My Italian citizenship was cancelled!

[DavidFratelly]

Hello, my name is xxxxx I have dual nationality(Brazilian and Italian), and I’ve immigated to UK in 2016. My wife came with me and she has the residence card. We both work full time here in the UK.
I was born in Brazil and in order to recognize my Italian citizenship, I’ve made an administrative process in Italy in order to recognize my citizenship jure sanguinis(my grandfather was Italian so I have the right of blood, however due to the long queue on Brazilian consulates, over 10 years, I’ve decided to do it in Italy). After I got recognized I’ve been granted with a certification of citizenship and a birth certificate in italy, so I’ve done my passport on the Consulate and came to UK.
Now I’ve checked on the comune(city) website, and the people who worked on the comune has been arrested due to some fraud done on the citizenship recognition process, as they were providing fake residences to people in order to make them able to do the process in Italy without people actually fixed a permanent residence there(Which was my case, I went to Italy and signed the papers, but I left in a few days and waited the process in Brazil, however I have the right and all the documentation was correct apart from the residence in Italy, which I was not aware it was necessary as I don’t speak Italian and I wasn't aware of the residence thing).
It’s a very complicated situation but now as I lost my citizenship I believe I lost my status as European Citizen in UK? I still have the right to recognize my citizenship but if I leave the UK I think I would lose my residence here and due to the costs involved and the Brexit, I didn’t want to leave the UK, if it would be possible.
I still have my Italian passport and it is and original Document, however as they cancelled my citizenship I believe this document is not valid anymore to provide me the settled status after brexit?
I would like to know what are my options, am I illegal in the UK now? Because I came here as an european and I didn’t do anything wrong apart from a small residence thing in an administrative process in Italy a few years ago, which I wasn't even aware.
Am I possible to request a right to stay in the UK as a Brazilian that came as an Italian but lost my citizenship? Can I appeal from this lost of citizenship in the UK(maybe through ECJ?)?
Are you able to help me? I'm completely lost at the moment and I really don't know what to do. Is it worth to hire a solicitor to try anything or I don't have any chances while I don't do the process again to recognize my italian citizenship?
Thanks.

Kind regards,

xxxxx

Moderator edit: Name removed to protect your personal privacy.

[Obie]

Also see Janko Rottman·

[mgb]

@DavidFratelly

Did you really lost your italian citizenship or do you only assume it?
I guess you got your italian citzenship via descent and not via naturalisation.

[DavidFratelly]

It was cancelled. I’ve contacted the comune and they confirmed
This case is very “rare” as I can’t find answers anywhere, but ai believe this should be against the human rights as what should I do now?

[DavidFratelly]

It was via descent yes, I was never naturalized.

[DavidFratelly]

Also see Janko Rottman·

Thanks for that, I’ve read but I didn’t understand 100% as I’m not a lawyer, but I believe this case was for a person which was naturalized at a certain date. My italian citizenship was given on my birth, but it was not automatically recognized, so the process in Italy was a recognization of citizenship, but it was revoked due to a requirement of being resident on the comune(city) during the entire process, which I didn’t do.

[mgb]

You should read section 20 of the linked judgement. Specially 1(b).

(b) acquisition of the nationality of the State Party by means of fraudulent conduct, false information or concealment of any relevant fact attributable to the applicant;


The magic words are "attributable to the applicant". If the whole thing was attributable to you, you have to know by yourself.
Maybe you should seek legal advice from a italian lawyer.

[Obie]

There is the question of OP's Union Citizenship right which he may lose, the lack of proportionality, and the lack of due process.

I accept to a degree that this matter must me fought from Italy.

Fortunately the UKVI may not be aware of this.

[Richard W]

Exactly what was revoked? I believe it was your certificate of nationality and perhaps your birth certificate? Or are they saying that even if you were born an Italian citizen, you are no longer an Italian citizen? I expect it is just your certificates that have been revoked.

Your right to be in the UK and working depends on your being an Italian citizen, not on whether the Italian government has agreed that you are. In law, you can re-enter the UK on your Brazilian passport and, if need be, prove that you are an Italian citizen. The one part you are probably not prepared for is to demonstrate what the Italian law on the matter is.

The immediate practical problems arise if you lose your passport. A new employer would insist on seeing it.

In the longer term, your right to residence certificate, and your wife's to a new residence card, depends on your having a valid passport. You might also have a problem 2 years after Brexit, by which time you must apply for residence permits.

As I believe you are still an Italian citizen, your next step is to apply for recognition as such from an Italian consulate in the UK.

[DavidFratelly]

You should read section 20 of the linked judgement. Specially 1(b).

(b) acquisition of the nationality of the State Party by means of fraudulent conduct, false information or concealment of any relevant fact attributable to the applicant;


The magic words are "attributable to the applicant". If the whole thing was attributable to you, you have to know by yourself.
Maybe you should seek legal advice from a italian lawyer.

That’s the problem how can I get legal advice from an italian lawyer if I live in the UK? Is it possible to go to the italian court from here? Or maybe sign a document here and send to Italy in the post giving the lawyer the right to go on court on my behalf? Sorry I’m pretty bad with legal things, I’m not sure if I understood it right, but there is a chance?

[DavidFratelly]

Exactly what was revoked? I believe it was your certificate of nationality and perhaps your birth certificate? Or are they saying that even if you were born an Italian citizen, you are no longer an Italian citizen? I expect it is just your certificates that have been revoked.

Your right to be in the UK and working depends on your being an Italian citizen, not on whether the Italian government has agreed that you are. In law, you can re-enter the UK on your Brazilian passport and, if need be, prove that you are an Italian citizen. The one part you are probably not prepared for is to demonstrate what the Italian law on the matter is.

The immediate practical problems arise if you lose your passport. A new employer would insist on seeing it.

In the longer term, your right to residence certificate, and your wife's to a new residence card, depends on your having a valid passport. You might also have a problem 2 years after Brexit, by which time you must apply for residence permits.

As I believe you are still an Italian citizen, your next step is to apply for recognition as such from an Italian consulate in the UK.

The entire process was revoked because not all the steps of the process were met in full, so the judge made withdrawn the entire process.
Yes by the law I’m still Italian, but if even Italy don’t recognize my citizenship at the moment, I don’t believe UK would, right?
I really saw the light in your answer! Maybe it’s possible to do the process again on the Italian consulate in London! But I don’t know if they will ask for my visa or right to stay in the UK, because I have no visas on my passport, and my right to be here is my cancelled italian passport.
I know it’s another jurisdiction and it’s not up to Italy to check if I’m legal in the UK, but I’m not sure if it would be “safe” to do this? Because from the situation now, I know I will need to leave but I have time to plan the things. Maybe there is a way to request to right to stay in the UK while I wait a answer for a new process on the consulate?
Thank you very much everyone for the help, I really appreciate that.

[mgb]

You should read section 20 of the linked judgement. Specially 1(b).

(b) acquisition of the nationality of the State Party by means of fraudulent conduct, false information or concealment of any relevant fact attributable to the applicant;


The magic words are "attributable to the applicant". If the whole thing was attributable to you, you have to know by yourself.
Maybe you should seek legal advice from a italian lawyer.

That’s the problem how can I get legal advice from an italian lawyer if I live in the UK? Is it possible to go to the italian court from here? Or maybe sign a document here and send to Italy in the post giving the lawyer the right to go on court on my behalf? Sorry I’m pretty bad with legal things, I’m not sure if I understood it right, but there is a chance?

There are lawyers which offer their services via internet and can get paid via credit card. You should choose one who has some clue about italian citizenship law.

[Obie]

As I believe you are still an Italian citizen, your next step is to apply for recognition as such from an Italian consulate in the UK.

How do you work that out. The right to citizenship to a person who is not natural born, is dependent on the holder having a form of declaration of Citizenship. For people acquiring it through ancestral links, this is dependent on residential criteria. If the Italian authority is saying the OP did not meet it, and the documents you used to obtain it was fraudulently acquired, then it has an implication on this right.
This is the situation here.

I do not agree with you, that the passport is what makes OP a citizen. This seems to me, with the utmost respect, plainly wrong.

[mgb]

The passport is the thing which prevents that the OP get deported. If the passport is nomore valid for whatever reason the game is over in the UK.
It looks like that the citizenship was canceled from the beginning on. With other words Union Citizenship rights never existed.
The case can only be fought in Italy. If something was fishy on the side of the OP there is no good chance.

[Richard W]

As I believe you are still an Italian citizen, your next step is to apply for recognition as such from an Italian consulate in the UK.

How do you work that out. The right to citizenship to a person who is not natural born, is dependent on the holder having a form of declaration of Citizenship. For people acquiring it through ancestral links, this is dependent on residential criteria. If the Italian authority is saying the OP did not meet it, and the documents you used to obtain it was fraudulently acquired, then it has an implication on this right.
This is the situation here.

As far as I can tell, the certificate of citizenship is akin to the British 'nationality status letter'. Residence determines where one may apply for such a certificate, not whether one has inherited Italian citizenship from a parent. As far as I can tell, it is the OP's contention that he was born Italian, not that he was born with an entitlement to Italian citizenship.

What do you mean by 'natural born'? It seems that the OP was born an Italian citizen.

I do not agree with you, that the passport is what makes OP a citizen. This seems to me, with the utmost respect, plainly wrong.

You have misunderstood what I said about the consequences of the OP being an Italian citizen with no immediate prospect of having an Italian passport. New residence documents and new employment depend on his having an Italian passport. I am not sure of the legal consequences of presenting a cancelled passport to a prospective employer as though it had not been cancelled - I suspect so doing is illegal.

Contrariwise, living and working in the UK lawfully depends merely on whether the OP is an Italian citizen, and deprivation of citizenship cases show that the British courts consider themselves competent to make such a decision, taking only due account of what the relevant government may say.

[Richard W]

The passport is the thing which prevents that the OP get deported. If the passport is nomore valid for whatever reason the game is over in the UK.

(4) Before an immigration officer refuses admission to the United Kingdom to a person under this regulation because the person does not produce on arrival a document mentioned in paragraph (1) or (2), the immigration officer must provide every reasonable opportunity for the document to be obtained by, or brought to, the person or allow the person to prove by other means that the person is—

(a)an EEA national;

The OP can therefore re-enter the UK using just a Brazilian passport plus evidence that he is an Italian citizen. This is another case where non-British EU citizens have greater privileges than a native - none of this business of passportless Britons officially needing a certificate of right of abode.

It looks like that the citizenship was canceled from the beginning on. With other words Union Citizenship rights never existed.

No, the OP jumped the queue to get acknowledgement of his status. We've no indication that he was never Italian.

The case can only be fought in Italy. If something was fishy on the side of the OP there is no good chance.

What case? He's lost some documents, but but for Brexit the OP has every right to stay put in the UK if he can become gainfully self-employed - unless, of course, he is not an Italian citizen. Now, I am not sure how he can prove to the Italian consulate that he is legally resident in the UK. Could he get a relevant stamp in his Brazilian passport?

[Obie]

To be honest Richard, you are just driving me bonkers .

Regulation 11(4) has no application if the OP is not an Italian Citizen by virtue of the fact that citizenship was obtained by fraudulent means.

There are 1 question here to be answered. Does the law in Italy requires a person to have resided for 2 years in Italy if they are seeking to claim citizenship by descent? if the law requires this, but OP did not reside for that length of time, then he is not an Italian. He is therefore not a Union Citizen.

If he is not an Italian Citizen, then the EEA regulations is inapplicable and there can be no argument as he is not a citizen of an EEA State.

I understand you are a person interested in the law, and we have a lot in common in that regards, but we have to take things by stages and mention a legal provision where it applies.

In this case you seem to be getting ahead of yourself here. We are not on the regulation stage yet. The First Question is if OP is a national of an EEA state. According to the Italian authorities he is not. That needs to be resolved, only if it is resolved in OP's favour, would we then come into the EEA regulation 2016.

I do not think the declaration process is akin to the letter confirming British Nationality status. I deal with many Brazilian in this situation, they are not automatic citizen, they have to follow a process.

The confirmation of British Citizen don't confer British Citizen , it simply confirms it. OP needed to fulfill the administrative process to acquire Italian citizenship. Very different process.The closer analogy I will say is the case of those qualifying under Section 4D, 4E and 4F of the British Nationality Act 1981, as amended.

[mgb]

There are 1 question here to be answered. Does the law in Italy requires a person to have resided for 2 years in Italy if they are seeking to claim citizenship by descent? if the law requires this, but OP did not reside for that length of time, then he is not an Italian. He is therefore not a Union Citizen.

The question is if the misbehavior of the italian civil servants is attributable to the applicant.
If not the European Convention on Nationality come into the game.

[Richard W]

There are 1 question here to be answered. Does the law in Italy requires a person to have resided for 2 years in Italy if they are seeking to claim citizenship by descent? if the law requires this, but OP did not reside for that length of time, then he is not an Italian. He is therefore not a Union Citizen.

No!

There are provisions whereby 2 years residence in Italy allows Italian nationality to be acquired. I do not believe they are relevant to this case.

The likely scenario in this case is that:

1) The OP's grandfather was born Italian in Italy and emigrated to Brazil.
2) Said grandfather begot the OP's father, who was born in Brazil before the grandfather became Brazilian. The OP's father was therefore born a dual Italian-Brazilian national.
3) The OP was born in Brazil, and is therefore a dual Italian-Brazilian national.

There seem to be many US citizens who are in this situation (mutatis mutandis), and have found it useful to assert their Italian citizenship. Obtaining acknowledgement is a slow process. It seems to be fastest if one lives in Italy and can therefore do it via Italian local government, bearably slow in the USA and or UK (examples being US citizens transferring from Tier 2 to the EEA route in their own right), and ludicrously slow in Brazil. Residence in Italy is not required. It is necessary to show that a father's Italian citizenship was not lost by naturalisation before the child's birth, and that a subsequent naturalisation by the father did not cause the child to acquire the father's new nationality. There is no problem with the father's subsequent naturalisation if the child acquired the nationality of the country of birth at birth, as happens in both the US of America and of Brazil.

There has been a recent post on this forum about an Australian-Italian dual citizen living in the UK who is having problems obtaining an Italian passport to secure her status in the UK. It supports the idea that documents can be obtained significantly more easily in Italy than abroad.

To be honest Richard, you are just driving me bonkers .

Understandable if we have totally different understandings as to the facts of the case.

Regulation 11(4) has no application if the OP is not an Italian Citizen by virtue of the fact that citizenship was obtained by fraudulent means.

If he is not an Italian Citizen, then the EEA regulations is inapplicable and there can be no argument as he is not a citizen of an EEA State.

True enough, but I do not believe the conditions are satisfied.

The First Question is if OP is a national of an EEA state.

Agreed.

According to the Italian authorities he is not. That needs to be resolved, only if it is resolved in OP's favour, would we then come into the EEA regulation 2016.

I do not believe that they have declared that. What they seem to have declared is that the OP has obtained what may be correct documents by fraud, and have therefore cancelled them. It would be helpful if we had a clear statement from the OP. Perhaps a pointer to an accurate account on the web would help, and then we could read it for ourselves, perhaps with the help of Google translate. Has the judge actually communicated directly with the OP?

The confirmation of British Citizen don't confer British Citizen , it simply confirms it. OP needed to fulfill the administrative process to acquire Italian citizenship. Very different process.The closer analogy I will say is the case of those qualifying under Section 4D, 4E and 4F of the British Nationality Act 1981, as amended.

It is possible that the situation is similar to this, or that Italian law is unclear on the difference, reminiscent of the current practical difference between being an Irish citizen and being entitled to Irish citizenship. (I know people who would be barred from their current work if they were Irish citizens as opposed to being entitled to Irish citizenship, so it makes a big difference to a few people.) I have seen a claim that it is acknowledgement and not acquisition, with the fact that no oath of allegiance needs to be sworn adduced as evidence. However, no oath is required in the acquisition of Irish citizenship by those entitled to it. There may be a similar lack of clarity with the Jamaican citizenship of those born to Jamaican parents overseas. Do they obtain confirmation of their Jamaican nationality or do they acquire it when they get the official confirmation required for a passport? I knew one guy who appeared to be in this situation but denied he was a Jamaican citizen; he should not have been working with us if he was a Jamaican citizen.

[mgb]

I did a short check. The place of residence decide only who is responsible for the application for a recognition of the italian citizenship “jure sanguinis” (by law of the bloodline).
Residence in Italy means the local municipality is responsible. Residence outside of Italy means the embassy/consulate is responsible.
In the case of the OP not the italian citizenship is in dispute but who has the right to recognise his italian citizenship.
I guess here is really a italian lawyer needed to give the best advice.

[DavidFratelly]

To be honest Richard, you are just driving me bonkers .

Regulation 11(4) has no application if the OP is not an Italian Citizen by virtue of the fact that citizenship was obtained by fraudulent means.

There are 1 question here to be answered. Does the law in Italy requires a person to have resided for 2 years in Italy if they are seeking to claim citizenship by descent? if the law requires this, but OP did not reside for that length of time, then he is not an Italian. He is therefore not a Union Citizen.

The law doesn't require to reside 2 years, it doesn't say a time limit. It only says that you must be resident in the comune to start the process of recognition of citizenship. This process is not a naturalization, it's like you as british have a kid on another country(for example, USA), and register the kid there as US citizen. The process that I made is like the same as you bringing your kid to the British consulate so he can acquire the british nationality as the father has.
The only difference is that as the queues on the consulates are taking loads and loads of years, I decided to do my process in Italy(which is 100% legal). However, I didn't fix my residence there in order to start the process, that's the only step which I skipped.

[DavidFratelly]

The passport is the thing which prevents that the OP get deported. If the passport is nomore valid for whatever reason the game is over in the UK.

(4) Before an immigration officer refuses admission to the United Kingdom to a person under this regulation because the person does not produce on arrival a document mentioned in paragraph (1) or (2), the immigration officer must provide every reasonable opportunity for the document to be obtained by, or brought to, the person or allow the person to prove by other means that the person is—

(a)an EEA national;

The OP can therefore re-enter the UK using just a Brazilian passport plus evidence that he is an Italian citizen. This is another case where non-British EU citizens have greater privileges than a native - none of this business of passportless Britons officially needing a certificate of right of abode.

It looks like that the citizenship was canceled from the beginning on. With other words Union Citizenship rights never existed.

No, the OP jumped the queue to get acknowledgement of his status. We've no indication that he was never Italian.

The case can only be fought in Italy. If something was fishy on the side of the OP there is no good chance.

What case? He's lost some documents, but but for Brexit the OP has every right to stay put in the UK if he can become gainfully self-employed - unless, of course, he is not an Italian citizen. Now, I am not sure how he can prove to the Italian consulate that he is legally resident in the UK. Could he get a relevant stamp in his Brazilian passport?

Unfortunately I checked this and the Italian consulate in London only accept process from people who are here as British, European, or have a valid visa for a minimum as 2 years(as the process takes up to 2 years there).
That's not an option anymore

I have the end of the sentence here, if you would like to read (in Italian), please note that there was YES some fraudulent processes, where the person didn't have any right to be Italian at all and they "created" the documentation.(which fortunately is not my case, I have the right of blood and no one can revoke my right, but the right is useless until I recognise my nationality again or revert the situation, or get any visa)

CONSIDERATO PERTANTO CHE:
I procedimenti di iscrizione anagrafica e di riconoscimento di cittadinanza italiana - interessati dal procedimento penale intentato dalla Procura di ** nei confronti dell’allora Ufficiale di Stato Civile, oggi sospeso dal servizio, e definito con la sentenza sopra indicata - presentano, pertanto, gravi anomalie procedimentali, sia perché risulta falsamente attestata la dimora abituale ai fini dell’iscrizione anagrafica, sia perché le istanze di riconoscimento della cittadinanza non sono riconducibili agli iscritti negli allegati elenchi per l’assenza di documento idoneo attestante la provenienza delle domande e delle istanze presentate e la loro imputabilità soggettiva.

Le superiori circostanze rendono insanabilmente viziati i provvedimenti assunti di iscrizione anagrafica e di riconoscimento di cittadinanza italiana e dovuto il presente provvedimento che ha natura vincolata.
In ogni caso per gli interessati di cui ai nominativi negli elenchi allegati al presente provvedimento, l’iscrizione anagrafica ed il successivo riconoscimento dello stato di cittadinanza non poteva essere assunto dallo scrivente Comune di ****, non sussistendone i presupposti di legge.
Evidente, comunque, l’interesse pubblico al presente provvedimento se solo si consideri che gli interessati ben possono oggi accedere al voto con riferimento ad un Comune con il quale non hanno avuto alcun legame, neppure storico.
Senza peraltro dimenticare che i provvedimenti amministrativi se del caso conseguiti sulla base di false rappresentazioni dei fatti o di dichiarazioni sostitutive di certificazione e dell’atto di notorietà false o mendaci per effetto di condotte costituenti reato, accertate con sentenza passata in giudicato, possono sempre essere ritirati dall’amministrazione.
Per le superiori ragioni,
Vista la Circolare del Ministero dell’Interno n. **** dell’8 aprile 1991. Vista la Legge n. 91/1992.
Vista la legge 214/1990 e il D. Lgs. n. 267/200.
Visti gli artt. 38, 75 e 76 del d.P.R. n. 445/2000.
Visto il Dpr n. 223/1989.


ATTESTA
per i nominativi di cui agli uniti elenchi, la non sussistenza di tutte le condizioni stabilite dall’ordinamento per l’iscrizione anagrafica presso questo Comune e per il conseguente riconoscimento di status di cittadino da parte di questa Amministrazione laddove assunto, anche in quanto non competente all’adozione dei relativi provvedimenti.
DICHIARA
che per i soggetti di cui agli uniti elenchi, non poteva essere assunto da questa Amministrazione il provvedimento di riconoscimento di status di cittadino italiano per discendenza ed ancor prima non poteva essere effettuata la loro iscrizione anagrafica.
DISPONE
il ritiro di tutti i provvedimenti di iscrizione anagrafica e di riconoscimento della cittadinanza italiana per i soggetti di cui agli uniti elenchi, con le conseguenze di legge.
che il presente provvedimento sia trasmesso alla Prefettura di ****, alla Questura di ****, al Ministero degli Esteri, Direzione Generale per gli italiani all’estero e le politiche migratorie ed ai Consolati d’Italia per gli atti di competenza.

[nicoleg]

Whatever happened with this?