Register children born in UK - parent with PR

[erunkulu2]

I have looked through the link you sent to me regarding no 2 child to apply for british passport.

* Worker - A passport / document showing a UK Residence Card or Registration Certificate issued five years before the child’s birth and a letter
confirming that the parent(s) were not receiving benefits during that period;
• A statement from HM Revenues & Customs showing yearly totals of credited National Insurance between the relevant dates;
• A statement from HM Revenues & Customs confirming tax returns between the relevant dates;
• A letter from an employer and documents showing evidence of employment between the relevant dates e.g. P60's / payslips

Family members • Evidence from the categories above to confirm that the applicant has been exercising Treaty Rights for the required period
• Evidence of their relationship to the EEA national sponsor
• Where the family member has permanent residence in their own right, the EEA national does not have to be in the UK for them to meet the
requirement for Treaty Rights

I have received working tax and child tax credit last year from september 2015 to april before it was stopped. Do you think i can still qualify as it was stated point blank that i must not take any benefit ???? Please give me more advise on this

[noajthan]

I have looked through the link you sent to me regarding no 2 child to apply for british passport.

* Worker - A passport / document showing a UK Residence Card or Registration Certificate issued five years before the child’s birth and a letter
confirming that the parent(s) were not receiving benefits during that period;
• A statement from HM Revenues & Customs showing yearly totals of credited National Insurance between the relevant dates;
• A statement from HM Revenues & Customs confirming tax returns between the relevant dates;
• A letter from an employer and documents showing evidence of employment between the relevant dates e.g. P60's / payslips

...

I have received working tax and child tax credit last year from september 2015 to april before it was stopped. Do you think i can still qualify as it was stated point blank that i must not take any benefit ???? Please give me more advise on this

It appears you had acquired PR by September 2015.

Based on what you have said, that is even before child #1's DoB.
So child #1 is potentially British too, if you can prove you are the father.

Once someone has acquired PR there is no need to exercise treaty rights anymore; so your economic activity and whether you claimed benefits (or relied on benefits) after September 2015 does not matter.

[Richard W]

Based on what you have said, that is even before child #1's DoB.
So child #1 is potentially British too, if you can prove you are the father.

(Once again, Noajthan provides the best proposition to attach my comment to!)
This would be by an application under Section 3(1) - registration at discretion. The relevant part of the Nationality Instructions is Section 9.9.5. However, that seems to be contradicted by Section 9.9.4(c):

we are satisfied that, had the child’s parents been married we would normally have registered under s.3(1);

I think that condition must be inapplicable to Section 9.9.5 - if the parents had been married, in this case registration under Section 3(1) would be refused on the grounds that the child was British!

If you can trust the text of the instructions, being recorded as the father shortly after birth should still suffice as evidence of being the biological father.

Another other possible route is that the eldest child may acquire British citizenship through his mother's husband. What is known of his status? Failing both those routes, the other possibility is that if he is still in the UK when he reaches the age of 10, and has not spent too long outside it, he may be registered under Section 1(4) - the 'form T' route.

What is the eldest child's mother's immigration status?

[erunkulu2]

Based on what you have said, that is even before child #1's DoB.
So child #1 is potentially British too, if you can prove you are the father.

(Once again, Noajthan provides the best proposition to attach my comment to!)
This would be by an application under Section 3(1) - registration at discretion. The relevant part of the Nationality Instructions is Section 9.9.5. However, that seems to be contradicted by Section 9.9.4(c):

we are satisfied that, had the child’s parents been married we would normally have registered under s.3(1);

I think that condition must be inapplicable to Section 9.9.5 - if the parents had been married, in this case registration under Section 3(1) would be refused on the grounds that the child was British!

If you can trust the text of the instructions, being recorded as the father shortly after birth should still suffice as evidence of being the biological father.

Another other possible route is that the eldest child may acquire British citizenship through his mother's husband. What is known of his status? Failing both those routes, the other possibility is that if he is still in the UK when he reaches the age of 10, and has not spent too long outside it, he may be registered under Section 1(4) - the 'form T' route.

What is the eldest child's mother's immigration status?

The eldest child's mother don't have any status at the moment.

[secret.simon]

Given that you are disputing the presumption that the husband of the mother of the eldest child is also that child's father and as the child was born after 10th September 2015, be prepared to be asked to provide a DNA test proving that.

Proving paternity in British nationality law: rule change on effect of birth certificates.

As the first child's mother is currently without status, the application to register the first child will come under even greater scrutiny.

On a point of interest, which part of the UK (England, Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland) are you and your children based in?

[erunkulu2]

please can you explain how this PR is acquired and what do i need to look out for if i receive a reply from UKVI (SAR) as am not expert on this like you guys.

I also need to know what forms do i fill for the baby #2 when making application based on treaty rights passport application as suggested ???

Thank you.

[erunkulu2]

Given that you are disputing the presumption that the husband of the mother of the eldest child is also that child's father and as the child was born after 10th September 2015, be prepared to be asked to provide a DNA test proving that.

Proving paternity in British nationality law: rule change on effect of birth certificates.

As the first child's mother is currently without status, the application to register the first child will come under even greater scrutiny.

On a point of interest, which part of the UK (England, Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland) are you and your children based in?

I am based in England. I was thinking of doing the Paternity before putting the application in but from the look of the information provided by Noajthan, i think the child's #2 is a british and i dont need to register him as a british citizen.

My major concerns was on child's #2 because its the eldest and i want to sort that out first before doing the second child.

[vinny]

Given that you are disputing the presumption that the husband of the mother of the eldest child is also that child's father and as the child was born after 10th September 2015, be prepared to be asked to provide a DNA test proving that.

(9A)For the purposes of this Act a child’s father is—
(a)the husband, at the time of the child’s birth, of the woman who gives birth to the child, or
[F14(b)where a person is treated as the father of the child under section 28 of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 1990 or section 35 or 36 of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 2008, that person, or
(ba)where a person is treated as a parent of the child under section 42 or 43 of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 2008, that person, or
(c)where none of paragraphs (a) to (ba) applies, a person who satisfies prescribed requirements as to proof of paternity.]

If 50(9A)(a) applies, then the child's father is deemed to be the child's mother's husband at the time of the child's birth.

[Casa]

Vinny's post confirms my understanding and even with your name on the birth certificate & a positive DNA test, only the mother's husband will be considered as the eldest child's father.

Does the mother's husband/ex husband have legal status in the UK? If not, is this the urgency to register the eldest child as British through your PR?

[erunkulu2]

Vinny's post confirms my understanding and even with your name on the birth certificate & a positive DNA test, only the mother's husband will be considered as the eldest child's father.

Does the mother's husband/ex husband have legal status in the UK? If not, is this the urgency to register the eldest child as British through your PR?

* Yes the mother ex husband have legal status in the UK

* I only want to register the eldest so that she has same benefits with the other such as going on holiday and i dont want to pay high HO fee next year as it seemed the fee increases every year now.

[Casa]

Vinny's post confirms my understanding and even with your name on the birth certificate & a positive DNA test, only the mother's husband will be considered as the eldest child's father.

Does the mother's husband/ex husband have legal status in the UK? If not, is this the urgency to register the eldest child as British through your PR?

* Yes the mother ex husband have legal status in the UK

* I only want to register the eldest so that she has same benefits with the other such as going on holiday and i dont want to pay high HO fee next year as it seemed the fee increases every year now.

In which case, as the husband of the eldest child will be considered as the legal father, why doesn't he register the child or doesn't he have permanent residence?

[erunkulu2]

They are not together anymore and the mother has lost contact with the Ex for over 3 years now.

[Richard W]

In which case, as the husband of the eldest child will be considered as the legal father, why doesn't he register the child or doesn't he have permanent residence?

The OP is the eldest child's legal father. The mother's husband at the time of birth is only the father for the purposes of deriving nationality under British nationality law. (He might be the father in some ways under some other nationality laws - German law looks complicated and unresolved. German law hasn't yet been determined to be irrelevant to the broader aim of enabling the child to re-enter the UK.)

The presumption of paternity was overturned when the birth certificate was issued. Do we know when the Home Office is unconvinced by promptly issued birth certificates? Has the eldest child's birth ever been registered as anything but the birth of a child of the OP? The birth certificate is too recent (being after 9 September 2015) to be unassailable as evidence of paternity for a right to British nationality, but that says nothing concrete about what evidence the Home Office would accept for registration at discretion (Section 3(1)).

So, what is the immigration status of the eldest child's mother's ex-husband? What was it at the time of birth?

[noajthan]

please can you explain how this PR is acquired and what do i need to look out for if i receive a reply from UKVI (SAR) as am not expert on this like you guys.

I also need to know what forms do i fill for the baby #2 when making application based on treaty rights passport application as suggested ???

Thank you.

Follow the document I linked for you.
Get a passport form from PO.

You have to submit all the evidence of acquisition of PR, same as when you applied for your PR card.

Its no good submitting the PR card.
That will probably just confuse HMPO who may think you only got PR from date of issue of card (which is after child's DoB).
They would be incorrect ofcourse but they frequently make such mistakes and would deny the passport (because they used wrong dates)..

So collate all your documentary supporting evidence for PR.
Follow the guidance document I have already posted for you which is for treaty rights-related applications.
Have a go at filling the form.
See how it all shapes up.

Noone said it was going to be easy.
Good luck.

[erunkulu2]

please can you explain how this PR is acquired and what do i need to look out for if i receive a reply from UKVI (SAR) as am not expert on this like you guys.

I also need to know what forms do i fill for the baby #2 when making application based on treaty rights passport application as suggested ???

Thank you.

Follow the document I linked for you.
Get a passport form from PO.

You have to submit all the evidence of acquisition of PR, same as when you applied for your PR card.

Its no good submitting the PR card.
That will probably just confuse HMPO who may think you only got PR from date of issue of card (which is after child's DoB).
They would be incorrect ofcourse but they frequently make such mistakes and would deny the passport (because they used wrong dates)..

So collate all your documentary supporting evidence for PR.
Follow the guidance document I have already posted for you which is for treaty rights-related applications.
Have a go at filling the form.
See how it all shapes up.

Noone said it was going to be easy.
Good luck.

Thank you so much for your time and i will keep you posted on the outcome.

[erunkulu2]

Lest i forget, Can i also make application for my second child's mother as a dependent under EU law??? Any advise will be helpful. Thank you all guys

[Casa]

Lest i forget, Can i also make application for my second child's mother as a dependent under EU law??? Any advise will be helpful. Thank you all guys

Are you married to her? Does she currently have legal status?

[Richard W]

Lest i forget, Can i also make application for my second child's mother as a dependent under EU law?

No, not unless she is an EEA national. The EEA Regulations only apply to EEA nationals, their family members (direct or extended), and those whose presence is required for them to be able to enjoy their rights. British citizens' carers are also covered, but as you are settled here, EU law (according to the Home Office) wouldn't cover her.

If she be an EEA national, she may qualify as a 'self-sufficient person' on the basis of your earnings.

Regardless of whether she's an EEA national, she may qualify under British law for a spouse 'visa' as the wife of a person settled in the UK (i.e. you). She may be able to get this without leaving the UK.

[erunkulu2]

Lest i forget, Can i also make application for my second child's mother as a dependent under EU law??? Any advise will be helpful. Thank you all guys

Are you married to her? Does she currently have legal status?

Yes i am married to her and while waiting for my PR to come out she lost her status in the UK (Student).

[Casa]

In which case, as she has no legal status she won't qualify for FLR(M) as your spouse. You may be succeed with a FLR(FP) partner route application, but this ins't guaranteed. Do you have a minimum annual income of £18,600? That's assuming your child is either British by birth, or registered as British when you submit the FLR(FP) application.
Are you aware that at present your wife has no free access to NHS treatment?

[secret.simon]

Given that you are disputing the presumption that the husband of the mother of the eldest child is also that child's father and as the child was born after 10th September 2015, be prepared to be asked to provide a DNA test proving that.

(9A)For the purposes of this Act a child’s father is—
(a)the husband, at the time of the child’s birth, of the woman who gives birth to the child, or
[F14(b)where a person is treated as the father of the child under section 28 of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 1990 or section 35 or 36 of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 2008, that person, or
(ba)where a person is treated as a parent of the child under section 42 or 43 of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 2008, that person, or
(c)where none of paragraphs (a) to (ba) applies, a person who satisfies prescribed requirements as to proof of paternity.]

If 50(9A)(a) applies, then the child's father is deemed to be the child's mother's husband at the time of the child's birth.

Hi Vinny,
For personal knowledge, is paternity as defined in Section 50 an absolute definition or a rebuttable presumption?

[erunkulu2]

In which case, as she has no legal status she won't qualify for FLR(M) as your spouse. You may be succeed with a FLR(FP) partner route application, but this ins't guaranteed. Do you have a minimum annual income of £18,600? That's assuming your child is either British by birth, or registered as British when you submit the FLR(FP) application.
Are you aware that at present your wife has no free access to NHS treatment?

Yes i am aware. Thanks for the info, you guys are awesome here. Thank you all

[vinny]

For personal knowledge, is paternity as defined in Section 50 an absolute definition or a rebuttable presumption?

Registration under Section 3(1) may be a solution.

[Richard W]

For personal knowledge, is paternity as defined in Section 50 an absolute definition or a rebuttable presumption?

Registration under Section 3(1) may be a solution.

Thank you for backing me up on this. (I've already referenced the relevant part of the nationality instructions, Section 9.9.5.)

One thing that is worrying is the 'may' aspect, though I didn't see my worries mentioned in the discussion referenced by Vinny. When registering illegitimate children of British citizens born (and living) in Thailand, they have been known to refuse to register when the parents' relationship had broken up, apparently on the ground that the child's future clearly did not lie in the United Kingdom. I know of one case where the child had to wait until the father could register it under form UKF, having been refused under MN1. In the OP's case, I can conceive that they might refuse registration of the eldest child on the basis that its future lies with its mother, whom they will expect to be administratively removed from the UK. Additionally, it seems they might decline to register because registration might alter the immigration outcome, with both mother and child being allowed to stay. Can anyone comment on the likelihood of such an outcome?

[Richard W]

Hi Vinny,
For personal knowledge, is paternity as defined in Section 50 an absolute definition or a rebuttable presumption?

If Vinny's not going to answer, I'll give my untutored opinion. Conception by artificial insemination or the like ought to be rebuttable - no time limit is given between the treatment and the birth resulting in a child. However, the only way to challenge paternity resulting from marriage is to challenge the existence of the marriage. This might get legally interesting with a void marriage capable of resulting in legitimate children.

There is a published interpretation that the husband takes precedence over the other parent declared for artificial insemination. I'm not sure that that is the correct position in law. The law on that conflict may well be undecided.

The position of children born to widows is probably dependent on judicial common sense. Fully registering the birth of posthumous illegitimate children is already complicated.