Democratic Outrage, May reject Scotland Referendum Proposal

[Obie]

The British Prime Minister has rejected the Scottish Government's Right to a Second Referendum.

This is a democratic outrage.

One can only imagine if Brussels had rejected the UK's right to referendum request.

It just contrast the 2 unions, and their world of difference.

Does Scotland not have the right to determine its brexit future.

[ouflak1]

Scotland does not have the right to determine its brexit future. Whether they should or not is the question a second referendum would answer. I don't think May is going to back down on this point at all until Brexit is done, if for no other reason than that she doesn't want the extra headache.

Personally I don't feel this is fair to Scotland, as their chances of getting to the EU on their own are slim-to-none. But I'm not really sure there is any other realistic way this is all going to play out.

One possibility is that there is a chance for UK citizens, who were formally EU citizens, to acquire (or maintain) their EU citizenship. Also, I think there might have to be some special allowance for Scotland to encourage EU migration to Scotland that the rest of the UK doesn't have to pay for. If one or both of the aspects were part of the Brexit agreement, I think Scotland maybe stays (less unhappily) in the UK without anymore grumbling about referendums and EU membership.

[rooibos]

Ms May had no other choice than to reject a second referendum, while Ms Sturgeon had no other choice than to call for a new referendum, because all the promises made by liar Westminster politicians before indyref1 have been broken.

There's no amicable solution to this confrontation. Unless there is a dramatica and humiliating u turn fro the government, this will be the end of the Union as we know it. It might well be that, 5 years down the line, there will be only England and Wales in the UK. England will turn into a one party political system and slowly sliding into irrelevance. I'm not sure if I still want to fight for the right to remain in this country. If I find a decent job in the continent, I might well not come back.

[secret.simon]

As Obie said, the Scottish First Minister represents the views of her people. By that logic, the UK Prime Minister has represented the views of the whole country.

Both of them are indulging in political posturing at the moment. It is only when the Scottish Parliament puts down a request to the Westminster Parliament for a Section 30 order (that gives the Scottish Parliament the legal authority to have a referendum) that the rubber meets the road. It is then up to the Westminster Parliament to take a national view, taking into account the views and impact on all sides of the UK, not just of the 8% and give an answer.

The 8% are represented quite ably by a vociferous and vocal group of MPs, so it is unlikely that their views will not be heard. But the Westminster Parliament also has to take into account the views of the other 92% before giving an answer.

[Obie]

Well it will appear that Mrs May has built a wall of Intransigence, such that the views of 52% of leave voters is all that concerns her, in order to appease UKIP. Mrs May has rationalise the far Right UKIP party and give strength to their views.

It will be wrong to say Mrs may represents the views of Scotland. She has no mandate in Scotland. There is only 1 COnservative MP in Scotland.

It is worth noting that even though Scotland's population is about 9% of the UK, it land mass is a third of the UK, the UK's Nuclear Arsenal are stored in Scotland's water.

Scotland is a strategic area of the UK, and hence the reason why the UK cannot afford to lose it. But I believe without a doubt in my mind that Scotland will go, just a matter of if but when.

I watched MP Jacob Rees-Mogg on question time last week with disgust, talking about how Scotland should not have a referendum, talking about how he will not want his country to split as if he owned Scotland, after being the most arrogant of the Tories zealots, the pillar of the Tories intransigent wall.

Scotland must be allowed to determine its future path. Having sunk the ship, Tories cannot be allowed to puncture the Scotland's Life Jacket.

[Wanderer]

Scotland has already had a referendum. They voted to remain.

Can't keep claiming best out of three, five, seven until the minority get what that want.

Remember in any case a referendum is like an MOT test, only reflects the car's condition on the day, they are a poor measure of true opinion.

[Obie]

Well no one is denying that, but it is safe to say that there has been a material change since 2014 such that the Scots should be able to decide if they want to stay in a Brexit UK or not. I believe that is reasonable enough.

[ouflak1]

Scotland has already had a referendum. They voted to remain.

But one of the major reasons, if not the most important reason, that the Scottish public was persuaded to vote to remain was their membership in the EU. Even the EU itself was forced to make a statement at the time that Scotland did not have guaranteed membership in the EU if they left the United Kingdom (a scare tactic based on a naive assumption on how the eventual Brexit vote would go).

Clearly they were betrayed and misled. Scotland is not wrong by any measure. But I just don't see a realistic way they leave the UK before Brexit is done and dusted. The only way I see forward to prevent their eventual departure afterwords is some compromise allowing for continued presence and participation of Scots in the EU. And that doesn't seem to be on the horizon either.

It is disappointing to see that where there are obvious paths forward for compromise and working together for everybody, all we are seeing is petty bickering. Overrall, the leadership in this mess (UK, EU, and Scotland) has really been poor.

[secret.simon]

I disagree. I think both Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon are very wily political animals. One ought not to dismiss them so lightly. Currently both of them are circling each other warily, waiting for the right time to pounce.

I think that Nicola Sturgeon's open invitation for everybody disgusted with the Westminster government to move to Scotland is a politically astute move. Having a whole mass of people who are dissatisfied with Westminster move to Scotland before the referendum means that she is effectively building up the votes for #Indyref2. Politically very smart.

[rooibos]

Tory governments have an history of killing political opponents in occupied territories, Northern Ireland being only the most recent example, but we can go back to South Africa or the Indian subcontinent.

If the rabid right wing of the Tories had their way, they'd actively pursue this policy.

What would prevent a British government, once free from the European Union and potentially the European court of human rights, from declaring the SNP a terrorist organisation?

[Wanderer]

Tory governments have an history of killing political opponents in occupied territories, Northern Ireland being only the most recent example, but we can go back to South Africa or the Indian subcontinent.

If the rabid right wing of the Tories had their way, they'd actively pursue this policy.

What would prevent a British government, once free from the European Union and potentially the European court of human rights, from declaring the SNP a terrorist organisation?

NI and occupied territory? I don't think so.

Better stay off the crack pipe....

[secret.simon]

What would prevent a British government, once free from the European Union and potentially the European court of human rights, from declaring the SNP a terrorist organisation?

The SNP would need to have an armed wing to justify being classified as a terrorist organisation. So long as it is wholly civilian, it would be fine.

As regards Irish unification, I think it is only a matter of time.

[Wanderer]

What would prevent a British government, once free from the European Union and potentially the European court of human rights, from declaring the SNP a terrorist organisation?

The SNP would need to have an armed wing to justify being classified as a terrorist organisation. So long as it is wholly civilian, it would be fine.

As regards Irish unification, I think it is only a matter of time.

Presumably with an all-Ireland version of Germany's Solidaritätszuschlag?!

[Obie]

One should be careful not to underestimate the British Government, especially the Tories. They had previously classified Nelson Madela as a Terrorist to further their interest, even though Mandela never lifted a Bullet at anyone.

In the UK we have in our law books offense for glorification of terrorism.

Therefore if these laws were in place at the time mandela was classified as Terrorist, many would have had terrorism convictions attached to their names.

This glorification of terrorism law will be unconstitutional in a country like America. However we have them here.

If the government were ton classify the legitimate government of the Scotts it will speed up the demise of the Union. It will be wholly counter productive. Similar or even more problematic tham the situation of Hamas in the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

[Wanderer]

One should be careful not to underestimate the British Government, especially the Tories. They had previously classified Nelson Madela as a Terrorist to further their interest, even though Mandela never lifted a Bullet at anyone.

By that distinction Hitler and Stalin were innocent parties......

[blondesafari]

One should be careful not to underestimate the British Government, especially the Tories. They had previously classified Nelson Madela as a Terrorist to further their interest, even though Mandela never lifted a Bullet at anyone.

In the UK we have in our law books offense for glorification of terrorism.

Therefore if these laws were in place at the time mandela was classified as Terrorist, many would have had terrorism convictions attached to their names.

This glorification of terrorism law will be unconstitutional in a country like America. However we have them here.

If the government were ton classify the legitimate government of the Scotts it will speed up the demise of the Union. It will be wholly counter productive. Similar or even more problematic tham the situation of Hamas in the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

Actually, I believe that using Nelson Mandela as an example is a poor choice. If you read the court transcripts, you will find that he and the others found guilty at the Rivonia trials were planning a bombing of innocent men, women and children. This plot was at a very advanced stage. I think it would be in everyone's interest to remember that there are other points of view on this site, but that immigration is the common denominator, and THAT is the reason this site exists, rather than political viewpoints.

[secret.simon]

Actually, I believe that using Nelson Mandela as an example is a poor choice. If you read the court transcripts, you will find that he and the others found guilty at the Rivonia trials were planning a bombing of innocent men, women and children. This plot was at a very advanced stage. I think it would be in everyone's interest to remember that there are other points of view on this site, but that immigration is the common denominator, and THAT is the reason this site exists, rather than political viewpoints.

Interesting piece of knowledge.

Immigration, which changes the demographics of a nation and eventually its identity, is inherently political. So avoiding politics on these forums is difficult, if not impossible. Though I concur with you that people should be more moderate in their expressiveness.

[Obie]

Well this section is designed to discuss political matters associated with the EU referendum and it's effect on other region. We intend for it to stay that way.

This thread is not opened to discuss Apartheid, which was one of the greatest crime against humanity.

Suffice to say, no institutions of Apartheid has any legitimacy and credibility. It's courts , it's show trial, it surpression of the majority population, it extra judicial killing. I don't intend to go on. Please let's don't hijack this thread. Apartheid was an illegitimate regime. Once one bears that in mind, everything falls into place.

[blondesafari]

I still think you should then stick to the topic to hand in this topic then.

[Wanderer]

In the words of The Sex Pistols, no-one is innocent, even though it doesn't apply in the context of the song, it's a good figure of speech.

[Obie]

I still think you should then stick to the topic to hand in this topic then.

I had fully stuck to the topic until you sought to attack me for a comparison I had made, and then seek to provide legitimacy to the judicial system of Apartheid South Africa, something I found most troubling, and many decent people will also.

[blondesafari]

unfortunately, you don't tolerate any opinion that differs from your own, and you put people down in a bullying manner. Unless you own this website, other people have opinions too, and should be able to debate the topics with you. Yours is not the only opinion on the forum, and it would be better if you voiced your opinion, or disagreement in a polite, civil manner. You may learn something.

[blondesafari]

unfortunately, you don't tolerate any opinion that differs from your own, and you put people down in a bullying manner. Unless you own this website, other people have opinions too, and should be able to debate the topics with you. Yours is not the only opinion on the forum, and it would be better if you voiced your opinion, or disagreement in a polite, civil manner. You may learn something.

[Obie]

Well it is unfortunate that you felt that way. I respect the views of everyone, and i do learn from every one even little children.

However it gets a bit problematic when a trial that was criticised by the United Nations and criticised in the whole world and result in sanctions imposed on a regime, being used to throw aspersions on a parallel i drew with another matter.

I deeply regret if you felt i was being too harsh. I have no problems with you as an individuals, it is the views that troubled me a bit. Anyway I guess we can draw a line on this.

[blondesafari]

Thank you, I'm happy to do that.