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Academic debate on Union citizens and burden on host state

Questions and discussions about claiming benefits while living and working in the UK

Moderators: Casa, John, ChetanOjha, archigabe, CR001, push, JAJ, ca.funke, Amber, zimba, vinny, Obie, EUsmileWEallsmile, batleykhan, meself2, geriatrix

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Petaltop
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Academic debate on Union citizens and burden on host state

Post by Petaltop » Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:11 pm

asp wrote:It is not a good enough reason to succeed.

I can understand you doing only a few hours with the childcare burden, but why is your husband only doing 16hrs? If he was doing a full week's work and earning enough to support the family you could claim to be exercising Treaty Rights as a self sufficient person (living on his income).

As it stands you aren't a real worker and his few hours can't help either of you. It looks like a hobby company rather than real work.
It's a process known as "maximising benefits". Parents become self employed, don't have to make much money but both parents must 'work' a set number of hours to make 24 hours, to get the maximum benefits for the least work.

That practice is being stopped under the Tax Credit replacement welfare payment called Universal Credit, but as that is still being rolled out, the UK brought in the MET to catch out the EU citizens who were doing this.

Now the UK use the MET for other things too, not just to see who can have UK benefits.

victoria_2010
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Re: PR refused, self employed, low income, DLA

Post by victoria_2010 » Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:18 pm

Could deliberately maximizing benefits cause a refusal of PR on the basis of ... public policy?

Am I correct in thinking that the HO considers a person ito be genuinely self-employed as long as their economic activity is not classed as 'marginal'. MET is not a very accurate measure. Consider the following circumstances:

1. A self-employed Polish builder has a decent turnover, but the customer of a major job goes bankrupt and doesn't pay. The bad debt is written off resulting in a significantly decreased net profit. The applicant is then below the MET!

2. A Dutch cleaner or decorator has been genuinely self employed for 4 years. He then hurts his back, knee, hip, etc and chooses to continue working instead of claiming any benefits based on his diminished capacity to work. However, it now takes him considerably longer to get the same jobs done. Thus, if he worked say 30 hours a week for a net profit of £240, he has had to drop half of the jobs and his income has dropped to £120 weekly. But he still works the 30 hours due to his disability/illness.

In the above scenario he's below the MET and his hourly rate is a mere £4 an hour. Is he not genuinely self-employed? Should he feel sorry for himself, quit working or maybe retrain for an office job?

Are these EEA national not exercising treaty rights?

britkiwi
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Re: PR refused, self employed, low income, DLA

Post by britkiwi » Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:52 pm

So for those who aren't claiming benefits and geniunely are working say part time hours it would seem that they get MET/PET tested too.

That's hardly fair when there are people who do want to work even if it is only part time or can only work part time due to child care arrangements.

I'm one of those people- I've been offered a job where the contracted hours ar 15 per week but there is scope to work up to 36.5 hours per week.

I don't know whether to submitt my application as a jobseeker or send in my job offer letter and explain that I am contracted to work 15 hrs per week but have the scope to do 36.5 hrs per week?

Noetic
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Re: PR refused, self employed, low income, DLA

Post by Noetic » Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:30 pm

Britwiki EEA free movement rules are quite clear that people have to be exercising treaty rights among other things as workers or self sufficient with health insurance so as not to be a drain on the host nation. It isn't a free ticket to live and claim benefits wherever people please & OP should legitimise her stay in the UK by getting CSI post haste as neither her nor her partner are living here legally per EU law.

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Re: PR refused, self employed, low income, DLA

Post by noajthan » Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:45 pm

britkiwi wrote:So for those who aren't claiming benefits and geniunely are working say part time hours it would seem that they get MET/PET tested too.

That's hardly fair when there are people who do want to work even if it is only part time or can only work part time due to child care arrangements.

I'm one of those people- I've been offered a job where the contracted hours ar 15 per week but there is scope to work up to 36.5 hours per week.

I don't know whether to submitt my application as a jobseeker or send in my job offer letter and explain that I am contracted to work 15 hrs per week but have the scope to do 36.5 hrs per week?
All that EU law says about such matters, (paraphrasing here), is that a citizens should not pose an undue burden on the social assistance system of the host state.
However, UK use of UK ET/MET tests to check out hardworking Union citizens on EU migration trajectory is not compliant with EU law.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

Petaltop
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Re: PR refused, self employed, low income, DLA

Post by Petaltop » Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:26 pm

noajthan wrote:
All that EU law says about such matters, (paraphrasing here), is that a citizens should not pose an undue burden on the social assistance system of the host state.
However, UK use of UK ET/MET tests to check out hardworking Union citizens on EU migration trajectory is not compliant with EU law.
It they don't meet the MET, then they aren't working hard. The MET is based on eanring enough to pay National Insurance to the UK. To pay NI is something like 21 hours a week at the national hourly minimum wage. And they are certainly aren't working hard enough to pay any income tax to the UK. But as they still expect the UK taxpayers to pay for their healthcare, to use the schools for free for their children, drive on the roads, use services, claim benefits to keep their children and to house them etc, when they give nothing to the UK, isn''t that being an "undue burden" to another EEA country?

We have seen the UK tackle the problem of those EEA citizens who were single parents in the UK and don't work; they had all their benefits removed as they aren't a qualified person. Then they moved to tackle the problem of EU nationals who claim full benefits (jsa, housing and benefits for their children) while they claim they have been a jobseeker for years in the UK; they too have lost all their UK benefits as they aren't a qualifed person. It stand to reason they were going to tackle the problem of those who claim benefits as a "worker" or "self employed" when they do very little to pay for their own families and don't pay into the UK.

When Blair announced that his new benefits called Tax Credits and Pension Credits, were vote winners, he didn't realise the massive rise in claimants would cause the UK's welfare bill to be more the UK takes in income tax! Realising too late their mistake, Labour started on the Welfare reforms and brought in medicals for those that want sick benefits and started on the one income based welfare payment (now called Universal Credit) to reduce/stop the benefits given to those parents who don't want to work much much and who use their children in what is known as "benefit cash cows".

All the welfare changes coming in is nothing that we didn't know is going to happen. Even the UK governmnet announced in their budget, that they were reducing benefits for children to below that of Germany, France and Sweden. The UK is also moving to right the wrong of pensioners who didn't contribute to the UK during their working life, getting more that those who did. When Labour got voted out, these welfare reforms just carried on and were easily voted in by by parliament.


There was a long running thread on the benefits board of a well know site, where they first talked about the new Universal Credit and how parents who didn't work much, would get less benefits/have to work for their welfare payment, which was all part the new Universal Credit conditions.The new MET test then appeared on that thread becasue EEA citizens, who thought they would have a few years yet before the UK reduced their benefits under UNiversal credit, found the UK now had a test to see if they were a EEA worker of self employed person, for benefit purposes.

EEA Students and their familes and Self Sufficients and their families, have also had changes to stop them being too much of a burden to the UK. Why should those EEA citizens who claim they are working (which then gives them access to UK benefits) yet do very little to keep their own children, be exempt from the changes to what a quaified person is?

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Re: PR refused, self employed, low income, DLA

Post by victoria_2010 » Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:36 pm

I would argue that ESA, claiming income-based JSA and similar should be considered burden on the public purse of the host state. In-work benefits such as the working tax credits are simply top-ups for low paid workers.

In essence it's the state subsidizing businesses, which don't pay a living wage. It would have been a lot fairer if the minimum wage was at least £10 per hour and the working tax credits cancelled altogether. But do you think businesses would be happy?

I'm not too sure how to view the HB subsidy. Do you all think it's an undue strain on the host state's social security system? Considering that the majority of the HB payments end up in as rental income for private landlords.. It's the state paying for poor people (regardless where they come from) to live for free (or cheaply) and at the same time lining the pockets of wealthier landlords. Is this a win-win situation or a flawed approach of a nanny state which breeds laziness and dependency.

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Re: PR refused, self employed, low income, DLA

Post by Petaltop » Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:57 pm

victoria_2010 wrote: In-work benefits such as the working tax credits are simply top-ups for low paid workers.
No. Blair admitted he was bringing them in as a "vote winner".

Tax Credits for those parents who could work, but don't work and for those that don't work enough hours.Before Tax Credits were invented in 2002, there were noextra benefits for these people if they didn't work, just income Support (now about £72 a week) and not extra for their children (tax credits about £65 per week per child). People worked to suppour their children and they took second job if they needed more money.

Everything changes under Univesal Credit as parents will be told how much to earn each week and at least one of the parents will have to earn at least 35 hours a week at natioanl minimum wage.
Some parents will have their UC claim based on what they should earn even if they don't.
Others will work for the welfare payments for their children.
There will be a two child limit.
No more 'two bites of the cherry' by claiming DLA/PIP and then extra money for your disablity as Tax Credits does.
No more using a creative accountant to bring your taxes income down to claim beefits as Tax credits will be gone.
No more running a hobby business and expecting the welfare state to keep you, while avoinding the job centre.
There will be a 2 child limit.
For those without children, they will have to work more hours to keep themselves as not many will get UC.

For those coming off benefits, there will be no more cliff edge drop in benfits as they will be allowed to have these for a little bit longer.
Last edited by Petaltop on Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

noajthan
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Re: Academic debate on Union citizens and burden on host sta

Post by noajthan » Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:08 pm

Moved out from a member's original post as this debate had little or nothing to do with helping that OP.

Will see how this rumbles on and keep under review whether this needs locking down.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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Re: PR refused, self employed, low income, DLA

Post by Petaltop » Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:20 pm

noajthan wrote:The academic debate has already been moved out here:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... 15050.html
What about the non-EU citizens, those who get ILR and then claim benefits? The benefits changes under the welfare reforms of Universal Credit, that are coming in from next year for exisiting claimants, still apply to them and those who are British citizens.
Last edited by Petaltop on Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PR refused, self employed, low income, DLA

Post by Casa » Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:24 pm

Once someone has been granted ILR, they are no longer under Immigration control and have the same rights to benefits as British citizens.

Note; We're still off-topic.
(Casa, not CR001)
Please don't send me PMs asking for immigration advice on posts that are on the open forum. If I haven't responded there, it's because I don't have the answer. I'm a moderator, not a legal professional.

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Re: PR refused, self employed, low income, DLA

Post by Petaltop » Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:28 pm

Casa wrote:Once someone has been granted ILR, they are no longer under Immigration control and have the same rights to benefits as British citizens.

Note; We're still off-topic.

These are benfits reform for British citizens too. Can it all go on the benefits board?

It's the MET for the EEA citizens (qualified person) and then the MIT for a Universal Credit claim (for everyone who can have UK income based benefits).

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Re: Academic debate on Union citizens and burden on host sta

Post by noajthan » Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:31 pm

British citizens will not be on EU migration trajectory.

Union citizens will not (usually) be on ILR.

You cannot hope to discuss and solve the problems of the whole world and everything in one topic!
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

Petaltop
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Re: Academic debate on Union citizens and burden on host sta

Post by Petaltop » Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:49 pm

noajthan wrote:British citizens will not be on EU migration trajectory.

Union citizens will not (usually) be on ILR.

You cannot hope to discuss and solve the problems of the whole world and everything in one topic!
Thanks for moving it to benefits.

Perhaps this should be called, UK Wefare Reforms or Universal Credit? These changes (not just UC) will affect everyone who is allowed to claim/or who is already claiming, UK income based welfare payments. I repeat this lots of times on this board and it would be nice to have it all in one thread.

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Re: Academic debate on Union citizens and burden on host sta

Post by Casa » Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:59 pm

I have a grave concern that we will stray from immigration matters and immigration is above all, the purpose of this forum.

Moderators have already battled with the balance between immigration and tax issues, and I don't believe we would want to entertain advising for all on the welfare reforms.
(Casa, not CR001)
Please don't send me PMs asking for immigration advice on posts that are on the open forum. If I haven't responded there, it's because I don't have the answer. I'm a moderator, not a legal professional.

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Re: Academic debate on Union citizens and burden on host sta

Post by noajthan » Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:14 pm

+ 1 Casa.
Indeed.
noajthan wrote:Moved out from a member's original post as this debate had little or nothing to do with helping that OP.

Will see how this rumbles on and keep under review whether this needs locking down.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

Petaltop
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Re: Academic debate on Union citizens and burden on host sta

Post by Petaltop » Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:22 am

Casa wrote:I have a grave concern that we will stray from immigration matters and immigration is above all, the purpose of this forum.
I must admit that I was surprised to see a 'Claiming Benefits' board on an immigration site, that doesn't usually happen on immigration sites.
Casa wrote:Moderators have already battled with the balance between immigration and tax issues, and I don't believe we would want to entertain advising for all on the welfare reforms.
But you don't have a board dedicated to Tax Issues.

I'm not criticising, but just pointed out this difference.

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Re: Academic debate on Union citizens and burden on host sta

Post by noajthan » Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:28 am

Petaltop wrote:
Casa wrote:I have a grave concern that we will stray from immigration matters and immigration is above all, the purpose of this forum.
I must admit that I was surprised to see a 'Claiming Benefits' board on an immigration site, that doesn't usually happen on immigration sites.
Casa wrote:Moderators have already battled with the balance between immigration and tax issues, and I don't believe we would want to entertain advising for all on the welfare reforms.
But you don't have a board dedicated to Tax Issues.

I'm not criticising, but just pointed out this difference.
A question more relevant for 'Comments about discussion board'.

There is nothing written in immigration regulations about 'consistency'.
No doubt there are historical reasons for this, now lost in the mists of time, and probably known only to ghosts of past moderators.

And no, there are no known plans to entertain a subforum for tax issues.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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