight away. I am just trying to think what is a better option:
- me applying for EEA PR now (which definitely won't be dealt with by September) and him applying with EEA FM, stating that my applications has been sent
- me holding off and sending our applications together in September?

[noajthan]

But actually, noajthan, you have been really helpful! - Thank you.

Let me complicate this a little bit more.
I am getting married abroad in July, and planning to come back to UK with my husband in September.
He will (hopefully) come with a family permit, but obviously we would like to apply for a Residence Card for him straight away. I am just trying to think what is a better option:
- me applying for EEA PR now (which definitely won't be dealt with by September) and him applying with EEA FM, stating that my applications has been sent
- me holding off and sending our applications together in September?

Life is just one thing after another isn't it! But a summer wedding, how lovely.

Playing Devil's Advocate here, if you apply for confirmation of PR and hit a problem and get a refusal then it won't be so hopeful for hubby's subsequent RC application.

However, if you wait and apply for the RC in the autumn you may have a stronger case for it, (just submitting strong evidence for a recent snapshot in time).
Then see about filing your PR application shortly afterwards.

[cedricdh]

Daveywavey (OP) here - can't reset forgotten password for some reason

Thanks guys for help.
It all worked out for me - received my DCPR today!
I have earned well below MET/PET cut-off while studying, but I have argued in my cover letter that it was by no means a casual job.

(And applying for Family Permit for my spouse two days after the wedding, back in August also worked out just OK

[noajthan]

Daveywavey (OP) here - can't reset forgotten password for some reason

Thanks guys for help.
It all worked out for me - received my DCPR today!
I have earned well below MET/PET cut-off while studying, but I have argued in my cover letter that it was by no means a casual job.

(And applying for Family Permit for my spouse two days after the wedding, back in August also worked out just OK

You are on a roll!
Your case will surely help and inspire others.

If only UK wasn't leaving EU but not much anyone can do about that and glad to know everything else is working out.

Maintain the papertrail and hubby's RC should follow.