Work permit in Germany for UK residence.

[Hamster127]

Hi everyone.

I am a non EU-citizen, with a UK residence permit.

I got a job in Germany, that I know for certain is qualified for a German work permit. However, I have the following questions:

1. Can I get a work permit in Germany, while also maintaining my residency in the UK? (i.e. can I have 2 visas in 2 different countries?)
2. How long does it take to get a work permit? (roughly of course)
3. Other than an official acceptance letter from the workplace, identification (passport etc.), proof of residency in the UK (bank statements etc. at home address) and proof of available money, what other documents does one need?


4. http://www.india.diplo.de/contentblob/4 ... antrag.pdf is this the official application form?


Cheers.

[CR001]

What 'UK Residence Permit' visa do you have?

[Hamster127]

Indefinite leave to remain. I meant to write settlement status. Sorry.

[Hamster127]

Btw. I think the above link is for people from India?
I found this http://www.uk.diplo.de/contentblob/3401 ... Permit.pdf

Is this the proper one? Cheers.

[CR001]

ILR is not a visa.

You should be aware that ILR is not 'indefinite' if you do not live and work (i.e. settled) in the UK. It is lost if you are absent for 2 or more years.

If you are applying from India, follow the process. If you are applying from the UK, then follow that process. You don't state where you currently are or how long you have been out of the UK.

Surely it would make sense to apply for British citizenship, it would make things easier.

[Hamster127]

ILR is not a visa.

I was not aware of that. I thought it was like a visa.

You should be aware that ILR is not 'indefinite' if you do not live and work (i.e. settled) in the UK. It is lost if you are absent for 2 or more years.

I realise that. Interestingly enough, I am not sure if the 2 year is a 100% limit. As in, if it is less than 2 years, I think there is no problem, but if it is more than 2 years does not automatically you mean you loose the settlement status. At least, that's how I was given to understand it.

Anyway, the job is for 2 years, so that should not be a problem.

If you are applying from India, follow the process. If you are applying from the UK, then follow that process. You don't state where you currently are or how long you have been out of the UK.

Surely it would make sense to apply for British citizenship, it would make things easier.

Strangely, the link does say India. No idea why. I am not from India, and I am not in India. Sorry about the confusion. I am currently in the UK.

Surely it would make sense to apply for British citizenship, it would make things easier.

You are right that applying for British citizenship would make sense, but how long would it take? Surely a few months at the least. Could I start the application process while being in the UK, but than get a work permit and live in Germany? Would my application for the citizenship still be considered normally, or would it nearly guarantee a no. Further, would it make applying for the work permit more complicated?
Too many questions

Cheers for helping.

[CR001]

1. ILR is a status. A visa has an end date.

2. Yes, the 2 years is mostly finite unless you have a substantial amount of your estate here. If you try to re-enter the UK after two years and get a difficult IO, you could be refused entry. You could also apply for a returning resident card, but many have been refused.

3. Yes you technically could apply for BC and then leave but if HO checks and follows up with you, you will fail the 'future intentions' requirement. There have been refusals about this too.

[Hamster127]

Thank you very much for your answer, it is very much appreciated.

2. Btw. how long do you have to be in the UK over the 2 years for the problem not to arise? For example, if you only left 10 months altogether of the 2 year period, that would surely not constitute absence from the UK. Is there a clear line, where you are clearly considered to be mainly residing in the UK?

3. If I were to do that, I would of course clearly state that I intend to leave for the next 2 years. However, I would argue that it is not contradicting my `intention to remain' in the UK, and that the 2 years work experience is rather to increase my employability in the UK. I would have to check with an expert of course whether something like this would be a valid reason. I understand that it is not something one can clarify in a forum.

Cheers and thanks for the help.

[CR001]

2. If you leave for 10 months, no issue re ILR.

3. Stating that will almost certainly result in a refusal of BC.

[Hamster127]

Thanks for the replay.

May I ask again, is there a fixed amount of time you have to be in the UK over a 2 year period? Is such an information given?

Cheers.

[CR001]

No there is not but you should be aware that short visits to the UK will not necessarily maintain ILR status. However there are limits to your absence if you aim at some point to apply for Citizenship.

[secret.simon]

See similar threads.

Paragraph 20 of the Immigration Rules states that indefinite leave to enter or remain will lapse where a person has remained outside of the UK for a period of more than two years and they will have no claim to admission as a returning resident.

As I understand it (others disagree with my interpretation), UK law focusses on residence. So short visits do not reset the clock, because a short presence in the UK does not indicate that you are resident in the UK.

On each entry into the UK with ILR, the Immigration Officer at the airport will look at your absences from the UK and may question you on the length of time you have spent outside the UK. That interview is effectively an assessment to see whether you are a returning resident or not. He may cancel your ILR on the spot and stamp you in as a visitor, which will automatically invalidate your ILR. The IO may also look at other factors to see if you have strong ties to the UK.

In short, your ILR status remains subject to its assessment by the Immigration officer each time you re-enter the UK.

In contrast, EU law looks at absences. So, after getting PR in Germany for example, you can retain it provided you fly to Germany every two years, have a hamburger at the airport and fly right out again. You of course need to prove that you actually were in Germany, which is harder with an EEA passport.

You may be better off remaining in the UK for a further year and applying for British citizenship. British citizenship (at least as currently defined) is for life. And based on it you can work in Germany till at least March 2019.

[Hamster127]

@secret.simon

Please correct me if I am wrong, but the whole assessment only starts if were abroad for MORE than 2 years right?
As in, if I am in the UK non-stop till 2017, than go to Germany to 2019 (minus say 1 month, and occasional visits) I have the right to maintain my settlement status, right?

So, if the job is only for 2 years, I think it should all be OK. As for the British Citizenship, it would, I presume, take more than a few months to get. As such, it is a little out of the question for me right now.

Thank you all for the help and advice.
Cheers.

[secret.simon]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but the whole assessment only starts if were abroad for MORE than 2 years right?
As in, if I am in the UK non-stop till 2017, than go to Germany to 2019 (minus say 1 month, and occasional visits) I have the right to maintain my settlement status, right?

Firtsly, under UK law, settlement status/ILR is not a right, but a grant and is subject to ongoing assessment.

As I understand it, the Returning Resident assessment is done each time you enter the UK after an absence of less than two years. Which is why IOs will have a chat/question even people on ILR who have been away for a couple of weeks or months. Those answers are a quick assessment of whether you are resident in the UK or just visiting.

If you return after two years, your ILR will have automatically lapsed (Paragraph 20 referred to above), unless you had strong ties to the UK (Paragraph 19 referred to above). So the assessment made by the IO will be a different one, whether your ties to the UK are so strong as to exempt you from Paragraph 20.

So, take your case. You move to Germany for a year and a half. On your return to the UK, the IO asks you, among other questions, where you work. You answer Germany. He asks where you stay. You reply with friends. He asks if you have property in the UK. You reply in the negative. He may then cancel your ILR on the spot and issue you with a visitor visa, because you are obviously not a returning resident but merely visiting.

Here is a ten year old thread on somebody's ILR being cancelled at a year and eight months. The law in this area has not changed much in the past ten years, to the best of my knowledge.

To the mods: as this thread seems to turn on rules regarding ILR, would it make more sense for the thread to be moved to the ILR forum?

[Hamster127]

@secret.simon

Thanks for the answer. Hmm... its a bit different than what I had expected.

Let me put it like this. If you return to the UK regularly (say every 2-3 months), have family here (parents, siblings, who also have at least ILR), your parents own (not just rent) a house (but you don't), you are returning to visit your family and your job in Germany has a clear! end-date after 2 years, do you think that the IO would consider this person to be resident in the UK?

I.e. would this be reason enough to keep the settlement status?

Btw. about moving the thread. I think it is a valid comment, and I am all for the mods moving this thread.

Cheers.

[CR001]

Assuming you are over 18 and an adult, what your parents or siblings have is irrelevant to you and your ILR status.

[Hamster127]

Assuming you are over 18 and an adult, what your parents or siblings have is irrelevant to you and your ILR status.

But does it not factor into the argument of the UK being ones home, rather than just a place one visits to drink warm bear .

I mean, it might not be a waterproof reason all on its own, but do you think its completely irrelevant in the bigger picture?

[secret.simon]

Hmm... its a bit different than what I had expected

A more common thought than you think.

If you return to the UK regularly (say every 2-3 months), have family here (parents, siblings, who also have at least ILR), your parents own (not just rent) a house (but you don't), you are returning to visit your family and your job in Germany has a clear! end-date after 2 years, do you think that the IO would consider this person to be resident in the UK? I.e. would this be reason enough to keep the settlement status?

The IO may certainly consider these factors. But at the end of the day, his judgment will be based on your actions.

It is perfectly possible for a family to be dispersed across multiple countries, even continents (we are an immigration site and we see that all the time). So the weightage given to that may not be that high.

Also, your job in Germany may be for two years, but it could be extended or made permanent or you may get another job either in Germany or elsewhere outside the UK. You opted to reside in another country for work purposes for a two year period and that could be counted against you. It could also be interpreted as demonstrating the lack of strong connections to the UK.

Your visiting the UK regularly may actually underscore the point. You come in as a visitor for short trips, not as a permanent resident, because you are not actually resident in the country.

Some further points
- I could be wrong. My analysis is based on the Rules that I quoted and instances that people have reported on these forums. I have mentioned that others disagree with my interpretation. But I suggest that you plan on the assumption that I could be right.
- Remember that a lot of this comes down to the Immigration Officer at the gate when you return.
- You will now understand my suggestion for applying for naturalisation before leaving (if you are eligible of course). Citizenship (as of now) is for life and is unaffected by absences from the UK.

just a place one visits to drink warm bear.

There are some alternate places you may wish to explore for different types of bear.

[Hamster127]

@secret.simon

Thank you for your answer.

You are right that one can interpret everything in any way one wants, so to speak. And of course working for 2 years abroad is not exactly in ones favor of settling in the UK.
However, other than for some very small examples, most 1-2 year work abroad would fall under that same category. Is ILR generally a problem in that situation?

- Remember that a lot of this comes down to the Immigration Officer at the gate when you return.

Is it really an individuals decision? What are the guidelines in a case like this? Can one appeal it? If it is just an individuals decision, they can decide however they want, even if you only leave the country for 2 weeks to go to a conference. They could claim you are just trying to get a permanent job abroad. I am being a bit silly but you get my point.

- You will now understand my suggestion for applying for naturalisation before leaving (if you are eligible of course). Citizenship (as of now) is for life and is unaffected by absences from the UK.

But again, surely this takes a lot of time? I would assume 8months minimum.

Btw.

Is it at all possible to simply ask them officially, via, say an email, explain them the exact situation and get an official answer?

Cheers.

[secret.simon]

Is it really an individuals decision?

It is the assessment of the IO at the time of your reentry to the UK. If he is in doubt, he can ask you further questions and escalate internally to his superiors, while you are still in the immigration zone (within the airport).

What are the guidelines in a case like this?

18. A person seeking leave to enter the United Kingdom as a returning resident may be admitted for settlement provided the Immigration Officer is satisfied that the person concerned:
(i) had indefinite leave to enter or remain in the United Kingdom when he last left; and
(ii) has not been away from the United Kingdom for more than 2 years; and
(iii) did not receive assistance from public funds towards the cost of leaving the United Kingdom; and
(iv) now seeks admission for the purpose of settlement.

The IO would of course, in addition to your response, be looking at your travel history, which, if you are a non-EEA citizen, may be visible in your passport. He would then make an assessment if and when you have been resident in the UK in the past.

I believe that any such decision would be appealable. But of course you would be weakening your position at appeal if you leave the UK to resume your work abroad while such an appeal is in progress.

To sum up, ILR requires residence, not mere presence in the UK to retain. And the assessment of residence is made by the appropriate Home office official each time you enter the UK.

A lot of English law (not just immigration law) is based on the concept of a reasonable person. What would a reasonable person conclude about your behaviour? Would such a reasonable person conclude that you are resident in the UK or not? As an aside, that is also the logic behind 12 randomly selected people forming a jury.

But again, surely this takes a lot of time? I would assume 8months minimum.

The alternative may well be losing your ILR and having to start from scratch with a Tier 2 or Tier 4 visa, under the rules as they are at the time of application.

Is it at all possible to simply ask them officially, via, say an email, explain them the exact situation and get an official answer?

If it were that easy, this forum would have no raison d'etre. This forum exists because while government departments give broad guidelines about their procedures etc, their application in the case of individuals is not responded to , except if you were to make an application to them.

You can make an FoI request about specific documentation, such as guidelines and/or procedures and/or rules on a specific aspect. But you will not get a response if you asked them the kind of question that you asked in this forum (how does the law apply to my specific circumstance).

Have a look through WhatDoTheyKnow. You can also file an FoI request through them.

[Hamster127]

Thanks for the comprehensive answers secret.simon.

I will have to think about things now. Maybe speak about a solicitor, see what they think about my specific case etc.

Damn, everything in life is sooo complicated.

Cheers.

[secret.simon]

On these forums, we have found that even solicitors are wrong on immigration law. At the end of the day, whether he is right or wrong, he gets paid. So you may wish to shop around and try a few rather than go to just one.

Also, if you do go to a solicitor, please show them this thread and ask them for their opinions on it.

In my own case, the way I approached the hassle of immigration law was that I decided that migration to the UK was my choice and hence it is up to me to ensure that I meet all the requirements, cross the ts and dot the is, and keep abreast of the law. My immigration was my choice and hence my responsibility. I had to meet the requirements and countries did not have to bend to meet my circumstances.

At the end of the day, I think before approaching a solicitor, first you should start by deciding what is more important to you (the job or the ILR) in both the short and the long term and which one you are willing to sacrifice. Once you know your eventual goal, making decisions will be much easier.

Best of luck to you with your journey.