Romanian Marrying a Syirian citizen in RO or the UK

[Richard W]

Yes we can both go to Ecuador for instance. But I need to be resident there in order to get married at the Embassy.

Should I do this at the Embassy? Is there a country that does not require any of us to be residency in order for the marriage to be performed?

I wasn't suggesting you get married at the Romanian embassy, if that is what you are thinking of.

You would use a registry office (or a registrar's services at another location). However, it seems that there are only three (more precisely, 3 agencias, which may mean something different) which can conduct marriages for non-resident foreigners. A big issue I've now found with Ecuador is that you will need 12-X visas to marry, and these appear to require a return ticket. Now you (but not your girlfriend) could actually obtain one in Ecuador, which might reduce the financial risk, but I have no idea how long it would take to get one.

Do your own research on Tanzania.

For your immediate purposes, your marriage does not need to be recognised by Syria.

Meanwhile, remember that the refused marriage visa is evidence of a relationship. On the other hand, I agree that your girlfriend will not be allowed on a *visit* to the UK. I've been in the same boat - the only way my wife would have been allowed into the UK was as a fiancée or as a wife.

Apply for an EEA family permit. Once here apply for a 5 year residence card. That is the only route available to you as an EU citizen in the UK. She will then need 5 years residence before she qualifies for PR.

I think the Spanish or Greek border might be accessible. However, the only likely EEA route is as a wife.

[tmonaghan]

There is a difference between providing guidance about Immigration Rules and assisting someone to bring their partner into the UK by circumventing UK/EU Immigration Rules to a couple who is obviously going to enter into a marriage of convenience. You guys are amazing and doing your best to help Epsilonn and he already received more than most. This thread is getting way out of control and I would like you to know that it does not look very good. Eventually the Home Office will have to make a decision based on the genuity of their relationship. There is a line that I would not cross; but you have done so.

[Richard W]

... to a couple who is obviously going to enter into a marriage of convenience.

It's not obvious. If the Syrian lady would marry the OP just to leave Syria, but regards marriage as a life-long commitment, then it is not a marriage of convenience.

I heard of people getting married under different rules without the possibility of ever getting divorced. This is something that an acquaintance of mine did with his girlfriend from Philippines. They got married in Hungary at the Embassy of Philippines and they got a marriage certificate 'for life' to show UK authorities how strong their relationship is. Because he works in the UK, just like me. She is non-UE. They met in RO anyway...

In most of the world, having a "marriage for life" is no different to any other marriage. It will not have impressed the Home Office any more than most other marriages. (The exceptions are time-limited marriages, which are allowed under Islamic law.)

[tmonaghan]

Richard W, they saw each other once for a week in a space of a year. The OP is going to marry her to live in the U.K. because he now knows better how to work around the rules in place to protect the United Kingdom from unwanted individuals. The Home Office will deny her leave to enter the UK because they are not a genuine couple regarless of how they feel towards each other. She was refused a Visit Visa because they never met before. If they want to be together let them move to Romania.

[wegiwegi]

I don't know about Tanzania, but in Ecuador, you have to reside 75 days before the date of your marriage.

The only place, I know in the world, that you can marry same day you get there, is in Las Vegas.

[tmonaghan]

I don't know about Tanzania, but in Ecuador, you have to reside 75 days before the date of your marriage.

The only place, I know in the world, that you can marry same day you get there, is in Las Vegas.

Really? Epsilonn would have better chances to relocate back to Romania with her future Spouse where they/she can stay there for a while until they can sort things out with the UK Home Office. When Epsilonn will be submitting their application to reside in the UK under either UK Immigration or EU Immigration rules; the HO will be presented with some documentation indicating that they both married in a third Country with the intent of circumventing immigration rules that apply to NON-EU Citizens.

You giving them false hope even though they might be able to marry in Las Vegas for example, and the HO will undoubtedly question why they did not marry in Syria or Romania. HO Caseworkers will not lack of intelligence when presented with Epsilonn's application.

As it was mentioned earlier on one of my posts, Epsilonn is best to contact the Home Office from Romania to understand the process in place that would allow both Epsilonn and his future wife if they wanted to get married in Romania.

Once the UK leaves the EU it will be too late. So instead of expecting them to go to extreme lengths to desperately marry in Countries where it is possible to marry within 24 hours; they should concentrate their intend to marry in Romania. Epsilonn's girlfriend has no Immigration history in Romania whereas she was denied a Visit Vista by the UK Home Office because they never met before. As soon as a new application is submitted by Epsilonn the UK Home Office will suspiciously question their marriage.

Epsilonn went to the extent of asking whether or not she could apply for asylum on an earlier post... In addition, do not forget that Syria is at war and that its people are fleeing their own country to migrate to Europe by millions.

[wegiwegi]

Wasn't giving any hope, just information, and agree with you, he needs to marry in his home country, that's the logic thing to do, instead of looking for other options.

[tmonaghan]

Wasn't giving any hope, just information, and agree with you, he needs to marry in his home country, that's the logic thing to do, instead of looking for other options.

I was not pointing at you for any wrong doing; I commented on the basis that Epsilonn is being mislead when all he has to do is to contact the authorities in Romania to find out what he can do to bring his partner from Syria and under which conditions it can be possible to bring her in.

[Epsilonn]

Thank you all for the information.

Now, couple of things I need to know.

1. I will invite her on a visit visa to Romania and I have all I need for that. There I can marry her and apply for short-term settlement that would lead to long term etc... Then, in time, from UK I can call her using EEA route. Is this correct?

2. Do you think that people from Romania from the Immigrations Office would see her as soomeone that could come to Romania and claim asylum at the end of stay, like UK thought when they rejected my marriage visit visa? Because the visit visa in RO states clearly that I am responsible for everything... But, opinions?

3. Do you think a marriage in Tanzania be perceived as a marriage of convenience in Romania. In Romania there are not 'Spouse Visas' so, considering statement number 2 in this message, do you think that being married in Tanzania would improve my chances of bringing her to Romania when the Immigration Officer is going to analyse my application? I am considering this in case she would have low chances as a simple visitor to me...

4. I bring her to my home country. I marry her there. I spend time with her. I want to bring her here. Life in Syria is harsh enough. UK rejected my application because we have never met. But why would the UY be suspicious if I get married in RO and then I want to bring her to the UK? I spend time with her there and I provide for her. Is that not genuine? Considering that in this world, the only for her to stay with me is to get married, isn't the time spent together afterwards proof enough for a genuine marriage? We are rolling in circles. I mean she cannot visit me because we are not married and we are not married becasue she cannot visit me. So I am trying to live my life and to find a way to be with the one I am supposed to be with.

Please adivise me on these matters.

[Epsilonn]

Also what do you think of bringing her to the UK or RO with a study or work visa?

I know it is a lot of to talk about but I am sure this will help many people understand a lot of things involved. I have seen a lot of threads online but they were very thin with regards to what we are discussing here.

[tmonaghan]

It has been advised that you bring your fiancé to Romania because she might have a better chance to come to Europe via your Home Country. If Romania refused her leave to enter your Country; don't even think about the UK. She will not stand a chance and it's unfortunate that some members of this Forum led you to believe otherwise. It may be that you may not be able to bring her at all. And you should be prepared for the worst case scenario. It is a criminal offence to assist individuals to abuse Immigration rules that are in place to protect the UK from people who may not be eligible for a Visa. Regardless of your honorable intentions; you will be marrying a NON-EU Citizen to enter Europe on false pretences such as through a marriage of convenience. Regardless of how you feel about her; your intention is to marry your online girlfriend to come into Europe on false pretences. You could loose your right to live in the UK for someone you only met once for a week over a period of one year, from Syria and likely to apply for asylum.

[Epsilonn]

It has been advised that you bring your fiancé to Romania because she might have a better chance to come to Europe via your Home Country. If Romania refused her leave to enter your Country; don't even think about the UK. She will not stand a chance and it's unfortunate that some members of this Forum led you to believe otherwise. It may be that you may not be able to bring her at all. And you should be prepared for the worst case scenario. It is a criminal offence to assist individuals to abuse Immigration rules that are in place to protect the UK from people who may not be eligible for a Visa. Regardless of your honorable intentions; you will be marrying a NON-EU Citizen to enter Europe on false pretences such as through a marriage of convenience. Regardless of how you feel about her; your intention is to marry your online girlfriend to come into Europe on false pretences. You could loose your right to live in the UK for someone you only met once for a week over a period of one year.

How to lose the right to live in the UK? The visa can be either accepted or rejected! I am not breaking the law by paying to apply to get a human being here. It is not my fault things work the other way around... Either way, what does everything have to do with losing the right to live in the UK because it seems that now we start a completely different topic?

Why would Romania not accept her on a simple visit with proof and a good portfolio and everything done by the book? The law in Romania allows me to get her there. Why would there even be a reason for RO not to allow her when everything is crystal clear there?

Then I will see about the UK...

[tmonaghan]

Your are addressing yourself to a British Citizen, and the United Kingdom is my Country. I have been unbiased throughout my posts to help you. You'll be best to try to bring her via Romania.

[Epsilonn]

Ok. Please understand that I spoke to so many people and read and wrote so much within the past week that even I cannot believe that this is actually happening.

I want to thank you for all your support. I know what I have to do now. Thank you for everything; for your time and professional support.

All the best,
Nick

[Richard W]

When Epsilonn will be submitting their application to reside in the UK under either UK Immigration or EU Immigration rules; the HO will be presented with some documentation indicating that they both married in a third Country with the intent of circumventing immigration rules that apply to NON-EU Citizens.

And which rule would this be? Are you saying that someone living in the UK cannot marry someone who lives in another country? There are thousands (at least) of us who have done that.

You giving them false hope even though they might be able to marry in Las Vegas for example, and the HO will undoubtedly question why they did not marry in Syria or Romania.

As I understand it, Syrians are divided into three groups - Moslems, Christians and Jews. (There are a few dozen Jews left in Syria.) Yezidis are classified as Moslems. I can find no reports of Zoroastrians in Syria, but there are reports of hidden Zoroastrians amongst nominally Moslem Kurds in Iraq. Perhaps the lady belongs to that group, in which case she will be classified as a Moslem. Syria does not allow Moslem women to marry Christian men, so the only way the couple can marry is for Epsilonn to apostatise and declare himself a Moslem. Is that what you think he should do?

Another country with rapid marriage for foreigners is Malaysia. I've seen advertisements saying that the effective residence requirement can be reduced to 7 days for Australians by means of a special licence. However, there is the problem that Sunni Moslem women cannot marry non-Moslem men in Malaysia, and there might well be problems in establishing that the lady is not Sunni Moslem.

Epsilonn lives in the UK, so why should he marry in Romania? If Romania had the same immigration laws as the UK, he could not bring her to Romania for marriage other than for a visit to marry and then leave - he lives and works in the UK, not in Romania. Now what might make sense is for them to marry in Romania because his family live there, and then promptly move on to live in the UK, where Epsilonn works. In law, their marriage certificate would be the only document they need. I suspect the visa application would have to present a Plan B in case the marriage didn't happen. or she was turned back at the Hungarian or British border.

Epsilonn's girlfriend has no Immigration history in Romania whereas she was denied a Visit Vista by the UK Home Office because they never met before. As soon as a new application is submitted by Epsilonn the UK Home Office will suspiciously question their marriage.

The visa denial is not evidence against the genuineness of the relationship. I hope the refusal will just be seen as the result of there being insufficient evidence to overcome the presumption that Syrians applying for visas are liars.

Epsilonn went to the extent of asking whether or not she could apply for asylum on an earlier post.

That is just as true as 2 + 2 = 5. He asked whether there would be a worry that she might claim asylum, a very different matter. It is this worry that will make visas difficult.

[Epsilonn]

Richard, sorry, a plan B for the visa I apply for Romania yuou mean? In this case, what do you have in mind because I am not sure I understood what you meant by plan B.

Also, my dad is going to make the invitation there. He will declare that I live and work in the UK. I will reserve a plane ticket for her, open a bank account (that is a requirement), show images with my house, images with her family, present our relationship and everything else about us is very clean.

Now, she will come there in a normal visit visa. But I just show I know her and we have a thing together. There nothing more genuine there but to actually show who we are and what we want, which is something clean.

We want to see each other, I maention I take a holiday and come there to see her, after we saw each other in Beirut and the intention is to know each other better, her to see my family, my country, bbasically to develop our relationship. That's it.

She works in Syria, I can show proof of that, has a good family, etc...

Now what I want to do is, obviously marry her while there, this is because I know what I want and this is my free will and right, but this is something I don't mention in my declaration as it would sound as 'intention of marriage of convenience' following a normal visit visa.

Then, do other documents to get her stay there and finally see about the UK.

I want to see her safe for the moment. That is all. Safe! She will normally have to stay there for a while, I will come back in the UK and work. She will live in my house where shill have more than she needs and I will visit her very often. until we figure out what the next step is.

With all this, do you think the Romanian authorities will really have something to object?

Do you have anything to add to the above?

P.S. I will look into what you said about religions. But she is from Aleppo and she is actually Kurdish if that means anything for all this...

[Richard W]

3. Do you think a marriage in Tanzania be perceived as a marriage of convenience in Romania. In Romania there are not 'Spouse Visas' so, considering statement number 2 in this message, do you think that being married in Tanzania would improve my chances of bringing her to Romania when the Immigration Officer is going to analyse my application? I am considering this in case she would have low chances as a simple visitor to me...

I had expected you to be the most knowledgeable person in this discussion when it can to Romanian immigration law. However, there is a Romanian equivalent of a 'spouse visa', name a D/VF 'family reunification' (Rom: Reîntregirea familiei) visa. The referenced page is written confusingly - you may easily give up before reaching the words "străinii căsătoriţi cu cetăţeni români". (And no, my Latin is equal to reading and understanding that page. I started from the English version.)

The basic concept of a marriage of convenience is one which is in name only, being intended to bring the benefits in dealing with the outside world that come from being married.

I don't know what right you have to bring a wife to Romania under Romanian law. It is entirely possible that, just like Britons, you have a greater right to bring a wife to another EEA country than to your own.

[Epsilonn]

Regarding the ''Romanian equivalent of a 'spouse visa', name a D/VF 'family reunification'', I am sorry Richard; with all the haste between work / Forums and reading online / I missed a very important detail. Thank you for pointing that out.

I am looking forward to reading on what you have to say about my latest posts and I will pay attention to everything written in this forum so far.

In my defense, I have left everything to a lawyer here for the past 6 months until that rejection, this being my first ecperience in this matter, I believed everything she had to say and I was just preparing everything to the best of my ability based on her instructions. When I got back from Beirut (where I first saw my beloved), last week, I really started to read about all this...

[Richard W]

Richard, sorry, a plan B for the visa I apply for Romania yuou mean? In this case, what do you have in mind because I am not sure I understood what you meant by plan B.

Now what I want to do is, obviously marry her while there, this is because I know what I want and this is my free will and right, but this is something I don't mention in my declaration as it would sound as 'intention of marriage of convenience' following a normal visit visa.

Have you checked that you are allowed to marry while she is visiting? It is not something one is permitted do on a mere visit to the UK, but different countries have different laws.

To me, the natural thing to do would be to marry your girlfriend with your family in attendance, and then armed with your Romanian marriage certificate, travel to the UK. That's what I thought of as Plan A. However, you may be turned back at the Hungarian or the British border, and then you will need a plan (Plan B) to get your wife back to Syria. To issue most types of visa, the Romanian government needs to be sure that one can leave the country, without being forced back.

She works in Syria, I can show proof of that, has a good family, etc...

It would be bad if she lost her job because she spent too long in Romania without achieving the goal of you two living together permanently.

I trust that you are aware that there is a very high risk of you two breaking up. Stress and separation can destroy a relationship, and there is always the possibility that she will abandon you once she is securely out of Syria. I think you are being rash, but such rashness sometime leads to long-term happiness. (I was lucky that way.)

With all this, do you think the Romanian authorities will really have something to object?

There is a very good chance that they will not trust her to leave Romania voluntarily.

P.S. I will look into what you said about religions. But she is from Aleppo and she is actually Kurdish if that means anything for all this...

I believe there is an official record of her religion. What is recorded for her, e.g. on her birth certificate?

[Epsilonn]

Hi Richard, regarding your latest post, my answers are as follows:

Yes we are allowed to marry while on visit. Would it make a difference to bring that out in my dad's declaration for the invitation or just to state the fact that we want to stregthen our relationship or should I mention marriage while on visit?

After marriage, we will apply for her to live there and that, according to other statements, should not be that hard to achieve... and I cannot think of her abandoning as there would be no point for me now to do all this. We see ourselves together and there is no otherwise... I have been mostly alone for all my life, living only through a couple of disappointments from shallow human beings of the opposite sex that never wanted to settle (too much freedon in the UK maybe?)... All I have been doing ever since I have started talking to my girlfriend is finding a way to be together as she has been closer to me from long distance than any other human has ever physically been here in the UK or Romania... Imagine when I met her face to face; we both felt peace and quiet, even with the rejection letter from UK, we knew and we know there is going to be a way for us to be together.

Why would the authorities think she won't leave when basically I would be the person to be questioned in such a case. I am her 'guarantor' as a safety measure and that is stated in the application... this was not the same with the UK application, which surprised me... as, if I want to guarantee for someone, then I should be able to provide for that someone etc... and, anything goes wrong, I am the one to pay for everything... How to make this clean in front of the authorities in the declaration for the invitation??? I want them not think of her causing trouble etc...

Her religion is 'Zoroastrianism'. Does this make any difference?

[wegiwegi]

It seems your country does long term visas for Marriage to a Romanian citizen

why don't you contact your Embassy, the consular part is in Kensington high Street, sure you can start all the paperwork needed to be able to marry in your country, if you don't ask them and query about it, you will never know how they would think
about it.

When I got married to my wife, I did all the paperwork here in the UK through my Embassy, the did all the checks they needed to do, and after 4 months of paperwork and wait, they decided it wasn't a marriage of convenience , and they allow me to marry her in my country, they gave her a schengen visa I went to pick her up, flew into my country, got married, went for a holiday and got back to the UK a month later, and that was 3 years ago.

You are Romanian, so your best bet is your own country, talk to them, explain the situation, there are humans at the end of the day, and marriages like yours are not the first, and I bet many are still together and happy.

[Epsilonn]

It seems your country does long term visas for Marriage to a Romanian citizen

why don't you contact your Embassy, the consular part is in Kensington high Street, sure you can start all the paperwork needed to be able to marry in your country, if you don't ask them and query about it, you will never know how they would think
about it.

When I got married to my wife, I did all the paperwork here in the UK through my Embassy, the did all the checks they needed to do, and after 4 months of paperwork and wait, they decided it wasn't a marriage of convenience , and they allow me to marry her in my country, they gave her a schengen visa I went to pick her up, flew into my country, got married, went for a holiday and got back to the UK a month later, and that was 3 years ago.

You are Romanian, so your best bet is your own country, talk to them, explain the situation, there are humans at the end of the day, and marriages like yours are not the first, and I bet many are still together and happy.

Wow, @wegiwegi, this is interesting... but is your situation similar to mine? My girlfriend is from Syria... I will do that, as you say, but what obstacles have you faced considering making a parallel to the things I have been confronting, this time my sweetheart being from Syria?

[wegiwegi]

well, my wife is from South America, we knew each other since 2007. I tried first a visa to take her here for visiting, know each other living together, but they refused, saying that she would never leave, etc ,etc and they put a refuse stamp on her passport at the Rio Embassy in Brazil, that is where the British consulate deals with the whole of South America.A few months later, I contacted my own Embassy, I told them I wanted to get married in my own country, they told me all I needed to do, papers needed, etc, so I started that way, that was January 2014, and in August we got married, in September we got here by coach, didn't have the time to get a family permit, so they refused her into the plane, reason why we came by coach, through the channel, and we got the stamp at Dover.
Since then, trying to get a residence card, for nearly 2 years she was signing at the police station, a year ago, we went to sign as usual, and the immigration police was there, they wanted to arrest her and deport her, but after one hour interview, separated, they said, we are ok, we believe your marriage is genuine, end they leave us be.
Couple of months later, the secretary of state, send us a letter, saying she does not need to sign anymore, and because I was exercising my treaty rights, she was able to stay, but needed a residence card to regularise her status.
So we are waiting for the card now.

[Epsilonn]

well, my wife is from South America, we knew each other since 2007. I tried first a visa to take her here for visiting, know each other living together, but they refused, saying that she would never leave, etc ,etc and they put a refuse stamp on her passport at the Rio Embassy in Brazil, that is where the British consulate deals with the whole of South America.A few months later, I contacted my own Embassy, I told them I wanted to get married in my own country, they told me all I needed to do, papers needed, etc, so I started that way, that was January 2014, and in August we got married, in September we got here by coach, didn't have the time to get a family permit, so they refused her into the plane, reason why we came by coach, through the channel, and we got the stamp at Dover.
Since then, trying to get a residence card, for nearly 2 years she was signing at the police station, a year ago, we went to sign as usual, and the immigration police was there, they wanted to arrest her and deport her, but after one hour interview, separated, they said, we are ok, we believe your marriage is genuine, end they leave us be.
Couple of months later, the secretary of state, send us a letter, saying she does not need to sign anymore, and because I was exercising my treaty rights, she was able to stay, but needed a residence card to regularise her status.
So we are waiting for the card now.

That is a story indeed, but why so many years in between initial rejection and actual marriage? What proof did you have to show? By exercising your treaty rights, what do you actuall mean comparing to myself???

What is with 'she would never leave' thing? People after marriage are supposed to stay together... What is this thing that I cannot understand? Why would people get married and then are supposed to leave? We work in the UK and we are part of this country. We want to live with people we love, we support them etc... but maybe I am confusing one thing with another... I am not making the law...

[Richard W]

Her religion is 'Zoroastrianism'. Does this make any difference?

It may not help if her religion is recorded as Moslem on her birth certificate. According to this document about religious issues in Syria from the US State Department web site:

For issues of personal status, the government requires its citizens to be affiliated nominally with Christianity, Judaism, or Islam. Religious affiliation is documented on the birth certificate and is required on legal documentation when marrying or traveling for a religious pilgrimage.

Unfortunately, I cannot find a context for the document, so I don't know how reliable it should be. Inshallah, you'll marry in Romania and it won't be an issue. It would be likely to be a problem if you were considering resorting to marriage in Malaysia (another visa-free country for Syrians).