Farage not all useless, helped Austrian make up their mind

[Obie]

British Far Right Leader Nigel Farage, has in a paradoxical way, assisted Austrians to see what they don't aspire their country to become.

Farage went on fox new, boasting about how Austrians will be voting their far right leader, and how this will lead to Austria leaving the EU.

The people of Austria saw Farage, they saw Hofer, and they did not like what they saw. Those 2 bigoted individuals finally helped Austrian make up their mind.

The voice of reasoning, tolerance and decency has finally strike back. First Richmond Park, then Austrian.

Europe finally stand up for it values. Europe says no to Farage, no to Hofer, no to Trump, no to preachers of hate, no to the vilification of Muslim, and immigrant.

Bravo to Europe.

[secret.simon]

Again, nothing to crow about.

It is worth remembering that Norbert Hofer, the far-right candidate got 47% of the vote. That is not dissimilar to the share of the Remain vote in the referendum. Remainers shout out (quite rightly) that they are the 48% and that their opinion must be heard. But then, logically, the same courtesy needs to be extended to those who voted for a far-right candidate. They too are the 47% and their opinions should be heard.

Alternatively, we can celebrate the victory of a pro-European moderate and argue that since he has got a clear majority, the people have spoken and the matter is closed. But then that would also involve accepting the results of the Brexit referendum on the same grounds.

To support the moderate pro-EU candidate in Austria while screaming about the 48% in the UK suggests intellectual inconsistency and noticeable cognitive dissonance.

[Petaltop]

I'll have what Obie is on

And now on to the Italians NO vote. A massive kick in the teeth for the EU from one of the EU's orignal 6 countries.

Can the eurozone afford to let the Italian banks fail? They hold a large amount of the debt from Portugal, Spain and Greece and the banks in Germnay and France are heavily exposed if the Italian banks fail. But do the eurozone countries have the money to save the Italian banks?

[Obie]

Again, nothing to crow about.

It is worth remembering that Norbert Hofer, the far-right candidate got 47% of the vote. That is not dissimilar to the share of the Remain vote in the referendum. Remainers shout out (quite rightly) that they are the 48% and that their opinion must be heard. But then, logically, the same courtesy needs to be extended to those who voted for a far-right candidate. They too are the 47% and their opinions should be heard.

It makes me sick to my stomach to read that. To compare the 48.3% who voted for the UK to stay in the EU, to protect their jobs, their right to move , work and study whereever they wish in the EU, to do their business where ever they wish, and to choose to retire wherever they wish, with the 46.6 percent in Austria, who voted to discriminate muslim in Austria, to ban refugee and immigrant who are fleeing dangerous conflict.

To compare those 2 different categories of people, shows me clearly, that you appear to have lost your moral compass.

How exactly are you expecting the view of Hoffer's people to be given effect to? ban islam in Austria, mass expulsion of refugees and immigrant, exit the European Union? please assist me.


I am really confused indeed, and quite frankly troubled by the attempt to link these 2 categories of people.

[rooibos]

I disagree with the premise of this thread. I speak decent German and I've been following Austrian politics for a few years.

Although the Freedom Party have a reputation for being fascists , they are old school fascist, that is they are pragmatic enough to
have accepted the rules of democracy and tolerance (to a certain degree).

They are not remotely as dangerous as the likes of Farage, Wilders, le Pen or Salvini. The latter are alt-Right garbage and way more racist and dangerous than Hofer. Even if he had won he wouldn't have left the EU anyway. The Austrian eventually will
do what the Germans do, and as long as it is convenient for them to stay in the union, they will.

[Obie]

I accept that he was gracious in defeat and conceded early. However his view are rabid, even though i accept he may not be as dangerous as Farage and Trump, Le pen and Wilders, they all speak similar language and use similar strategy to incite discord and vilify segment of their population.

I do accept that Farage is a very unpleasant and vindictive person, but the freedom party are not to far from him.

[Petaltop]

The Austrian eventually will
do what the Germans do, and as long as it is convenient for them to stay in the union, they will.

Yes, that was what was expected, to do what Germany wants.

Those Austrians wanting to take back control of their own country from the EU, was more or less the same as the Leave vote in the UK. What was the shock was that 48% of Austrians voted for that as they usually do keep to what Germany wants.

In hindsight, perhaps we shouldn't be too surprised because we are already seeing France move away from the German vision of the EU.

Italy - they thought it would be close, but that was a massive swing away from what the Eurozone countries hoped for and needed. French and German banks now heavily exposed if the Italian banks fail.

Also relative is how will the Euro survive if Italy elect an anti euro government and the 3rd largest economy in the eurozone, leaves the euro.

[secret.simon]

Rooibos, on the point of Austria doing what Germany wants, I would like your thoughts on the article linked to below.

Germany + Nazi Denial = Austria. Europe’s German-speaking countries have everything in common — except honesty about the Third Reich.

[secret.simon]

Obie, at the risk of taking this thread off-topic, relying solely on moral compasses without any logical or intellectual analysis is the prerogative of fanatics.

The major problem with moral compasses is that they do not all point in the same direction. And when they give contrary directions, who is to decide and on what basis whose moral compass is better or superior?

When I am analysing information or giving advice, I intentionally set aside my moral compass and advise based on the facts and logical conclusions. My moral compass may also advise, but it is only one of many factors. As I said above, on what basis can I claim my moral compass is better than yours?

I am not immoral, but can be amoral and dispassionate when required. Incidentally, I suggest that the latter quality is valuable in a moderator and recommend it to you.

[Obie]

SecretSimon sometimes you need to think long and hard about the things you say.

You have drawn an equivalence between the 48% remain voters in the UK and the 46 in Austria.

I asked you to explain how one could accommodate them, and you appear to get upset.

There is no intellectual or moral inconsistencies. The 2 categories you mentioned are very different.

I believe people here , may be forgiven for thinking you are not an immigrant to the UK, when they read the troubling things your espouse.

[Petaltop]

SecretSimon sometimes you need to think long and hard about the things you say.

secret.simon is one of the very few posters on here who obviously always thinks long and hard before he posts.

Whereas as you and I dear obie, are obvioulsy in the other group - the ones that sometimes don't.

Speaking from our hearts is not a bad thing, but it isn't based on facts. For example, your view on this thread of why some Brits voted to remain is not what the Brits I know said, they said they voted for 'remain and reform'.

I believe people here may be forgiven for thinking you are not an I migrant to the UK, when the read the troubling things your espouse.

It isn't "us" and "them". We are guests in their country and should respect the views of our hosts. Guests demanding to be given things, is never goiing to be acceptable to the hosts or to the decent hardworking immigrants.