Do dual EU-UK citizens have rights under EU law?

[Obie]

Good and logical judgment.

Unfortunately not a binding authority, so home office may want to continue pushing its luck.

[reynaldogr]

Good and logical judgment.

Unfortunately not a binding authority, so home office may want to continue pushing its luck.

Hi Vinny,

Could you translate what do you mean in more simple terms for the general audience?
Looking at the decision? was this on favour of Mr Sivakumar and her German Spouse? I can deduct this from item number 7, but then, reading items 8, 9 and 10 it kind of confuse me. Could you please clarify this Vinny/Obi?

Many thanks in advance
Br

[silverman123]

[quote=Ron121 post_id=1606010 time=1520345331 user_id=189362]
I find this court on line .its look like same our situation?
Well it's the time to share my story too with you guys.
I met my eu wife in 2012 and we start to live together since then.
And we got married in may 2013.
And i applied for my residence card in May 2013 and i received my card on November 2013.
So I'm not covered with TA at all and not even close to it.
In January 2018 after my wife became British citizen and after i realised the problem that i put my self in because i was the one who keep pushing her to ne British because of the brexit and all that i was thinking I'm doing the right thing for us.
However i went through lounes cases hundreds of times also i asked many solicitors about my case and they told me that I'm qualified yo apply for my permanent residence under lounes case.
First I would love to thank everyone one who shared their stories.
And let me give you my opinion.
The Home Office hasn't updated their guidance yet.
But from what i understood on suscess82 and ron 121 and another 2 more cases.
the home office will give the applicants either residence card or permanent residence because simply if we all go to court they will lose the case. So what is the point of say no!!!
Probably they are not happy when they give yes to the applications but no other options for them.
Look at suscess82 i know he didn't mention lounes in his case and he is not either covered by TA.
BUT DID YOU GUYS NOTICED THAT THEY TOLD HIM TO APPLY FOR HIS PERMANENT RESIDENCE STRAIGHT AWAY.
IT MEANS THAT THEY ARE AWARE OF DUAL NATIONALITY IN HIS APPLICATION.
SO THIS DIDN'T COME BY LUCK OR THEY DIDN'T SEE HIS DUAL NATIONALITY.
also ron 121 they refused him on 7 November before lounes judgment but after that they withdrawal the appeal and asked him to bring last 5 years of his wife exercising her treaty rights.
I wish him all the luck and for all of us.
Let's support each other here.
Thanks for every one.

[vinny]

Hi Vinny,

Could you translate what do you mean in more simple terms for the general audience?
Looking at the decision? was this on favour of Mr Sivakumar and her German Spouse? I can deduct this from item number 7, but then, reading items 8, 9 and 10 it kind of confuse me. Could you please clarify this Vinny/Obi?

Many thanks in advance
Br

The UKVI had refused a residence card to the spouse of a dual German/UK national on the grounds that the EEA national had UK citizenship.

The Applicant had appealed in the First Tier Tribunal against this refusal.

The Frist Tier Tribunal had allowed the appeal.
The UKVI then appealed to the Upper Tribunal.


8. The Upper Tribunial considered this case in light of Lounes and the Grand Chamber's conclusion.

9. They concluded that Regulation 2’s (as amended?) interpretation of EEA National didn’t really help the UKVI.

10. The Upper Tribunal upheld the First Tier Tribunal’s decision.

[silverman123]

Thanks vinny for your explanation.
This is also the a good point for dual nationality.

[reynaldogr]

Hi Vinny,

Could you translate what do you mean in more simple terms for the general audience?
Looking at the decision? was this on favour of Mr Sivakumar and her German Spouse? I can deduct this from item number 7, but then, reading items 8, 9 and 10 it kind of confuse me. Could you please clarify this Vinny/Obi?

Many thanks in advance
Br

The UKVI had refused a residence card to the spouse of a dual German/UK national on the grounds that the EEA national had UK citizenship.

The Applicant had appealed in the First Tier Tribunal against this refusal.

The Frist Tier Tribunal had allowed the appeal.
The UKVI then appealed to the Upper Tribunal.


8. The Upper Tribunial considered this case in light of Lounes and the Grand Chamber's conclusion.

9. They concluded that Regulation 2’s interpretation of EEA National didn’t really help the UKVI.

10. The Upper Tribunal upheld the First Tier Tribunal’s decision.

Many thanks Vinny, but still don’t quite understand these legal terms. Assuming that Mr Sivakumar application complies with all the rest of the HO requirements, and based on this decision, he then will be issued with a RC, yes or no?

I’m persistence with my question as I’m also planning to add this decision on my application, as well as a print out of the Lounes Case judgement.

Br

[Unluckyeea2]

Hello everybody ,
Thanks to all for updates . @ reynaldogr yes if you mention both Lounes and recent Shivkumar judgement hopefully it will help but In my thouts now all similar to Lounes case people's PR or RC applications firstly will be refused and if they go to court then they will be accepted because still HO has nt implemented 14November Lounes ECJ judgement and Brexit is on the corner after Brexit no need to implement .What will happen to people whose PR is due after March 2019 ?

[Success82]

Hello everybody ,
Thanks to all for updates . @ reynaldogr yes if you mention both Lounes and recent Shivkumar judgement hopefully it will help but In my thouts now all similar to Lounes case people's PR or RC applications firstly will be refused and if they go to court then they will be accepted because still HO has nt implemented 14November Lounes ECJ judgement and Brexit is on the corner after Brexit no need to implement .What will happen to people whose PR is due after March 2019 ?

Hi everyone, I disagree with unluckyeea2's opinion regarding all Lounes related cases ending up in court, as there are thousands of Lounes cases out there. I think the only reason for the ones that ended up in court is the lack of awareness on the part of caseworks and their managers handling those cases. Every case that goes to court cost HO more resources and man power which they cannot afford when they know they have lost more on similar cases (and they have already lost the arguement both in UK court and ECJ). Note that HO might not update caseworker guidance soon, as most goverment recources are towards preparing for brexit. I think the best approach is to mention this cases e.g Lounes, in your application to create awareness and avoid unnecessary delay. I urge everyone on this forum to be possitive and encourage each other instead of creating fear of unkown as this weigh people down emotionally and psycologically. I wish you all the best

[Obie]

I don't think anyone is creating fear, and the people saying that they are likely to refuse are very correct.

Since the Lounes case I have dealt with 2 refusals and in both of the decisions which postdates Lounes, the Home office Quote the regulation 2 definition of EEA national and refused the application. They simply ignored the representations made in relation to Lounes.

So please do not accuse people here of scaremongering.

[Success82]

I don't think anyone is creating fear, and the people saying that they are likely to refuse are very correct.

Since the Lounes case I have dealt with 2 refusals and in both of the decisions which postdates Lounes, the Home office Quote the regulation 2 definition of EEA national and refused the application. They simply ignored the representations made in relation to Lounes.

So please do not accuse people here of scaremongering.

Hi Obie,
Thanks for your submission and experience. Because I do not agree with someone's opinion does not mean that i accused them of scaremongering (Which i assumed you should know). I understand Unluckyeea2 and others in this situation as i was in the same shoe but in my opinion speculating and pessimism is not the way forward but sharing experience and advising way forward for those in the same situation, which i assume this forum is all about. I also know someone not on this forum that got positive outcome just last week and others that already shared thier positive story on this forum. Thank you

[Obie]

. I urge everyone on this forum to be possitive and encourage each other instead of creating fear of unkown as this weigh people down emotionally and psycologically. I wish you all the best

I am not a great fan of the English Language and i make no boast of being knowledgeable of it. However i believe that by definition a person creating fear or fright is a Scaremonger.

Based on the statement you posited, I am not sure that i wrongly accused you.

I will give you a small example.

Since February 2017, i have received 12 application decision on ID requirements. 3 of those applicants did not produce ID and were granted, as Home Office accepted the explanition given. Similar explanitions were given for a further 6 of those case, which were refused and an appeal pending, and the other 3 were overturned following a threat of JR.

It will be silly on the basis of those 6 successful cases for me to come on the forum and say that don't worry people, don't send ID, and you will get residence. That will be wholly reckless.

It is safer for me to say, the requirement to provide an ID is unlawful and there is a high prospect of success. That will be the most accurate thing to say, will it not, even though i have seen some of my cases without ID being successful.

[reynaldogr]

I don't think anyone is creating fear, and the people saying that they are likely to refuse are very correct.

Since the Lounes case I have dealt with 2 refusals and in both of the decisions which postdates Lounes, the Home office Quote the regulation 2 definition of EEA national and refused the application. They simply ignored the representations made in relation to Lounes.

So please do not accuse people here of scaremongering.

Hi Obie,

May i know if in these 2x cases you made reference to, the applicants have mentioned the Lounes Case in their applications? Hope this question will be answer in some point

Many thanks

[silverman123]

I'm totally agree with success82.
The guy is thinking positively specially he was in our situations one day.
Although that he still cares about giving all of us the hope.
I will apply for my PR next month God only knows how i feel.
I'm already panic and i don't sleep at all.
So every time i open my Internet I'm searching for some hopes.
Like success82 and ron121 and wish all the best to salu because he applied last month.
In the same time i respect obie opinion .
Here is my opinion too
As is not really easy to say yes to who those holding dual nationality but in the same time if they will go to court the home office will lose it plus hassle and the coast so what is the point!!!???
Let's support each other here and many thanks to everyone who is trying to help and advice us on every step we do.

[pusched]

I agree with success82.

It is important for people to share their experiences and use it when applying for whatever we need.

Yes it is scary to think HO may refuse the application but remember the law is in our side for now but there's not much we can do but learn of other's experience and do what we need to do. Do all you can when applying, try to be positive but be prepared for the worst. No it isn't ideal and everyone's situation is different but what is the other option? To freak out for weeks/months?

The more I have read about it, the more it is clear the HO will lose. It is illegal after all whether they like it or not. Yes Brexit is just over a year away but there is still the transitional period which will be at least another 2 years and what is becoming clear is that the UK cannot afford to play hard to get. The other EU countries have a point to prove after all.

Yes some cases may be refused due to a useless staff or lack of information from their superiors but they will not want to go to court for every single case and lose so things will eventually change.

[Unluckyeea2]

Dear moderators ,senior Gurus and friends thanks to all for posting updates and sharing stories experiences in this forum to help thousands people . My intention is not creating fear to other friends I am on same boat and worried about mess I got in unknowly if I had known or read this forum before naturalization then I wouldn't be in this mess now it is useful to share stories and views.
I am worried is that Sivkumar hearing was 17 January 2018 after two months 14 November Lounes judgement from ECJ and still HO was refusing to implementing Lounes and fighting in court .I concerned is that if we have to court or PR and RC is not issued before March 2019 and cases are waiting in courts then what kind of status will be the people who are affected ?
@ Pusched they are talking that free movement of people will end during transitional period as soon as Breixit that mean diffrent EEA rule for transitional period ? After Brexit dual nationals Lounes will continue like sole EU citizens rights agreed in Brexit withdrawal Agreement ? Thanks to all for posting updates and sharing views experiences and stories .

[Ron121]

!!!update !!!!! Hello everyone.im so happy today today my Solicetor inform me that the ukvi has written to confirm grant of permanent residence state.i wish all the best to all of you

[Unluckyeea2]

@ Ron121 Congratulations ! Good news . Thank you for updates .They asked you to send evidence that your wife exercised treaty rights for five years is that before becoming BC or after that ? Updates please . Thank you .

[Ron121]

Hi unluck.the ask me to send 5 year of my wife employment from date of marriage May2012 To May 2017 .

[Unluckyeea2]

Hi Ron121 , Thank you for updates . I don't have utilities bills on our name because water,gas and electricity is included in rents so only have council tax bills and TV licence bill .We don't have joint bank account but individual accounts so what evidences they ask for proof of living together updates please . Thank you .

[Unluckyeea2]

Hi Ron121 , Thank you for updates . I don't have utilities bills on our name because water,gas and electricity is included in rents so only have council tax bills and TV licence bill .We don't have joint bank account but individual accounts so what evidences they ask for proof of living together updates please . Thank you .

[Unluckyeea2]

Hi Ron121 , Thank you for updates . I don't have utilities bills on our name because water,gas and electricity is included in rents so only have council tax bills and TV licence bill .We don't have joint bank account but individual accounts so what evidences they ask for proof of living together updates please . Thank you .

[Unluckyeea2]

Dear friends I am typing on mobile so accidentally became multi posts for same post .I am sorry .Thank you to all for updates .

[Ron121]

Hi unluck. This what my Solicetor ask me to send to the .just avdance of work . !!!!As you are aware the UKVI wrote to confirm that they have withdrawn their decision to refuse your application for permanent residence and requested that you forward to them evidence of your wife’s exercise of treaty rights for a continuous period of five years (from the time you became a family member - i.e. in 2012).

[Unluckyeea2]

@ Ron121 , Thank you for updates and please keep updating as you receive PR card . Congratulations again . Thank you .

[silverman123]

Hi ron 121.
I'm sooooooooo happy for you man.
Big big Big congratulations wish you all the best on every step you do.
Can you please do me a favour if you can send me your solicitor contact or website i will apply next month and i need a good solicitor Greatly appreciate if you can me.
Many thanks in advance.