5 years married and 3 years living in Northern Ireland

[Irishfella]

Hello Folks, My wife is a Thai National. We have been married for 5 years and my wife has been resident in Northern Ireland for 3 years and two months. Does this entitle her to apply for Irish citizenship now as I have also read that it has to be 3 years out of the last 5 years which would mean my wife cannot apply until June 2019.

Also is the rule "resident on this island for 1 year before application" set in stone? As my wife had to go back to Thailand in April 2017 to deal with a family emergency. She has just returned to Ireland after 4 months in Thailand.

Thanks in advance for all your replies

Mike.

[CR001]

Your previous post (an only other post) in 2014 indicates your wife is in the UK on a spouse visa under the UK immigration rules. Is this correct, an initial 33 month visa???

eea-route-applications/can-a-northern-i ... ml#p998917

[Irishfella]

My wife is now on a FLR(M) UK Visa

[CR001]

Are you dual Irish/British?

[Irishfella]

Are you dual Irish/British?

I am yes. Sorry I should have said

I maybe should also state that my wife has received 2 * 1 year Irish visitors visas over the last 3 years. So they have already recognised are situation.

[CR001]

As far as I understand, and as the comments in your previous post state, you would only be considered British if in the UK, which is the basis of the spouse visa your wife has been issued. To be considered only Irish, you would need to renounce your British citizenship, which would invalidate her current visa.

[Irishfella]

As far as I understand, and as the comments in your previous post state, you would only be considered British if in the UK, which is the basis of the spouse visa your wife has been issued. To be considered only Irish, you would need to renounce your British citizenship, which would invalidate her current visa.

Have you got an axe to grind about people born in Northern Ireland considering themselves Irish?
The comments you make above? Please explain how they are helping to answer my question?

I have already stated I have dual nationality in the post above. I do not have to renounce anything to consider myself Irish or British for that matter.

Anyone who doesn't take advantage of the ability to have two passports would be a fool.

Now if you are going to harp back to a post made in 2014. Please state how that is answering my questions above?

Thankyou.

[CR001]

Your tone and rudeness towards me is completely unfounded. I was merely stating how UKVI views, interprets and applies these things. Immigration history is very relevant when a visa is based on one nationality and not the other.

If you want advice or someone to tell you what you want to hear, perhaps you would be better off getting an advisor who gets paid to give you advice regardless of how rude you are.

Good luck!!

[Irishfella]

Your tone and rudeness towards me is completely unfounded. I was merely stating how UKVI views, interprets and applies these things. Immigration history is very relevant when a visa is based on one nationality and not the other.

If you want advice or someone to tell you what you want to hear, perhaps you would be better off getting an advisor who gets paid to give you advice regardless of how rude you are.

Good luck!!

I don't think you understand. My wife has an FLR (M) Visa to live with me in Northern Ireland, which is on the island of Ireland.

I am an Irish citizen, exercising my right under the good Friday agreement to have dual nationality.

My questions are not about the UK Visa.

My wife is entitled to apply for Irish citizenship as she is married to an Irish citizen and living on the island of Ireland for more than 3 years.

It is the Irish citizenship I would like some conformation on.

Sorry if I did not make this clear. And if you did understand that I was asking about Irish citizenship then please explain your comments.

Thank you.

[JAJ]

As far as I understand, and as the comments in your previous post state, you would only be considered British if in the UK, which is the basis of the spouse visa your wife has been issued. To be considered only Irish, you would need to renounce your British citizenship, which would invalidate her current visa.

A dual British/Irish citizen living in Northern Ireland does not need to renounce British citizenship in order for the spouse to apply for Irish naturalisation. Provided the spouse is otherwise qualified- including holding the appropriate United Kingdom visa or immigration status if not a British citizen.

[Irishfella]

As far as I understand, and as the comments in your previous post state, you would only be considered British if in the UK, which is the basis of the spouse visa your wife has been issued. To be considered only Irish, you would need to renounce your British citizenship, which would invalidate her current visa.

A dual British/Irish citizen living in Northern Ireland does not need to renounce British citizenship in order for the spouse to apply for Irish naturalisation. Provided the spouse is otherwise qualified- including holding the appropriate United Kingdom visa or immigration status if not a British citizen.

Thanks JAJ for the reply

No British or Irish citizen has to renounce either citizenship whilst holding both an Irish and British passport

There are millions of dual Irish and British passport holders

Can anyone please confirm of the 3 out of 5 year rule still applies? Does 3 years out of 3 years meet the criteria?

Thank you.

[jlad]

If you are the spouse or civil partner of an Irish citizen who is applying for Irish citizenship, you must meet the following conditions:

•You must be married to or in a recognised civil partnership* with the Irish citizen for at least 3 years
•You must have had a period of 1 year's continuous reckonable residence - see below - in the island of Ireland immediately before the date of your application, and during the 4 years preceding that, have had a total reckonable residence in the island of Ireland amounting to 2 years. Altogether you must have a total of 3 years reckonable residence out of the last 5 years.
•Your marriage or civil partnership must be recognised as valid under Irish law
•You and your spouse or civil partner must be living together as husband and wife or civil partners
•You must be of full age, good character and intend to continue to live on the island of Ireland
•You must have made a declaration of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the State.

For more Information, visit http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/mo ... riage.html

So in short, your wife would be able to apply from Northern Ireland to become Irish citizen provided that all the documents required are presented and have proper visa and reckonable residence in NI for 3 years. Hope this help and all the best.

[Irishfella]

That's very helpful jlad. Thank you

[JAJ]

Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service (INIS) information on naturalisation:
http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP16000022

The law and underlying policy talk about "reckonable residence" rather than physical presence. Your wife was absent in Thailand for a few months but presumably remained resident in Northern Ireland? (Valid U.K. visa throughout, NI driving licence, U.K. tax liability, and so on?). Although it's possible that INIS could be stricter on physical presence and not say so.

Out of interest- once she becomes an Irish citizen she immediately becomes "settled" in the U.K.- and since you're also a British citizen she could apply for British naturalisation immediately as long as she has 3 years legal United Kingdom residence at the time (although there is a physical presence requirement).

Has she checked if she keeps her Thai citizenship upon becoming an Irish citizen? (if this is important to her).

[Irishfella]

Thanks for your detailed reply JAJ

Thialand does not recognize Dual citizenship but does not enforce the rule and many Thias travel with two passports.

[chaoclive]

Out of interest- once she becomes an Irish citizen she immediately becomes "settled" in the U.K.- and since you're also a British citizen she could apply for British naturalisation immediately as long as she has 3 years legal United Kingdom residence at the time (although there is a physical presence requirement).
Has she checked if she keeps her Thai citizenship upon becoming an Irish citizen? (if this is important to her).

FYI Re above:
"Revoking citizenship
The Minister for Justice and Equality can revoke your certificate of naturalisation if:

You obtained it through fraud, misrepresentation or concealment of material facts or circumstances
You have, through an overt act, failed in your duty of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the State
You were ordinarily resident outside Ireland (other than in public service) for a continuous period of 7 years and, without a reasonable excuse, did not register your name and a declaration of your intention to retain Irish citizenship with an Irish diplomatic mission or consular office or with the Minister for Justice and Equality on an annual basis - see 'How to apply' below.
You are also, under the law of a country at war with the State, a citizen of that country
You have, by any other voluntary act other than marriage or registration of civil partnership, acquired citizenship of another country." - I'm not sure if this actually means that the spouse/civil partner of a dual Irish/British citizen would fall under this category. Probably not because the spouse of a British citizen does NOT become a British citizen simply due to marriage/civil partnership.

This is taken from here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/mo ... ation.html

[JAJ]

Although the Minister can- in theory- revoke the citizenship of a naturalised Irish citizen who acquires another citizenship, there is no evidence that this is done routinely. Or even if it's ever been done?

Same applies to those naturalised citizens resident outside the island of Ireland. While there is a requirement to register an intention to retain Irish citizenship, there's no evidence that up to now, at least, there has been any enforcement of this requirement. Although there could be a different enforcement culture in future, one would expect some notices from INIS to that effect. Naturalised Irish citizens should not assume that their citizenship will automatically be revoked due to inadvertent non-compliance with this requirement.

[chaoclive]

Naturalised Irish citizens should not assume that their citizenship will automatically be revoked due to inadvertent non-compliance with this requirement.

They should, however, be aware that it's a possibility.

[mgb]

As far as I understand section 8 of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act a woman who marry a irish citizen will get the irish citizenship not via naturalisation and therefore doesn't underly section 19.

[crisbella218]

Hello Folks, My wife is a Thai National. We have been married for 5 years and my wife has been resident in Northern Ireland for 3 years and two months. Does this entitle her to apply for Irish citizenship now as I have also read that it has to be 3 years out of the last 5 years which would mean my wife cannot apply until June 2019.

Also is the rule "resident on this island for 1 year before application" set in stone? As my wife had to go back to Thailand in April 2017 to deal with a family emergency. She has just returned to Ireland after 4 months in Thailand.

Thanks in advance for all your replies

Mike.

Hi Irishfella,

I'll come back to your originally question as seems your getting answers about everything here.

So this is the part that slipped me up for my first application that got refused. The INIS counts anything over 6 weeks as your wife not being resident in the country. So your wife being out of the country for 4 months will not be counted as resident. I was 6 months out of the country in China to give birth (in 2014) and I was a few weeks off the required amount so got refused as I assumed like the British application giving birth or family emergency aboard is counted as an exception. However INIS doesn't look at it the same way, my fault for not reading the application correctly.

However as your wife's leave is within the 1 year before I'm afraid it will count against her and you would be safer waiting one full year from when she returned to the NI. So assuming she returns last thursday for example you would need to make your application in September 2018. Again any periods over 6 weeks within the next year will count as not being resident.

Just for information purposes use this calculator from INIS: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Na ... Calculator and for NI purposes use stamp 1 for working out the residence period. Again exclude any periods over 6 weeks so for example in first row would be the earliest (or when she starting living in NI) you can put in should be september 2012 until she left for thailand in April and then next row the start date she return to NI and todays date the second one. This calculator will tell you if you are not allowed to apply. But as I have stated I think its a no anyway.

Hope that helps!

Good Luck

[Irishfella]

Hello Folks, My wife is a Thai National. We have been married for 5 years and my wife has been resident in Northern Ireland for 3 years and two months. Does this entitle her to apply for Irish citizenship now as I have also read that it has to be 3 years out of the last 5 years which would mean my wife cannot apply until June 2019.

Also is the rule "resident on this island for 1 year before application" set in stone? As my wife had to go back to Thailand in April 2017 to deal with a family emergency. She has just returned to Ireland after 4 months in Thailand.

Thanks in advance for all your replies

Mike.

Hi Irishfella,

I'll come back to your originally question as seems your getting answers about everything here.

So this is the part that slipped me up for my first application that got refused. The INIS counts anything over 6 weeks as your wife not being resident in the country. So your wife being out of the country for 4 months will not be counted as resident. I was 6 months out of the country in China to give birth (in 2014) and I was a few weeks off the required amount so got refused as I assumed like the British application giving birth or family emergency aboard is counted as an exception. However INIS doesn't look at it the same way, my fault for not reading the application correctly.

However as your wife's leave is within the 1 year before I'm afraid it will count against her and you would be safer waiting one full year from when she returned to the NI. So assuming she returns last thursday for example you would need to make your application in September 2018. Again any periods over 6 weeks within the next year will count as not being resident.

Just for information purposes use this calculator from INIS: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Na ... Calculator and for NI purposes use stamp 1 for working out the residence period. Again exclude any periods over 6 weeks so for example in first row would be the earliest (or when she starting living in NI) you can put in should be september 2012 until she left for thailand in April and then next row the start date she return to NI and todays date the second one. This calculator will tell you if you are not allowed to apply. But as I have stated I think its a no anyway.

Hope that helps!

Good Luck

Hello crisbella218, thank you for the very detailed reply. You are correct. The calculator states my wife has 3 years residency but only 28 reckonable days. So looks like we are waiting until next September

Am I correct in thinking that my wife can still have a holiday back home in Thailand next year, as long as its less than 6 weeks?

Thanks, Mike.

[crisbella218]

Irishfella,

As long as she stays under the 6 weeks period I think she should be fine. But I would only do a max of 3 week to be on the safe side. If she does take 3 weeks I would factor that into the time when you apply. i.e. 31st August 2018 + 3 weeks.

Sorry couldn't give you any good news!

Good luck.

[JAJ]

Naturalised Irish citizens should not assume that their citizenship will automatically be revoked due to inadvertent non-compliance with this requirement.

They should, however, be aware that it's a possibility.

Being "aware" of something doesn't really add any value in itself- what specific actions would you suggest someone in this situation take?

[chaoclive]

Naturalised Irish citizens should not assume that their citizenship will automatically be revoked due to inadvertent non-compliance with this requirement.

They should, however, be aware that it's a possibility.

Being "aware" of something doesn't really add any value in itself- what specific actions would you suggest someone in this situation take?

I'd advise them to know the risks. End of.

Do you think that a lack of knowledge about the possibility of losing Irish citizenship is a good thing?

[Irishfella]

Hello folks, I recently got a reply from the Citizenship Division of the Irish Justice Department.

I had enquired about periods of absence and the 1 years reckonable residence required before the application date.

I indicated my wife had to leave Ireland and return home this year for a period of 4 months due to a family emergency. From my understanding of the reply which I will paste below, an absence for more that 6weeks does not automatically disqualify your one years reckonable residence as long as a good and acceptable explanation is supplied.

Is my thinking correct? I will paste my original question and their reply below.

Thanks

"Dear Sir/Madam, I am an Irish citizen living in Belfast, Northern Ireland.
My wife is a Thai National and has been legally residing with me in Northern Ireland since June 2014.

I would like some clarification on the “Reckonable Residence” criteria for applying for Irish Naturalisation.

My wife has lived in Northern Ireland with a British Spouse visa since 3rd June 2014. We have had a number of foreign holidays since June 2014. Will this time spent outside of Ireland on holiday count towards my wife’s reckonable residence?

Also my wife’s Father took ill in April 2017 and my wife had to return to Thailand to look after him. She was out of Ireland for 4 months and returned to Ireland in August 2017. I understand that my wife has to have
366 reckonable residence before she can submit an application for citizenship. Is there any special arrangements made for those applicants who had to leave Ireland due to exceptional circumstances?"

"Dear Michael,

Were you born in Ireland if so the following applies to your wife.

Naturalisation of spouse or civil partner of Irish citizens If your application is based on marriage to or being the civil partner of an Irish citizen, you must:

· Have been married to, or in a civil partnership with an Irish citizen
for a minimum of 3 years
· Have been (and are now) living together in an ongoing marriage/civil
partnership of not less than 3 years
· Be of full age (i.e. eighteen years or older, or married if younger
than eighteen), when you apply
· Be of good character.
· Have had immediately before the date of the application a period of
one year’s continuous residence in the island of Ireland, and
· Have had, during the 4 years immediately preceding that period, a
total residence in the island of Ireland amounting to 2 years.
· Intend in good faith to continue to reside in the island of Ireland
after naturalisation and
· Make a declaration of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the State

Please be advised that a person is entitled to be absent from the country for up to 6 weeks in total in any one year without it having any consequence on their application for naturalisation. Absences of more than 6 weeks need to be listed and a brief note explaining the reason for each absence.


Regards

xxxxx
Citizenship Division