HO refused my tier 1 app without any valid reason

[ali31]

Zimba here is my case info.

My tier 1 ext is refused on 12th August for no valid reason. I am on £50K route.

Refusal reasons:

1. Did not invest £50K in my business
2. Did not create two full time equivalent jobs

My initial application was bit tricky. I was granted visa on the basis of £34K already spent on my business. In my extension I only had to show £16K investment. HO approved my initial T1 visa application without interview/questions asked.

In my extension application I sent following documents:

1. Director loan certificate (£15K) and prove of bank transfer.
2. Accountant letter. It covered I created two full equivalent time jobs and invested more than £50K in my business.
3. P45, P11, RTI, Wage slips and employees passports that showed I have created 3204 hours job
4. Unaudited accounts from 2012 to 2016
6. Company certificate
7. Bank statement

Due to time constraints I can't type exact text refusal reasons but I will give you some highlights.

Refusal reason 1.

I have not invested £50K in my business.

You have already demonstrated that you have invested £34K into your business. Paragraph 46 SD (a) (iii) of the immigration law rules states that you must provide the appropriate evidence you have invested the funds into your business by way of a director loan.

As a evidence of your investment you have supplied following documents:

a. A cover letter providing a break down of your investment
b. Letter from accountant
c. Director loan agreement from XXX dated XXX confirming £15K directors loan.
d. bank statement

The evidence you have supplied shows that you invested in the UK has a value of less than £50K which is unacceptable.

This is because the accounts you have produced do not show the £15K directors loan made in your name.

You can see that my above evidences I provided all documents and they confirmed it but still they didn't give me the points.

Second refusal reason Creation of job

I hired 12 employees (I didn't want to!) but 5 employees left for personal reasons.

Like above HO acknowledged all employee names, passports, wage slips, RTI, etc. They calculated 2700 hours instead of 3204. Does not explain any reason how they calculated these hours.

I made an AR and waiting for the decision.

[babaty2k02]

Zimba here is my case info.

My tier 1 ext is refused on 12th August for no valid reason. I am on £50K route.

Refusal reasons:

1. Did not invest £50K in my business
2. Did not create two full time equivalent jobs

My initial application was bit tricky. I was granted visa on the basis of £34K already spent on my business. In my extension I only had to show £16K investment. HO approved my initial T1 visa application without interview/questions asked.

In my extension application I sent following documents:

1. Director loan certificate (£15K) and prove of bank transfer.
2. Accountant letter. It covered I created two full equivalent time jobs and invested more than £50K in my business.
3. P45, P11, RTI, Wage slips and employees passports that showed I have created 3204 hours job
4. Unaudited accounts from 2012 to 2016
6. Company certificate
7. Bank statement

Due to time constraints I can't type exact text refusal reasons but I will give you some highlights.

Refusal reason 1.

I have not invested £50K in my business.

You have already demonstrated that you have invested £34K into your business. Paragraph 46 SD (a) (iii) of the immigration law rules states that you must provide the appropriate evidence you have invested the funds into your business by way of a director loan.

As a evidence of your investment you have supplied following documents:

a. A cover letter providing a break down of your investment
b. Letter from accountant
c. Director loan agreement from XXX dated XXX confirming £15K directors loan.
d. bank statement

The evidence you have supplied shows that you invested in the UK has a value of less than £50K which is unacceptable.

This is because the accounts you have produced do not show the £15K directors loan made in your name.

You can see that my above evidences I provided all documents and they confirmed it but still they didn't give me the points.

Second refusal reason Creation of job

I hired 12 employees (I didn't want to!) but 5 employees left for personal reasons.

Like above HO acknowledged all employee names, passports, wage slips, RTI, etc. They calculated 2700 hours instead of 3204. Does not explain any reason how they calculated these hours.

I made an AR and waiting for the decision.

Thank you for sharing your immigration status.
One thing I saw was the Directors Loan Agreement of 15K. I thought you could have provided a DLA with at least 50k on it, though you had shown in your initial grant that you'd invested 34k, but the requirement for renewing is to provide a loan agreement with at least 50k. Also, the balance to make up 50k from the already invested 34k is 16k, not 15k, so wondering about the statement of the case worker saying you've shown you've invested less than 50k (from my calculation, 34k + 15K = 49k).

The Case Worker specifically said - "This is because the accounts you have produced do not show the £15K directors loan made in your name".
Did your account show all the invested funds?

[Mrchaany]

I think Ali31 have missed something at director loan agreement,
Have you ever provided director loan agreement in your initial
Tier 1 entrepreneur if not why your have not provided atleast 50k in your current application.
Under appendix A requirement is different, your need to satisfy ukvi by providing business bank statement all loan transactions along with annual accounts and director loan.
I agreed that your shown some investement at your initial
Application but I think they want to confirm now by the above mentioned document,
Now zimba88 can put some lights when he free.

Regards
Ik

[nasiaziz]

Hi Ali,
Could you please giv us a break down of the number of hours every employee did each week.
just wondering if they are ignoring any hours above 30/week.
or any part time employees.
Regards

[zimba]

This is because the accounts you have produced do not show the £15K directors loan made in your name.

Based on the above, the caseworker obviously refused your investment because your accounts did not show the full investment under your name. does not seem to be related to DL agreements. What exactly did you have in your accounts ??

Please also share how you calculated the total working hours for your 12 employees.

[ali31]

This is because the accounts you have produced do not show the £15K directors loan made in your name.

Based on the above, the caseworker obviously refused your investment because your accounts did not show the full investment under your name. does not seem to be related to DL agreements. What exactly did you have in your accounts ??

Please also share how you calculated the total working hours for your 12 employees.

Zimba, how are you so obvious? My accounts have sales, director loan amount, wages and expenses.

My accountant also shown breakdown of hours by employees which is 3204.

@babaty2k02 I understand the requirement is to show £50K DLA but in my case I have already shown £34K and it's approved by HO in my initial application. My accountant has shown all investment and detailed breakdown and I also included all evidence.

[babaty2k02]

@babaty2k02 I understand the requirement is to show £50K DLA but in my case I have already shown £34K and it's approved by HO in my initial application. My accountant has shown all investment and detailed breakdown and I also included all evidence.

...did you show DLA in your initial application? No
Part of the requirement is to have a DLA with at least £50K. This is a major document.

[seasky]

1. 5/12 employees leaving for "personal" reasons? You obviously are not a very good entrepreneur. Part of your job is to attract and retain the right people. Businesses fail or succeed exactly on the talent they hire (or mis-hire). Even when you consider 5 left so you rotated 7 employees that 'didn't leave' over two jobs (over 3 years?)

2. I hope you made a typo but you do realise 34+15<50?

3. i tend to think as mentioned above that you may have calculated over 30hrs per week and any hours over 30 are disregarded. With 12 employees its hard for HO to calculate...

You are not exactly a 'star' t1-e (you didn't exactly bring in any jobs stability, let me guess you paid near min wage?) so don't expect any discretion

[ali31]

1. 5/12 employees leaving for "personal" reasons? You obviously are not a very good entrepreneur. Part of your job is to attract and retain the right people. Businesses fail or succeed exactly on the talent they hire (or mis-hire). Even when you consider 5 left so you rotated 7 employees that 'didn't leave' over two jobs (over 3 years?)

2. I hope you made a typo but you do realise 34+15<50?

3. i tend to think as mentioned above that you may have calculated over 30hrs per week and any hours over 30 are disregarded. With 12 employees its hard for HO to calculate...

You are not exactly a 'star' t1-e (you didn't exactly bring in any jobs stability, let me guess you paid near min wage?) so don't expect any discretion

Seasky, I have just checked wage slip and I found that in two months my employees did total 269 excess hours. Are you saying that HO will disregard those hours because each employee can only work 120 hours a month? Even if I deduct 3204-269 it becomes 2935 hours not 2700 hours.

My employees were sad when they left job, I don't have to explain this to HO because I completed requirement (which now I think I don't). I have still two employees working for me.

From HO perspective a true entrepreneur is the one who makes tons of amount of money from business and create several jobs (I can be wrong) but in my opinion not everyone can achieve this without making mistakes. I am working hard and spend days and night in my business. I am finally seeing ROI. It will be pity if HO refuse my AR. I have given everything to this country. My overall expenditures in 4 years are £180K (Obviously, it includes income generated from business).

Regarding your second point, I haven't made typo. I have shown £49K and £1K was already deposit in my business bank account in 2013. Unfortunately I closed that bank in 2014 and I have no proof of that deposit. I explained that bit in cover letter and my accountant also provided evidence for that.

In my given situation what do you think I should do if AR turned against me?

[ali31]

I want to add more. None of my employee has worked more than 120 hours a month.

[babaty2k02]

I want to add more. None of my employee has worked more than 120 hours a month.

Hmmm, I'm just thinkig the HO might be right in the calculation of the number of hours. You need to try and look into your payslips per employee and individually count them month by month to get the total FULL TIME HOURS each employee did. Note that if an employee did 40 hours per week, which equates to 160 hrs in a month, this is calculated as 1 full time month (same as someone with employee with 30hrs per with with 120 hours a month).

[ali31]

I want to add more. None of my employee has worked more than 120 hours a month.

Hmmm, I'm just thinkig the HO might be right in the calculation of the number of hours. You need to try and look into your payslips per employee and individually count them month by month to get the total FULL TIME HOURS each employee did. Note that if an employee did 40 hours per week, which equates to 160 hrs in a month, this is calculated as 1 full time month (same as someone with employee with 30hrs per with with 120 hours a month).

Thanks, I will definitely do that. But what if 5 employees did 400 hours a month? Assuming each employee did 80 hours a month. Will they only count 2 full time equivalent months?

[babaty2k02]

I want to add more. None of my employee has worked more than 120 hours a month.

Hmmm, I'm just thinkig the HO might be right in the calculation of the number of hours. You need to try and look into your payslips per employee and individually count them month by month to get the total FULL TIME HOURS each employee did. Note that if an employee did 40 hours per week, which equates to 160 hrs in a month, this is calculated as 1 full time month (same as someone with employee with 30hrs per with with 120 hours a month).

Thanks, I will definitely do that. But what if 5 employees did 400 hours a month? Assuming each employee did 80 hours a month. Will they only count 2 full time equivalent months?

Yea, I think so. It will be benchmarked

[zimba]

I have shown £49K and £1K was already deposit in my business bank account in 2013. Unfortunately I closed that bank in 2014 and I have no proof of that deposit. I explained that bit in cover letter and my accountant also provided evidence for that.

What evidence did you show ?? An accountant letter is not an acceptable evidence. You need to provide the evidence they ask you to provide based on the rules. Alternative evidence is not acceptable.
You need to show that your transferred min 50K to your business, supporting it with bank statements as evidence.

I have just checked wage slip and I found that in two months my employees did total 269 excess hours. Are you saying that HO will disregard those hours because each employee can only work 120 hours a month? Even if I deduct 3204-269 it becomes 2935 hours not 2700 hours.

1. HO will calculate the hours worked on a weekly basis not monthly, so you need 52 weeks of 30 hours work for each position
2. The hours worked are the total hours in a position/job (you get that by adding hours each employee worked in that position/job)
3. Each position needs to have 30 hours a week to be accepted as full time, extra hours worked are ignored !!!

[ali31]

I have shown £49K and £1K was already deposit in my business bank account in 2013. Unfortunately I closed that bank in 2014 and I have no proof of that deposit. I explained that bit in cover letter and my accountant also provided evidence for that.

What evidence did you show ?? An accountant letter is not an acceptable evidence. You need to provide the evidence they ask you to provide based on the rules. Alternative evidence is not acceptable.
You need to show that your transferred min 50K to your business, supporting it with bank statements as evidence.

I have just checked wage slip and I found that in two months my employees did total 269 excess hours. Are you saying that HO will disregard those hours because each employee can only work 120 hours a month? Even if I deduct 3204-269 it becomes 2935 hours not 2700 hours.

1. HO will calculate the hours worked on a weekly basis not monthly, so you need 52 weeks of 30 hours work for each position
2. The hours worked are the total hours in a position/job (you get that by adding hours each employee worked in that position/job)
3. Each position needs to have 30 hours a week to be accepted as full time, extra hours worked are ignored !!!

Thanks Zimba, I have provided £16K evidence. It's backed up by bank statement, director loan and accountant letter.

Regarding employees hours can you please confirm whether HO will count follow table as a two months full time equivalent job or more than that?

Month 1
Employee A: 60 hours
Employee B: 53 hours
Employee C: 38 hours
Employee D: 45 hours
Employee E: 81 hours

Month 2
Employee A: 120
Employee B: 103
Employee C: 21
Employee D: 99
Employee E: 120

In worst case if HO rejects my application on the basis of employees hours can I make a fresh application and show missing hours in it?

[noajthan]

It would be prudent to get up to speed on the rules and requirements for such a visa before embarking on the activity rather than playing catch up on a just in time-basis.

[ali31]

It would be prudent to get up to speed on the rules and requirements for such a visa before embarking on the activity rather than playing catch up on a just in time-basis.

Well said! I must say I am screwed up this time.

[ali31]

I have applied for admin review on 26th August. HO mentioned that my hours are 2746 and I am short 374 hours. My question is:

1. If my admin review is refused can I apply for a fresh application?
2. If NOT can I complete remaining 374 hours and make a fresh application before receive decision from HO?

Please reply urgent.

[zimba]

Yes you can but you will be an overstayer.

[ali31]

Yes you can but you will be an overstayer.

Zimba, if I add missing hours in fresh application will HO consider this?

[n8net]

as far I am concerned, if the missing hrs are mistake on HO's side, for ex, u submitted docs for 3120 and HO did overlook this, then AR will help. If not, it will not.

this has always been a grey area for me. but, since u made a "in-time" application, you have section 3c until AR decision arrrives, so technically u can make a fresh application which will be considered "out-of time" and will not have AR.

@zimba correct me if I am wrong.

[zimba]

Zimba, if I add missing hours in fresh application will HO consider this?

A fresh application is considered on its own. They will consider it if you can prove them with evidence obviously.

[ali31]

Hello all

I received refusal letter on 12th August. I applied for AR on 24th August. HO said that I have not provided bank statement that provide evidence of director loan and I also had some employees hours issue. I consulted with another solicitor and he suggested me to make a fresh application because in AR they do not accept new evidence. I made a fresh application on 12th Sept. HO deducted my application fees on 15th Sept. Today I received AR refusal letter dated 20th Sept. In my fresh application I have written that I want to withdraw my AR but looks like they didn't read.

I rang HO they said my fresh application case is open. Can anyone suggest me what to do now? I was hoping that they will withdraw AR.

[babaty2k02]

Could you kindly share your timelines, and the initial refusal reasons. Thank you

[noajthan]

Hello all

... HO said that I have not provided bank statement that provide evidence of director loan and I also had some employees hours issue.

...